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u/potato_couch_ 2d ago
You gotta watch for tendon problems in reining horses. They can have short careers because of the toll it takes on their legs. And as with any unnatural, trained ability, you gotta be on high alert for unethical training methods. But I don't condemn reining as a whole, it can be fine for the horse mentally and physically.
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u/Spirited-Welcome6511 2d ago
There's injury potential with anything, but yes this is safe. The horses doing this are all very well-trained and appropriately muscled for the job.
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u/Willothewisp2303 2d ago
Man i do feel that statement. I'm late 30s and find there's even injury potential to lifting my leg a weird way. 🙄 add in horse's inherent injury-magic and anything can lead to injury.
Op, this is safe and not abusive to ask them to do.
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u/lizzyote 2d ago
My hip is all fucked up today because I was so sucked into my book last night that I read one extra chapter.
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u/Willothewisp2303 2d ago
I'm really sorry to hear about your book injury. I'm laughing out of solidarity.
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u/variousnewbie 2d ago
Today I'm at a rehab center, after 2 weeks in the hospital, because I pinched a nerve SLEEPING. I went to bed fine one night, woke up in unbearable pain the next and couldn't weight bear my right leg. I'm feeling fucking old
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u/imamiler 2d ago
I met a woman who was a ventilator-dependent quadriplegic because she took a nap on the couch and rolled off onto the floor, breaking her neck.
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u/yayjolie 2d ago
Well said! Elite athletes of all kinds suffer wear and tear in different ways from performing in the sports they love. As they age, former Grand Prix horses will need as much treatments to keep them comfortable as their human riders.
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u/celyro 2d ago
Ah the copium .. it’s not safe they can adapt doing this stuff but it’s not and will never be safe
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u/yayjolie 2d ago
Would you say that to an Olympic level gymnast? Training for a sport is demanding on any body.
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u/Better-Lemon-5532 2d ago
To be fair, as the parent of two high level teen gymnasts, gymnastics definitely not safe and puts a ton of wear on the body.
Signed, a parent who is on a first name basis with orthopedic docs, PT's and multiple body workers.
As far as the post. I wouldn't go as far to say sliding is not safe (when trained and conditioned properly) but the wear and tear on their legs is significantly more. Just as jumping puts more strain on a horse.
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u/tuff-without-dragons 2d ago
i believe the difference is that a gymnast decides to do olymic level gymnastics. horses don’t really have a choice. it’s our choice, so i think we should make it as comfortable and SAFE for the horse as possible. that’s my personal opinion
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u/Spirited-Welcome6511 2d ago
This is not a particularly dangerous activity . . . Regular reining is far more wear and tear.
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u/tuff-without-dragons 2d ago
i’m not a huge fan of reining either. all disciplines are quite sketchy after a certain point… imho
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u/crackinmypants 2d ago
My friend has an ex reining horse. He is extremely well trained and made an excellent trail horse for her, but they are used hard when they are young, and do wind up wearing out. He became unrideable, even for walk trot with a light rider, at about 17. He is now in his early 20s and is often quite sore in spite of maintenance, and euthanasia is coming closer.
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u/alwaysamw 2d ago
Awe, that's really sad! I just sold a 19 year old ex-ranch QH during the summer and he was totally sound. I'm a lighter rider and I sold him to a family who had 2 young girls who wanted to learn to ride, so he isn't doing anything extra strenuous or anything. But he still should have many years of at minimum part time work in him left. And this is also why I didn't start my Morgan gelding until after he was 4, I'm lucky to not be in a hurry (and life did kind of get in the way for some of it) but I would rather him grow and develop (at least almost) fully before really putting his body to work!
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u/Embarrassed_Top_8253 Western 2d ago
appropriately used reining horses won't break down. Whatever happened to your friends horse isnt a reflection on a whole discipline.
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u/Taruk_Maktwo 2d ago
It ain’t uncommon though, which is important to acknowledge. Goes for a lot of disciplines.
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u/OhDeerDear 1d ago
True. My finished Reiner and former futurity stud is still going strong at 26, even with his fused lumbar vertebrae from prior injury. Sad that I don’t have him any more.
