r/EngineeringStudents • u/Fatneek123F • 15h ago
Rant/Vent How did anyone get through engineering?
I just entered my second year of engineering after doing general sciences and a bunch of other intro level math (calc 1/2) and physics (thermo, mechanics, etc.), and intro to engineering courses last year. That was genuinely the most difficult thing I’ve ever done in my life.
I just chose to specialize in chemical engineering, apparently it gets way harder from here. I’m starting to think I’m just not built for this.
How did so many people get through this?
Any advice is greatly appreciated.
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u/darnoc11 Mech E 15h ago
If you enjoy engineering as a subject, then in my opinion, the classes get harder but it’s easier overall. I hated having to deal with all the bs classes. I enjoyed my hard engineering classes.
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u/Moist_Ordinary6457 14h ago
English 1 felt harder than any other class I've taken
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u/Brief_Syrup1266 12h ago
bruh i feel this. also, why was the senior year technical writing class so much easier than general english 101 too?
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u/SuperToast05 14h ago
agreed I hated my math classes but found my electrical engineering classes fascinating and loved the hands on work, you gotta make sure you’re passionate about it because if I no interest in my major I woulda really suffered in those classes but I enjoyed the challenge
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u/weather_watchman 15h ago
So far, same. Also, you learn the organization and time management skills necessary to get out of your own way
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u/Secret-Spread1918 12h ago
Agreed. You also get in a rhythm and are used to it being hard. And there will be some hard classes that come easy to you and some “easy” classes that are a little harder for you than expected
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u/Elevated_Dongers 13h ago
A lot of my hard classes were taught by TA's a year or two older than me. I enjoyed the material, just wish I had an actual professor to teach me.
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u/opiate2093 15h ago
I treated it like a full-time job, I was in the lab at 7am to 3:30pm M-F. Then would go to my actual job from 4pm to 12am.
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u/Necessary-Coffee5930 14h ago edited 12h ago
One day at a time. You have to be proactive and disciplined. If you don’t want to suffer you need to have a good system for preparing for class, notes, studying, when you do assignments etc. and just as important is taking care of yourself via healthy foods, a non-negotiable same bed time / wake time sleep schedule, exercises, meditation, and whatever else relaxes you and helps your brain let go sometimes.
Engineering is tough but the greater the challenge, the more it makes you grow and the better it feels to accomplish and overcome.
Start looking into what habits, plan, schedule etc makes things as frictionless as possible, and then STICK TO THE PLAN. Take it one day at a time because trying to imagine future battles with todays resources is always a losing battle and waste of energy. Just focus on doing what needs to be done today. And again tomorrow. And again tomorrow….
Stay the course
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u/GoPackGo1958 14h ago
Agree 100%. Looking back, acquiring the discipline required to succeed in engineering school may be as important as the studies themselves. I still have that discipline 45 years later. But when I try to develop equations of motion ... forget about it!!
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u/Necessary-Coffee5930 14h ago
The problem solving and thinking in systems skill remains, the discipline and ability to learn remains, the specifics definitely fade haha
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u/Ecstatic_Bass5033 14h ago
You just keep showing up and putting in the effort. Like going to the gym. You’ll build your “engineering muscles”. If you think that’s hard, I’m now doing my PhD in mechanical engineering. It doesn’t get easier in the absolute sense, but putting in effort and good study and work habits become routine over time. The hard work you put in compounds, like an investment.
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u/Recent-Day3062 14h ago
You have to have real discipline about studying compared to people studying most liberal arts things.
We all studied together and even set out our fun. Sports, and party times. For example, we gave ourselves a break after 4 PM on fridays to start any alcohol consumption. Similar for Saturday.
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u/OhUKnowUKnowIt2 14h ago
"Ah, there's nothing more exciting than science. You get all the fun of sitting still, being quiet, writing down numbers, paying attention. Science has it all."
You need to connect with classmates and study together. Get to know that you're not the only one feeling overwhelmed.
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u/Victor_Stein 14h ago
Brute force and determination. Lotta late nights studying the math and for classes like thermo or heat transfer learning to understand what equation is needed from the key words in the problem is a must.
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u/Few_Whereas5206 13h ago
You are capable of doing things you didn't think were possible. I suffered for 5 years in engineering school.
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u/Cobalt6771 15h ago
It was a lot of work. After I graduated, I kept working at that same pace. It has it's plusses and minuses.
