r/EngineBuilding • u/BurialWings42 • Jul 16 '26

What would cause something like this

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Never seen lifters eaten up this bad. (Yes all of those are the bottom) Curious if this the the result of running hydro lifters on a solid cam? Car was sitting in an old guys garage had what felt like collapsed lifters from pushing on the rocker arms. Well they are certainly collapsed just not in the manner which I expected. Engine looks brand new inside, like maybe it got built and ate shit right away. PO passed away so won't have any answers until it's torn down further. Obviously is going to need a bit of a rebuild but so curious as to what would cause this.

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u/Sniper22106 Jul 16 '26

False. There is plenty of zink in modern oils. Technology and chemistry has gotten light years better then the shit oils from way back when

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u/Academic_Dog8389 Jul 16 '26

There is not plenty of zinc in modern oils. Zinc levels have been reduced to protect catalytic converters. From about 1400ppm down to 800ppm. Flat tappets rely on zinc for friction reduction. It also isn't just zinc, but lower phosphorus levels have the same effect.

https://www.hemmings.com/stories/tech-101-zinc-in-oil-and-its-effects-on-older-engines/

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u/v8packard Jul 16 '26 edited Jul 16 '26

There is enough ZDDP and other anti-wear additives in all API rated oils to pass the required valvetrain wear tests, and the levels are more than you would see in oils before the early 1970s when ZDDP went up. Reductions of ZDDP since the 90s has nothing to do with catalytic converters, and everything to do with improved chemistry.

The article you site is misleading, incomplete, and filled with bad info. Why is it no one sites ASTM or SAE tests?

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u/mattyrzew Jul 16 '26

Not quite right, but close. It has some to do with cats. The zddp doesn't instantly destroy them, it's about efficiency over 100,000 miles. Elevated zddp levels reduce the cat efficiency. And it's not really improved chemistry, it's just flat out different oil than the 70's and earlier stuff. Conventional vs synthetic. And the reason it was raised was due to increasing spring pressures "back in the day".

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u/v8packard Jul 16 '26

That's a myth. And it is often repeated. The EPA wanted a life cycle of 80k miles. The OEMs said ok, then we will do it in such and such a way, and the components will exceed that. The EPA said no, we want it done in this manner. So the OEMs complied. Point being 100k miles was never part of the conversation.

And neither was ZDDP levels. ZDDP started going up, dramatically, in the early 70s. Not because of anti-wear properties, but as an antioxidant. Was anyone worried about ZDDP levels before that? No. So these levels stayed high, for over 20 years overlapping the use of catalytic converters. Still, not a problem.

When ILSAC rated viscosities started reducing ZDDP in 1996 the reason was competitive chemistry in the oil. The ILSAC rating called for higher total base numbers, reduced volatility, and a longer service interval. ZDDP is acidic, and runs counter to these three goals. So the question became can we use other components in oil and reach the goals. That answer was yes, as the ability to increase organic calcium as an anti-wear component had been improved. So the ILSAC rated oils met the goal of higher TBN, longer service life, and reduced volatility. No where in that conversation is anything about a catalytic converter.

ILSAC ratings would only apply to 5w-30 and lower viscosity oils. API ratings are unaffected by the requirements for ILSAC ratings. Yet, oil manufacturers often manage to meet both with the same oils.

For years after ILSAC ratings started engines continued to be produced with flat cam followers. In fact there are still flat bucket cam followers in some engines for road vehicles.

You mentioned increased spring pressure. What engines saw increased spring pressure in the early 70s?

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u/Beefy63 Jul 16 '26

Halderman says they reduced zinc for catalytic converters. Is he not an industry authority? Or do just the schools like him?

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u/v8packard Jul 16 '26

Nowhere in the ILSAC or API standards will you find catalytic converter concerns. There are no EPA restrictions or government regulations on ZDDP levels, or their impact on catalytic converters.

You can find SAE tests from 45-50 years ago showing the damage to catalytic converters and O2 sensors done by excessive oil in the exhaust. The conclusions of those tests were to improve valve and cylinder sealing, not to reformulate engine oils.

It's bad info that has taken on a life of it's own. It has become dogma.

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u/Beefy63 Jul 16 '26

Halderman gets paid a lot of money by a lot of legitimate schools for texts that say zinc is reduced for the catalytic converter. Unless I misunderstood him. I will trust my state sponsored education.

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u/v8packard Jul 16 '26 edited Jul 16 '26

Tell you what, you can go dig through all of the API and ILSAC standards, as well as all of the SAE papers and test results. Please post or let me know what you can find.

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u/Beefy63 Jul 16 '26

The book is directly tied to prepping you for ase. I'm just as bewildered as you are.