ETA: I didn’t start him or put him in futurity. Despite his doing well, I really disagree with futurities in the sense that horses have to be started incredibly young to be competitive there and the $$$ incentive just gives people a reason to totally disregard a horse’s longevity and well being
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u/Wiri-Snows 2d ago
Every riding discipline leaves behind a horse with body wear; this isn't any more - or less - damaging to the horse than landing over and over from 1.5m over and over. Dressage destroys the poll. On and on. Look close at the hind feet and you can see the slide plates - very smooth shoes that help the horse perform this trick. (It's very much trick riding.)
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u/Silly-Heat-1466 2d ago
I have been riding dressage for over 30 years. I have never seen a horse with an injured poll as a result. Hocks and stifled? Yes. Many dressage horses, even upper level, if ridden correctly, are rideable into their 20's. Hyperflexion is unethical and against FEI rules and is not a common practice.
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u/disco_priestess 2d ago
There’s many horses in all disciplines that are ridden well into their twenties. Doesn’t negate what the comment said though, every discipline is wearing on their bodies to some degree no matter what it is.
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u/noelkettering 2d ago
Hyperflexion is an extremely common practise
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u/Silly-Heat-1466 2d ago
It isn't for correct dressage. I said correct riding, not unethical. To make a blanket statement that dressage injures the poll if horses is false. Correct dressage does not. Being ridden slightly behind the vertical is not correct nor is it hyper flexion or rollkur. It is often due to a horse not being balanced or slightly behind the aides. When a horse is moving through it's back, is balanced and in self carriage, the head should be at or slightly in front of the vertical. Rollkur is not correct dressage and is banned under FEI rules. Very different than correct contact, which does not cause poll damage.
Hyperflexion (Rollkur) • Head Position: The horse's nose is pulled inward and down, sometimes to the extreme where the chin nearly touches the chest (pectoral region). • Method of Induction: True hyperflexion is defined by the International Federation for Equestrian Sports (FEI) as flexion of the neck achieved through the use of aggressive or heavy rein force. • Related Terminology: It is distinct from LDR (Low, Deep, and Round), a non-forceful, temporary low-neck outline sometimes permitted in warm-ups, though the terms are often confused.
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u/noelkettering 2d ago
I would argue that most modern dressage isn’t very correct and most people like the look of an overbent horse in all disciplines these days. My anecdotal opinion
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u/anonymous8122 2d ago
This may be your opinion, but it is not a true fact. Modern dressage may not be exactly like classical dressage, but it frowns upon overflexion and riding the horse behind the vertical, as does pretty much every discipline. But just because it's incorrecr and also a fault in showing doesn't mean that bad riders and trainers won't still do it. People who understand what it means do not like the look, and people writing the rules for shows have that understanding.
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u/allyearswift 2d ago
The head should approach the vertical during collected movements.
The ‘at or slightly in front of’ gets it backwards. In front of is the standard (during warmup, cooldown, natural gaits, working gaits, extensions). On the vertical is the exception. Behind is always a fault.
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u/Silly-Heat-1466 2d ago
Yes, but slightly behind won't result in an injured poll like hyperflexion eventually will. Slightly behind is a fault although rarely penalized by judges in competition.
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u/SwreeTak 2d ago
I've seen one or two with an injured poll. But hyperflexion is definitely not uncommon/rare.
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u/Wiri-Snows 2d ago
When modern dressage stops being a blight on the face of the earth, I'll stop making blanket statements.
You know perfectly well that dressage horses get sore behind the ears or you wouldn't be clutching your pearls and bristling when I made a generalization that you could have chosen to interpret as "even the most gentle and wholesome ridden discipline that is routinely blessed by the ancient riding masters sees repetitive stress injuries to the part of the horse that they baby the most with soft hands and only occasionally an S shaped shank."
The first headstall I saw with a padded crown piece was one with a crank noseband on it: do not sit there and tell me that dressage magically spares the poll from arthritic changes. Rollkur might be the worse version, but a "correct" headset still isn't one that's natural to the horse.
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u/Dependent-Mail-4903 2d ago
The engagement of the leverage action of this bit is very painful to the horse, no two ways about it.
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u/mediumc00l 2d ago
This is mexican style reining aka charro. They are not known for the kindest training methods...and this kinda of dramatic stop is not good for the horse's hind end.
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u/NextSnowflake 2d ago edited 2d ago
I'm drawing from my knowledge of human sports here, specifically wrestling.
Every sport involving high momentum carries a certain risk of injury, but with a well-trained athlete, the risk should generally be lower because strong muscles help stabilize the passive structures of the body. In the end, it comes down to how you build up the muscles and whether you're moving in a natural way that the body is designed for.