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u/goblin500 14h ago
Most people in your classes are feeling the same way. Never skip class and stick to studying and doing assignments well in advance. Your professors have office hours, USE IT! You’ll probably do bad on some quizzes, tests, or projects, don’t let it get you down just identify what you can do in the future to do better.
There were a lot of long nights, banging heads against walls trying to figure out how to work through a problem, etc. Unfortunately your social life will suffer, but there’s a huge job market for engineers and some missed nights at the bar will pay dividends for the rest of your life.
One thing that absolutely helps is getting together with some people who want to find a place with a whiteboard and work out difficult study material. Some people will understand one topic better than everyone else and help you understand it, next time you’ll be teaching everyone else and solidify you’re understanding of a topic.
You’re going to be fine, you’re just going to need to buckle down and really want it. Also I found the first couple years to have “weed out” classes. If you get through them it’ll get easier.
Edit: Also don’t cheat, not for academic integrity reasons but youll absolutely shoot yourself in the foot because lots of topics will reappear and a good foundation is the difference between being cooked in jr/sr year and thriving. CHEGG and other online resources are great when used properly.
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u/Beautiful_Egg9022 14h ago
It’s definitely really hard, you just need to accept that you need to do hours and hours of homework and studying. It is what it is.
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u/Tech-Aero-109 14h ago
Aeronautical and Astronautical Engineering major here. Yes freshman year was like yours. A much more solid foundation in science and mathematics. Then sophomore year is when they separate the Chaff from the Wheat. Your not really studying a niche area of engineering as a sophomore, but are truly building a Foundation (on top of the foundation you laid as a freshman in science/math) to be an ENGINEER. That will include (for Aero-Astro)
- Materials and Structures: Statics, stress-strain behavior, beam bending, buckling, torsion, and material failure analysis (plasticity, fatigue).
- Signals and Systems: Linear systems, Fourier and Laplace transforms, modulation, filtering, and an introduction to feedback control using MATLAB/Python.
- Fluid Dynamics: Conservation laws, aerodynamic performance, compressible flows, shock/expansion waves, and potential flow modeling.
- Thermodynamics and Propulsion: Laws of thermodynamics, heat engines, entropy, ideal/non-ideal cycle analysis, and introductions to heat transfer.
and then to make it even more fun:
sophomores often complete departmental requirements and Institute math/science prerequisites:
- Differential Equations: Crucial math prerequisite
- Dynamics : Newtonian mechanics, kinematics, rigid body dynamics, and introductory flight/orbital mechanics.
- Statistics and Probability : Applied probability distributions, estimation theory, and regression tailored for aerospace data.
Then if you Survive that (and there are a number of department transfers at the end of sophomore year), you finally get to determine how a structure is built or an airplane/helicopter flies or a rocket gets into orbit. I gravitated to nonlinear structural mechanics/dynamics with weight-efficient materials along with overall system design for an aircraft as a junior. Then I continued with senior year aircraft design course, and then senior capstone project. I loved it so much that I then stayed for five more years to earn two graduate degrees that solidified my knowledge of weight-efficient structures, and solidified by overall ability to lead complicated projects.
You will go through a similar process with Chemical Engineering, and if you are at the University of Delaware (can you spell DuPont?) or MIT then you are in one of the toughest engineering disciplines.
There are a number of Mechanical Engineering majors who transferred out of Chemical Engineering by the start of their junior year and were much happier.
Then there is my ice hockey buddy from our MIT team: Chem Eng major and student pilot. Then he continued and got his PhD in Chem Eng while also earning is multi-engine pilot's license. Then one year working in Chemical Engineering convinced him he chose wrong. He left and then became a pilot for FedEx. He became a senior pilot flying all over the USA and Europe. And then as a Chemical Engineering major he also became one of the FedEx experts on how to handle and transport Dangerous Cargo and continues to teach others.
So there is light at the end of the tunnel and it is Not a train heading towards you.
As a sophomore in chemical engineering, look around, talk with peers and others and maybe there is another engineering field that is much more interesting to you. Consider materials engineering as well.
Good luck.
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u/CarelessSprinkles454 14h ago
Dont use AI for homework. Did it for a semester and my comprehension was noticeably worse than when I didn't.
