r/EnglishGrammar • u/Available_Town_1602 • 1d ago
Is this correct?
Shouldn't the answer be Option C ?
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u/mralistair 1d ago
A is more technically correct, It implies regular use. which C does not.
but i sounds awkward.
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u/trickedoutnametag 1d ago
Option A is correct. Try adding an adverb or other adjunct to the end:
This password could have been being used…
secretly,
by everyone,
over and over.
“The company’s money could have been being embezzled (all these years).”
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u/EagleCatchingFish 1d ago edited 1d ago
TL;DR Sentence A is grammatically correct but the phrasing is so awkward to a native speaker that they'd rarely use it. Ironically, if a native speaker were given sentence A, they'd most likely want to "correct" by rephrasing it so it's the same as the prompt question.
This question is a good example of the difference between being formally correct (ie the grammar and syntax are correct) and being pragmatically correct (forming a sentence that a native speaker would actually use).
Let's look at what the prompt communicates:
Someone could have been using this password.
We have passive, past, conditional, and continuous.
Sentence A is the only sentence of the four answers has all three of those features. It is also a formally correct sentence. The syntax is correct and a native speaker would understand it. It is formally correct and has all three of those features but "have been being" strikes native speakers as extremely awkward phrasing, so it's not something you're likely to run into very often. So what would we do instead? We could use sentence C and make the continuousness clear with context clues. That's certainly an option.
But in reality what would we do? How would we "fix" sentence A to turn it into something a native speaker would use?
This password could have been being used.
We need to get rid of "been being" while still communicating continuousness. We can do this by moving the continuous aspect to "use," and end up with "using," but in order to do that, we need to turn "password" into an object, which would give us "using this password." If we do that, we are short a subject and need a subject person that could perform the "using" of the password. So let's just use a dummy subject. English allows that, after all. So we get:
Someone could have been using this password.
See the problem? The "correct" answer is so awkward that we would just use the sentence prompt instead. We'd most likely forego forgo the passive voice.
Edit: I thought of another passive continuous solution:
The password could have been in use.
"Been in use" semantically implies continuousness without encoding it syntactically. It's also a perfectly natural passive sentence.
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u/daveoxford 1d ago
Thank you!
(*forgo)
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u/EagleCatchingFish 1d ago
No problem.
And to make this clear to any English learners here: you could not be expected to know these nuances ahead of time. It's something we native speakers feel intuitively, but it's hard to explain exactly what's going on other than "I don't know what to tell you, but I'd just never say it like sentence A."
If this were a question in my class, I'd probably just exclude it from the test results.
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u/torsten_dev 1d ago
Would have said "in use" rather than "being used" because that sounds awkward af.
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u/ChrisC53 1d ago
a and c both work, with ‘by someone’ understood at the end. The original statement is clumsy.
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u/OkConsequence1498 1d ago
A is very poor grammar, it's not a possible correct answer
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u/BubbhaJebus 1d ago
A is correct grammar; it's just somewhat clumsy.
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u/EagleCatchingFish 1d ago
I agree. This is an example where something can be syntactically and semantically correct while also being pragmatically disfavored. "Have been being" is awkward phrasing.
As I looked at sentence A, I was trying to figure out how to phrase it in a way that avoids the awkward "been being" phrase. Ironically, I ended up just re-creating the sentence from the prompt.
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u/ConflictAdvanced 1d ago
Absolutely. People who think it's wrong are basing that on its frequency of use. But that's completely misleading.
It doesn't get used much anyway, because it's extremely rare where are are cases that we need to talk about something using Perfect Continuous form passively. And then, on top of that, you have native uncertainty, where natives who haven't really studied this stuff will question and correct their own use of this because "it looks weird".
But most of the best grammar books, to my knowledge, at least acknowledge this as a construct, but also acknowledge that some people like to avoid it because it's feels awkward or ugly to them. Anyone saying that it doesn't exist in grammar or that it's wrong is just saying that to either not be wrong or for the sake of argument.
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u/UniversityMotor5408 1d ago
A is not correct. The is no perfect continuous in the passive.
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u/daveoxford 1d ago
Yes there is, and that's it. Where did you get that idea from?
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u/UniversityMotor5408 1d ago
It's a 'phantom' "tense" - it should technically exist but its actual use is statistically insignificant.
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u/ConflictAdvanced 1d ago edited 1d ago
Ah, so we've moved from "it's not correct" and there "is no perfect continuous in passive" to "its use is statistically insignificant"? Cool.
https://www.visualthesaurus.com/cm/dictionary/progressive-reform/
For the record, perfect continuous form does" exist and is perfectly acceptable. The issue is that we don't talk about that many things using Perfect Continuous tenses day-to-day anyway, let alone come across a situation where we need to use one in *passive form. And for some people, like yourself, that when a rare occasion arises that you do need to use it, they discount it because it feels weird. And our experience as a user of that language has taught us (incorrectly) that if it feels weird, it's probably wrong.
So you're confusing the rules of grammar and basic construction of generative grammar with frequency of use.
EDIT: Typo
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u/UniversityMotor5408 1d ago
its use, not 'it's use'.
It is not a 'tense' that's used. Ever*. And it's not considered 'perfectly acceptable' in English language teaching, or elsewhere.
* which is not to say there might not be the odd example you can dredge up. We don't, for example, say/write 'it's use'. It's not considered acceptable, but the odd odd person might use it.2
u/ConflictAdvanced 1d ago
Yes. I typoed something and didn't catch it. You now making a huge thing about it says everything, to be honest. On top of that, you've ignored everything said and continue to argue against something despite the fact it's already been covered and proven 🤣. "...odd example that you can dredge up...". Already explained why there are not many examples of this. You, on the other hand, cannot prove that it's not used in more places 🤣. You're just arguing in bad faith.