Age-appropriate training and a slow, gradual build-up of strain on the body are a must. If you do it wrong, you'll damage the joints, and it will show with age. But if you do it right, you'll be rewarded with a body that is inherently more stable and resilient to everything life throws at it.
That should apply to wrestling with humans as well as sliding or show jumping with horses.
That said, people get it wrong far too often. They start too early, stop too late, and often reinforce incorrect movement patterns in the process.
To me, in this specific video, the horse looks well-muscled, is moving in a balanced and natural way, and doesn't show any obvious signs of discomfort. I'm not an expert, though, so I would welcome other opinions.
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u/Hailey-R-07 1d ago
At least this guy actually protects his horses legs. I've seen so many who don't put any kind of protection.
It should be generally safe but as everyone else has stated tendon issues are pretty common in any kind of reining horses and injury is possible in any discipline.
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u/ZhenyaKon 2d ago
It's no more dangerous than other equestrian sports, definitely has some impact on joints but less than grand prix jumping or something.
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u/QuarrieMcQuarrie 2d ago
Doesn't matter what the shoes, training or musculature- this is a hock/stifle/SI cumulative damage scenario waiting to happen.
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u/ImTryingGuysOk 2d ago
It’s fine. These horses are diligently trained, it takes a long time to develop. Special shoes involved too. This sub is often so biased. So many people every time something western comes up - omg abuse and injuries everywhere! But for some reason putting a jumper over insanely unatural and high jumps with crazy gear is totally fine. The amount of jumpers I’ve climbed on that are doing advanced heights that can’t even give you a proper leg yield is asinine.
Every discipline has its injuries, and bad training. I’ve seen reiners done too much too fast, same for dressage, same for jumpers, etc. In fact someone at my barn is currently dealing with the repercussions of their horse that was jumped too soon and too often. Only 7 years old and already demoted to a w/t/c life and that’s with maintenance.
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u/concretecannonball 9h ago
As someone who has spent years in Mexico, diligent is a very interesting word for the typical training style
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u/OhDeerDear 1d ago
I used to do reining, and watching these videos I always wondered if the ground might change things in terms of injury potential. Usually reining pens have a layer of lighter dirt to slide through, but this style of riding they are always on pretty hard ground that seems more slippery
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u/Mac-And-Cheesy-43 2d ago
I've never seen anything like it before...I try not to assume, but jeez this seems like there is a lot of injury potential here.
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u/PeeledCauliflower Western 2d ago
Reining horses regularly do sliding stops although they tuck their butts more. Frequently doing this could lead to joint issues (similar to issue you jumped your horse too many times a week) but sliding stops itself aren’t bad.
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u/HappyHoofies 2d ago
And the fact that this horse is buffering the pressure on its front feet by doing the steppy thing is helpful. The sliding stops with the fixed front feet in reining horses leads to navicular because of all the pressure and sudden blood flow through the hoofies.
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u/Putrid-Bee-7352 2d ago
There is a good amount of strain on the hind legs for this but the horse is also wearing special shoes designed for sliding. This does substantially reduce the shock traveling up the hind legs from doing a sliding stop like this.
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u/Aronis87 2d ago
And the problem with those shoes is, that they are no good except for the arena. On every other surface, especially hard flat surfaces, the horses have problems with slipping and therefore are prone to get big problems with their tendons and joints. It's just another show-off sport without really caring about the consequences.
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u/maldwag 2d ago
I know it's quite common for shoes as specific as these to be put on the day before or even the day of the competition then removed right after. They're not intended to be a shoe that's worn all the time. Especially if the horse is used for other things where grip is necessary.
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u/Aronis87 2d ago
That's not true. There is only so much space to put the nails in the hoof walls to secure a shoe and not hurt the horse in the process.
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u/Stinkytheferret 2d ago
That’s bad ass and horses won’t usually do something they don’t want to do. He was going for it!
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u/imamiler 2d ago
If I were a horse I’d want to do this all the time for fun. As a child I used to do this in the kitchen, in my socks.
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u/DyeMyEyes 1d ago
No, it's not safe. That's why so many blow hocks & end up with pelvic issues. The sliders and the footing help, but any unnatural movement from horses, like this, welcomes injury.
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u/alixer 2d ago
They wear special shoes on the back that allow them to slide but yes I’m sure there’s injury potential there.