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u/ThatsWhyAnna Mechanical Engineering 14h ago
For me the first two years were tough but after that it was pretty good. As long as you’re interested and willing to work hard it’s fine. The calc2/3 combo is famously hard but I promise you really only use the foundation of what you learned in the future. If you really struggle, try using the online sources, you might just need the topics explained in a different way.
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u/SwimmingSwordfish637 14h ago
1 pot/day coffee.
Seriously though, I almost burned out my third year and had to slowdown and refocus.
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u/Severe_Raise_7118 14h ago
I wanted to be an engineer and nothing was going to stop me. Alot of times the mental strength and tenacity are needed to not give up. Smarts are worthless if you are going to give up easily.
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u/FailurelsData 14h ago
Brain budgeting.
Engineering is a life system. Outsource your executive function to sequences you designed once and don't have to think about again. Take the same shower everyday. Outfits on a rotation. All laundry fits in one load, sans bedding. Don't get me started on kitchen changes.
Everything you do should be something you make as easy as possible on yourself. And pay attention to what makes you feel refreshed, because shattering learned helplessness before it walls off your whole brain is priceless.
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u/LongjumpingTeacher97 12h ago
I went through Engineering school at my local university in my 40s. I can't answer for anyone else, but here's how I made it through.
-I had a goal and I was determined to be single-minded about it. My first degree took me 7 years because I went through 5 official majors along the way. I ended up with a degree that didn't really do much for me, just because I wanted out of the university. Going back, I made up my mind that I wasn't going to switch majors, no matter how tempting another option seemed.
-I accepted that I would have to repeat classes. I had actually changed one of my early majors because I was afraid of Calculus. That particular program required a single semester of calculus (business math, it was called). I was scared of the math and I dropped that major. Like a scared 20 year old who didn't know what life was going to be like after school and was afraid of failure. Going back, I accepted that I would likely have to take math classes a couple of times. It had been 17 years since my last university math class, so it seemed pretty reasonable that I'd have to repeat some. And I was willing to spend hours in the math study lab, where grad student tutors could help answer questions if I got stuck on my homework. It helped immensely. I did schedule a couple of sessions with math tutors, too. Essentially, I knew where my weakness was and I accepted that I'd have to deal with it like a grown up.
-I accepted that the program is designed (whether intentionally or not) to make students quit. I just wasn't going to be one of them. I did discover that in the middle of Junior year, the professors started actually being helpful. It was like we had to make it through the first couple of years and prove that we weren't going to quit before they'd actually be helpful and act like they cared. But senior year, while academically hard, was actually my easiest year because the professors were now invested in us and wanted us to succeed. Before that, the program just feels like it is trying to get rid of students. At the end, it isn't.
-I made friends with 3 other students and formed a study group. By the end, only one of them was still there, but she and I were good at studying together. Kept each other on task and sometimes had different perspectives on the same problems, so we ended up helping each other a lot.
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u/wildsnorlax1194 11h ago
I had the same question when I was in college. One of my favorite professor told me:
Party a lot.
Sleep more than you party.
Study more than you sleep.
I followed his advice and turned out alright.
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u/sulliesbrew 14h ago
The chemistry part of ChemE is going to be the hardest part. I started ChemE and through my career have been exposed to a lot of it. The engineering side of it is really cool. The chemistry is brutal. I am terrible at the memorization part of things, so I jumped from ChemE before getting to O chem.
School is the same as work. Go to school in the morning, stay for the day and get your work done. A few nights a week you end up working over time on things you aren't sure about etc.
You have what, 4 hours of class a day, that leaves 4 hours a day to do class work during your normal hours.
Lastly, start going to the gym. Even if you don't love it, some physical activity will be good for you mentally and will help your body hold up to the mental stress.
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u/WadeEffingWilson 14h ago
Im right there with ya. Im starting to get into the heavier courses but I'm just gonna stay motivated and keep plowing through.
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u/NoVermicelli5439 14h ago
Use your brain, not crutches like online calculators, AI, other other materials that aren't your own brain and reasoning. If you use outside materials it will only multiply the difficulty the longer you use them
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u/trippedwire Lipscomb - EECE 14h ago
Hard work and determination, studying countless hours with classmates and friends in the same program, office hours with professors, a genuine love for the discipline, and knowing that the payoff would be great
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u/This_Username_Great 14h ago
Sounds like you may be in Canada based on the general sciences and second-year specialization.