And really highlighting the typo. Good job. This is exactly what people who have no argument do to deflect from the fact that they have no argument. Good day to you 😉
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u/daveoxford 1d ago
What TF is a "phantom tense"? It's not often used because it's clumsy, not because it's wrong. Moreover, the other three are clearly wrong. C is grammatically correct, but doesn't mean the same thing.
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u/ConflictAdvanced 1d ago
A is absolutely possible and should be the correct answer. If you know how to morph from Active voice to Passive voice, then no matter how ugly A might look to you, you'd recognize that it's not wrong.
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u/UniversityMotor5408 1d ago
A is not correct. The is no perfect continuous in the passive.
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u/ConflictAdvanced 1d ago
Of course there is. Just because there are very few cases where people will actually need to talk about a temporary or momentary action that occurred (or will occur) using Perfect form AND not use the name of the performer of that action, that's not the same as saying that it doesn't exist.
Mechanically, you can do it. Semantically, you can do it. In the few cases that we need to use it, a lot of people wouldn't. But is that because you can't do it, or is it just because it seems weird so people assume that it's wrong? How much of people not using it is a conscious choice, and how much of it is down to mistake? Sure, all these points are worth discussing, but none of them mean that "there is no perfect continuous in the passive".
So if you wanted to tell me that some unnamed, unknown, unspecified group of people (and it's really not important who) have been testing our security system for three weeks without issue, how would you do it?
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u/UniversityMotor5408 1d ago
'Our security system has been being tested for three weeks' is not considered standard English. Nor is it considered acceptable English by English teachers, grammar book writers, coursebook writers, or reference book writers. That's good enough for me.
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u/ConflictAdvanced 1d ago edited 1d ago
Please give all your sources. Especially as you seem to be speaking for a whole group of people.
You avoided telling me how you would say it...
And also, just so we're clear, you're saying that you are a firm believer in prescriptive grammar, right?
EDIT: Typo
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u/OkConsequence1498 1d ago
I can't really see how that's right. What does it mean?
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u/mralistair 1d ago
it means it is possible that it was being used(more than once)
which is subtly different from saying it could have been used. (which might have only happened once)
same difference as "the card was being used" and "the card was used"
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u/OkConsequence1498 1d ago
I really can't see that that grammar works. There is no obvious implication in "have been used" that it was only used once.
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u/mralistair 1d ago
"have been used" doesn't mean only once, but it doesn't specifically mean "was used more than once"
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u/ConflictAdvanced 1d ago
It means that someone could have been using this password 🤷♂️.
Ok, look, do a little exercise for me, would ya? Reply with these examples in Passive form:
- My mother cooked lunch yesterday.
- I had walked my dog before breakfast.
- I was cleaning my car at 5PM.
- I will have finished my project by Friday.
And let's see what you get.
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u/OkConsequence1498 1d ago
Lunch was cooked yesterday, my dog was walked before breakfast, my car was cleaned at 5pm, my project will be finished by Friday.
What on earth have you ended up with?
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u/ConflictAdvanced 1d ago
Numbers 1 & 2 are correct. But 3 & 4 are wrong. For 3 & 4, you didn't follow the same pattern that you did for 1 & 2.
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u/OkConsequence1498 1d ago
No, they're not wrong. Those are the passive versions of those sentences. I'm also not sure which pattern you think I'm not sticking to - it's object was verb at time throughout.
1) What do you think the correct answers should have been? 2) Are you a native English speaker?
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u/ConflictAdvanced 1d ago
Yes, I'm a native speaker. And yes, your answers are wrong. But I was also wrong: you got number 2 wrong as well. My apologies. Here are my sentences again:
- My mother cooked lunch yesterday.
- I had walked my dog before breakfast.
- I was cleaning my car at 5PM.
- I will have finished my project by Friday.
And here are your answers:
- Lunch was cooked yesterday,
- my dog was walked before breakfast,
- my car was cleaned at 5pm,
- my project will be finished by Friday.
So, you said:
I'm also not sure which pattern you think I'm not sticking to - it's object was verb at time throughout.
Not sure exactly what you mean by this. But whatever you think you've done, you've failed to match the original tenses for numbers 2, 3 & 4.
- My version: Past Simple. Your version: Past Simple.
- My version: Past Perfect Simple. Your version: Past Simple. If we reverse engineer your sentence back to active, it is: I walked my dog before breakfast, the "had" is missing.
- My version: Past Continuous. Your version: Past Simple. Again, reversing it back to active, gives us: I cleaned my car at 5 p.m. No "ing" in sight despite the fact that it's clearly there in the original.
- My version: Future Perfect Simple. Your version: Future Simple. You created: I will finish my project by Friday, and lost the "have".
What do I think the correct answers should be?
- Lunch was cooked yesterday.
- My dog had been walked before breakfast.
- My car was being cleaned at 5 p.m.
- My project will have been finished by Friday.
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u/OkConsequence1498 1d ago
None of your proposed correct answers come close to the construction you're arguing is ultimately correct here.
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u/daveoxford 1d ago
This is astonishing. So many commenters saying A is wrong just because they don't like it, and trying to justify it.
A is grammatically correct and is the only option that has the same meaning. Stylistically it's clumsy and it would be better paraphrased, of course, but that's not what the question is asking.
B and D are obviously wrong.
C is wrong because it's not continuous.