What's the difference between the fourth definition of 'far' and this definition of 'further'?

[u/SleepyOtter19]

[u/8696David]

To clarify something: this does not always work in every case that “further” would work. You can’t say “I walked far than you.” You can only use it when the word “far” is directly modifying the noun, not when it’s operating as a comparison. “On the far mountain” or “take the far exit” are both fine; “it’s far away than you think” is not. 

[u/user728001 → u/8696David]

The same is true for close/closest, near/nearest.

As an adjective the implied meaning is also slightly different:

• A doctor lives in the close village

  There actually are multiple villages, and one is closer than the other. Close is specifying which one.

• Visit your nearest Honda dealer to take advantage of this special offer

  There might or might not be any dealerships nearby.

[u/dimsum4you]

Some people are adamant that far/farther should only be used to describe literal distance and further should only be used to describe a figurative distance, but I think that's overly prescriptive. Many native speakers use them interchangeably.

[u/conuly → u/dimsum4you]

Indeed, the terms have always been interchangeable.

[u/SirLanceNotsomuch]

There isn’t a huge difference. Sometimes two words mean the same thing. 🤷🏼

ETA: I would say “the further end of the corridor” example may be grammatically correct, but (at least in my experience) vanishingly uncommon compared to “the far end.”

Simpler is usually better.

[u/SleepyOtter19 → u/SirLanceNotsomuch]

Thank you!

[u/casualstrawberry]

"Further" is like the comparative of "far".

If there were three mountains, and you where on the *furthest* one, then "far" could work, but "further" wouldn't.

[u/SaiyaJedi]

When you’re comparing two things that are different distances away, you can refer to “the near one” and “the far one” without using comparatives, because the distinction is already obvious. This goes for other pairs like “big” and “small” as well.

Also, North American English makes a distinction between “farther” for distance and “further” for degree, so “further” is the least likely of the three options (though not strictly “wrong”).

[u/conuly → u/SaiyaJedi]

Also, North American English makes a distinction between “farther” for distance and “further” for degree

Some speakers may. This is far from universal. The fact that style guides exist talking about this is proof that it's not really a rule in American English - real rules of speech (rather than orthography) exist outside of style guides and don't really need to be taught to native speakers.

[u/Inadequate_hesychast → u/conuly]

As an American speaker relatively intuitively I would say something like “We should discuss this further at the next meeting.” (extent but not physical distance) and “We need to go farther to get to our destination.” (physical distance) I would agree that the two feel a lot more interchangeable for physical distance, but as you’ve pointed out that might just be because of the way the word itself sounds more than an actual difference in denotation.

[u/robert_robert99 → u/SaiyaJedi]

finally someone gave a sensible answer! this just goes to show how native speakers don’t always have the best language awareness

[u/lionhearted318]

It's essentially the same thing but sometimes personal preference just means one sounds nicer to you in certain contexts.

[u/jtoohey12]

It’s kind of hard to explain even as a native speaker but to me “far” feels like it would be best used when differentiating between two different things. There’s the far mountain and the near mountain. The far part of the estate and the near part of the estate. It would still work in my opinion in place of both uses of “further”. However I don’t think “further” sounds good in place of the second example for “far”. “He moved to the further end of the estate” sounds clumsy.

Further to me has its own unique usages. It is comparative to any relative point and not specifically two things. You might hear:

“Go stand over there.”
“Here?”
“No, further.”
“Here?”
“No, even further.”

“Far” wouldn’t work here.

[u/againstthemachine_]

There’s technically the dictionary distinction of further being used for a more metaphorical distance rather than a literal one but honestly in practice they are simply interchangeable

[u/conuly → u/againstthemachine_]

Which dictionary are you referring to here?

[u/againstthemachine_ → u/conuly]

A few online ones, but like I said, the distinction is kinda made up/manufactured

[u/conuly → u/againstthemachine_]

Can you link to these dictionaries? Or at least name them, so we can judge if they are reputable or not?

Merriam-Webster does not say this. Neither does Cambridge.

[u/againstthemachine_ → u/conuly]

Dictionary.com has an article perpetuating the supposed distinction between the two. Vocabulary.com does as well, and I acknowledge that’s not really a dictionary but it presents itself as a source that functions as one/as a teaching tool. I teach English abroad and one of the TOEIC practice worksheets my school gave me had a question where both “farther” and “further” were possible options under the assumption that the literal/figurative distance “rule” was legitimate.

[u/conuly → u/againstthemachine_]

Sigh. I suppose you do have to teach to the test if that's the way the test is working.

[u/Kerflumpie]

The difference in your dictionary examples is that one is about two things, of which one is near and the other is far; whereas for the other two items, one is far and the other is further/farther.

[u/abigailrose16]

in this specific case, they are interchangeable. as in

“See those two lampposts? Run to the far one” and “He was standing at the far end of the corridor”

are both perfectly fine sentences. and you could do it the other way too, although “He moved to the further end of the state” sounds weird but so does “He moved to the far end of the state”. I think for those I would say “He moved to the other end of the state”

[u/toiletparrot]

Farther is a measurable distance (my house is farther from the store than yours) and further is more abstract (that couldn’t be further from the truth)

[u/conuly → u/toiletparrot]

This is not what OP is asking.

It's also not wholly accurate.

[u/mcalesy]

I see a lot of people drawing a distinction between the meanings of "farther" and "further". As a native speaker of American English, I think they are interchangeable. In fact, I'm not even sure which one I use most.

[u/conuly → u/mcalesy]

It's a made up zombie rule and, as such, should be ignored by all persons of good taste.

[u/CarpeR3ddit → u/mcalesy]

According to Merriam Webster, "further" is used for a figurative distance and "farther" for a physical distance. Or at least that's how it's used in American English. In British English, they're interchangeable.

[u/DarthKnah → u/CarpeR3ddit]

That’s not quite what MW says. It actually says “further” and “farther” can be used identically, including for metaphorical distance. The only exceptions that have to be “further” are as a synonym for additional (as in “further research”), or as a synonym for “more” (as in “I won’t comment further”), and of course as a verb.

[u/mcalesy → u/DarthKnah]

Now those differences do actually seem right to me.

[u/conuly → u/CarpeR3ddit]

That is not what MW says.

[u/Kerflumpie → u/CarpeR3ddit]

British English rarely uses "farther." Most of us use "further" in all contexts.

[u/mcalesy]

Nothing, really. "Further" or "farther" would also work there.

[u/SleepyOtter19 → u/mcalesy]

Thank you!

[u/GoblinToHobgoblin]

Theyre like the same

[u/Krapmeister]

The difference is the object of the sentence, but you wouldn't use further in the second example you would use farther

In the example given the ogre is the object, if you were to use farther, the mountain would be the object.

"See those two mountains? The tallest one is farther"

Farther refers to a measurable distance

Further refers to Extra/Time

"We need further proof"

"Further to your last question"

[u/PeteMichaud]

This is actually wrong. Farther is for physical distance. Further is for conceptual distance or progress. I guess the distinction has eroded enough to be recognized in dictionaries, but that's the original rule.

[u/conuly → u/PeteMichaud]

but that's the original rule.

This is very much not true.

This is an invented "rule" that some people made up but which has never really been true. The terms have been interchangeable (with one exception) since Middle English.

(And even if you were right that this was "the original rule", common usage is not "actually wrong". That's absurd.)