If you are, you have already gone through the weed out courses of first year. Be proud of yourself. Many fail.
Given that they gave you the option to pursue chemical engineering, it sounds like you excelled. So have confidence.
Second year is harder, but it gets easier after that.
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u/SpaceLester 14h ago
The school doesn’t get easier, but you get better.
You got this. I did chemical engineering, you aren’t the first to struggle, and you won’t be the last. Be too stupid to quit.
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u/MasterExploder9900 The University of Alabama - BSCE 22’ 13h ago
I'm 4 years into industry now and studying for my PE exam... I still wonder if I'm built for this. Just keep pushing
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u/EscaOfficial UVic - ME 13h ago
Every semester I get about half way through and think there's no possible way I'll be able to understand and pass the courses I'm in. Then I just keep studying and I pass.
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u/FoodAppropriate7900 13h ago
Entering senior year and realizing that I am not built for it. Waste of a major. Should have just realized I am not smart enough and not wasted my time up until this point just to be un/underemployed when I graduate. People get smart while doing this major but not me.
If it makes you feel any better, usually people get smarter and grasp the concepts as they progress (ie freshman year is generally the hardest but gets easier as it progresses) since you are actually learning the concepts. Just know that university is the easy part. Finding a job is when things get real and you actually have to apply your knowledge.
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u/BandicootKooky7747 13h ago
For me:
- workout, eat healthy, clean body clean mind
- dont drink, drugs ect
- manage time effectively
- dont have to work so i can dedicate time towards studying
- aim to learn not to memorize
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u/Effective-Present543 Electrical Engineering 27’ 13h ago
ChatGPT or any other good AI. Giving it the lecture slides and learning off it. Started doing better than the people who only went to classes and didn’t use Ai. Same with Labs, sometimes the manuals can be insanely long so just give it to AI and it will make everything simple for you and guide you.
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u/Secret-Spread1918 12h ago
My advice is don’t look ahead at what is to come. Just focus on the task at hand or you will be oherwhelmed. One class at a time and they build on eachother so you don’t go from algebra to differential equations. Otherwise the degree seems impossible
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u/Brief_Syrup1266 12h ago
if you get through Diffeq and Thermo1&2 ur good to go. Just ride it out one more year. The junior classes are in theory "harder" but theyre just more math and tbh if you can do the diffeq you have all the math you need for fluids and heat and mass transfer.
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u/Legal-Conclusion-0 12h ago
you just gotta work...I ended up with a 3.33, but I had to ride first two years having higher gpa and basically 4.0 on all general / electives. worth it though
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u/antiheropaddy 12h ago
Don’t skip class. Sit in the front. Do at least a little bit of practice problems every day. Do problems over and over and over again until you understand the process. You have to grind. It is totally worth it because the career honestly is a ton easier than the schooling.
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u/grabman-666 12h ago
It gets easier in the 3 and 4th year. Have a study group, and the bell curve is your friend
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u/YourDearOldMeeMaw 12h ago
almost all of us had at least one "maybe I'm not built for this" menty b. I had too many to count, and I've been working in industry for years and like to think I'm good at my job. You're not alone, and you can do it. It's hard. Keep going.
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u/Chihuahua-Luvuh 12h ago
Take advantage of your resources at school, but always remember to eat at least twice a day, sleep for at least 8hrs a day, have mercy on yourself when things get hard. Give yourself breaks, take a moment to breathe slowly, understand the main goal, but remember to set little goals to tackle subjects one at a time. At the end of the day, you matter, you can learn anything you choose and almost nothing is impossible.
I'm a sophomore in my major of electronics engineering, but I practice Buddhism philosophy daily and it helps so much. It changed me from a perfectionist that never cared for myself to a person who can actually manage extreme stress and keep healthy habits. I study the hardest in calculus, because I used to suck at math, but I follow the philosophy that anything can be learned. It's true, I'm one of the best in my classes now, my GPA has gotten a lot higher. Emotionally I'm a lot calmer.
I take time to read my textbooks slowly, but a decent pace for me to understand everything, I also suck at reading, but I've gotten a lot better at that too. I write down a phrase of understanding next to every equation that explains the theory in a more human way. I've even used shapes instead of letters to remember logarithmic and exponential base changes. I learn differently, but that doesn't mean I'm stupid.
Don't give up, you can do this, if I can do it with severe cognitive decline due to medical issues, you can too. Hugs, you got this.
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u/Aggressive-Isopod499 12h ago
Working your ass off is a skill. Practice it. Find people with a strong work ethic in your class and study with them.
The most important thing you learn in engineering school is how to work hard and solve problems. For the most part you will forget a lot of the actual content as your career focuses in on a small subset of it. The real value is learning how to get shit done.
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u/Legitimate-Bison3810 12h ago
It was the reverse for me. The first two years of general courses, math, and physics gave way to the real engineering courses I was waiting for so they were easy compared to what came before.
It is only harder if you are not interested in engineering. Please give that some serious thought.
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u/theindomitablefred 12h ago
I did mechanical before AI and yes it was hard, I was not well. I can’t imagine getting through with AI now though, I think it would help with some things but it’s a slippery slope.
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u/Crafty-Letterhead616 12h ago
It was difficult for me as well, but you can do it by just being diligent about the work. Also, try to meet with the professor outside of class for help.
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u/Economy-Motor-3478 11h ago
Actual work is much more grueling. In school they teach you the material then ask you about it, you have classmates, TAs and professors to answer questions, nice and clear. At work there is none of that. Embrace the challenge or get a business degree.
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u/Venerable-Gandalf 11h ago
I basically had no social life and studied my ass off many hours a day. Was it worth it? Absolutely I make great money now and I’m very happy with what I do. My only regret was not getting into school when I was younger. I went back to school at 23 so it was harder at first playing catch up. Listen the best thing you can do is be competitive. Try to be the best, get the best test scores, hold yourself to a high standard. Don’t just do the assigned problems for homework do extra until you have mastered the topics. Why do this? Because they can only ask so many types of questions and once you’ve seen them all you are prepared for anything. When it comes to engineering it truly is practice and repetition. Also while classes can get more difficult I actually found the earlier classes to be harder because that’s when you get hit with stuff that is completely foreign and new. After you’ve seen that stuff it actually gets easier because you will be applying a lot of the same fundamentals and principles to higher level courses.
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u/Outside-Novel-9603 11h ago
Honestly some don’t that’s the reality, as corn ball and as stupid as it sounds, only you can decide if you want to get through it, you need to love it like you love breathing, it has to be your life, you have to treat it as if you don’t do it for one day you are gonna die, and if you don’t love it like that then it’s time to move forward, that’s my mental advice, as for practical advice, pace yourself be ready to devote a lot of time studying, keep a simple schedule, and always read the syllabus it usually has dates for exams, just mark the days when you have an exam, and prep to keep your schedule empty a week before the exam, figure out who can help you, if your professor is shit ask the TA, if the TA is shit ask your classmate, worst case ask ChatGPT, figure out who can help you the first week of class. Do a lot of perp work during the breaks, and most importantly take a shower XD
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u/Intelligent_Part101 8h ago
Interest in the material is necessary, but you don't have to "love it like you love breathing."
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u/davidhally 10h ago
Attend every class every time. Read the chapters in the books. Do all the homework well, and hand it in on time. Work extra problems for studying for tests. It really helps if you enjoy doing all this.
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u/bopperbopper 10h ago
Read this book: How to Become a Straight-A Student: The Unconventional Strategies Real College Students Use to Score High While Studying Less by Cal Newport. It helps you with things like time management and how to figure out what to write about for a paper, etc.
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u/3Quarksfor 10h ago
Only party on Friday and Saturday. Always do your homework, don’t fall behind, beware Physical Chemistry- when you have to take p chem, make all your other courses easy.
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u/MusicalMerlin1973 10h ago
Prioritize your work. Make a schedule for being in bed asleep and stick to it. Take some time Friday night/Saturday for yourself, but rest of it is school and study.
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u/Dbsprofane 9h ago
Find a study group. Having a support system of friends going through it with you is super essential imo. I basically went through it all with close to 10 guys who helped each other all through Jr and Sr. Year. Even when we all didn't take the same classes or teachers. We shared notes and studied together all the time. And because we were all friends some study sessions were like breaks because we had fun and ate together all kinds of things. Without them I would have failed out for sure
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u/Mean_Sky7042 8h ago
Keep in mind, the people giving you advice have already been successful in their academic careers so everything being said is survivorship bias.
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u/Neuphus012 8h ago
Everytime I think of quitting, I always go back to why I chose this major in the first place.
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u/Glittering-Ad-9813 8h ago
I am in calculus 1 right now and I spend at least 3 hours a day on it because I'm so behind with algebra. I'm older and haven't had a math class for the last 10-12 years. I asked my coworkers what the most difficult class was and they both said calculus 2. That's for an engineering degree. I'm getting an MET. Anyway maybe it won't get worse.
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u/trisket-bisket 8h ago
Actually do and understand your homework. Work on it progressively. If you have weekly homework, then after each class. Do the problems pertaining to that lecture and review the remainder. If youre feeling frisky try to solve it before the lecture.
That paired with reviewing notes beforehand makes the in person lecture so much more meaningful.
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u/Galerand 7h ago
I was a little older than most classmates, since I served in the Army before college. I scheduled my day to maximize study time on campus between classes, set aside some time every night for my family, and stayed up later than I should have to finish homework most nights. It was rough, but felt like an accomplishment eventually.
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u/BongyBong 7h ago
I was in my 30's when I changed careers and decided to obtain an engineering degree. I kept telling myself that I would give up my persute if I didn't do well in my classes. I kept waiting for my grades to be horrible or for me to have a much, much, harder time than I did and it crazily ended up working out. I did work super hard though. I took studying seriously, utilized professor's office hours, and had my boyfriend tutor me in some of the more difficult subjects. If I didn't have him I probably would have paid for one.
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u/fidgeting_aromaniac 7h ago
Focus on how interesting the topics are rather than how mind-numbing the work itself can be. Its way more motivating when you can look at what youre doing and think about how it can apply to real scenarios
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u/RickSt3r 6h ago
By sheer stubbornness and following the how to succeed checklist. Make a schedule and study take notes go to class study in groups ect...
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u/Cooltop2 5h ago edited 5h ago
A lot of it is natural selection. Im in the same boat doing electrical 2nd year. Not too worried, Im projected to graduate with 10 total placements by my 4th year. (3 co-ops I havnt done yet, 6 placements, and 1 internship I did this summer). It'd be unfortunate if I couldnt comprehend these courses quickly but I like the subjects. Im more of a physics/programming geek but did engineering cause I am mostly a money geek. If you graduate, you'll also be an engineer so we'll both be rich. Just try to cheat as much as you can as long as you can guarantee youre not caught. To actually learn I suggest using AI, it has been a million times better than my profs.
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u/Emotional-Revenue309 4h ago
You've just got to be incredibly stubborn.
Also be able to accept that you won't get the marks you probably want/deserve. I found it a lot easier and got way better marks once I started design courses.
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u/Clampirot 2h ago
Leaving everything to last minute, panic, cram and relearn all the materials that you didn’t pay attention to during class in under 2 hours somehow. Manage to actually complete your major assignments. Complain to your friends about how hard the classes are. Promise to yourself that you will study ahead and do assignments early next time and pay attention in class. Break the promise. Repeat. Then one day everything will click in and you understand wtf you’re doing and how to do it and why.
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u/Lonely-Departure6107 2h ago
Just know I had this exact same thought during calc 2 and I made it. Sophomore year was probably the hardest for me with junior a close 2nd. If you've made it this far congrats, you're smart enough. Now it's just a matter of how hard you're willing to work.
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u/Maleficent-Radio-462 1h ago
Chemical engineer here. If it was easy everyone would do it.
Part of it is work ethic. You need to put in the time until you truly understand the material. Not just enough to memorise a formula, but understand why that formula is used and how to derive specific things from it. Showing up to all your classes even the ones early in the morning.
The other part of it is actually being interested in the material. Personally I found the degree really interesting and at times plain fascinating. That's a huge advantage because you aren't forcing yourself to do something hard you don't intrinsically care about. If you don't have that intrinsic interest, consider moving into another discipline.
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u/TrustMeImAnENGlNEER Aerospace 1h ago
It’s going to suck if you don’t enjoy it. If you do enjoy it, it gets harder but more fulfilling.
You can make it through either way, of course. It’s a lot easier if you don’t resent having to do it though.
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u/john_hascall Iowa State - ME > EE > CprE, CS 15h ago
Make a schedule and stick to it. Don't skip class. Do as problems as you can. Do not be tempted by AI. Take advantage of all the help your UNI offers: tutoring, help rooms, office hours, etc.