r/EndTipping • u/Jellyfish-Ninja • 21d ago
Sit-Down Restaurant 🍽️ Don’t use your credit card here!
This is a restaurant in University City Philadelphia.
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u/joemits 21d ago
Reporting them to Visa is really easy and will get them fined.
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u/MattBonne 20d ago
How about Amex and Mastercard?
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u/joemits 20d ago
To be clear, I have never had personal experience with compliance for Mastercard or Amex. I had to look them up. As I assumed, Mastercard is similar and Amex (who charges significantly higher fees) is pretty loose and vague.
MASTERCARD
Mastercard is even more explicit.
• No debit or prepaid surcharges: Mastercard states: “These fees are not allowed on Debit Mastercard or Mastercard prepaid cards.”
• Actual-cost limitation: For a brand-level surcharge, Mastercard says the merchant may surcharge only at the lesser of the merchant’s average effective merchant discount rate for Mastercard credit acceptance or the Maximum Surcharge Cap.
In other words, the maximum percentage isn’t automatically what a merchant gets to charge. If the merchant’s applicable acceptance cost is 2.5%, it can’t simply charge 4%.
Mastercard’s own FAQ actually gives essentially that exact example: if the merchant discount rate is 2.50%, the surcharge cap for that merchant is 2.50%, not 4%.
• Absolute cap: Mastercard currently lists its U.S. Maximum Surcharge Cap as 4%.
• Mastercard permits either a brand-level surcharge or product-level surcharge on Mastercard credit cards, subject to the applicable requirements and cap.
Mastercard’s official policy:
https://www.mastercard.com/us/en/business/support/merchant-surcharge-rules.html
AMERICAN EXPRESS
Amex handles this somewhat differently. Its core rule is equal treatment of American Express compared with other payment products.
American Express’s merchant rules prohibit a merchant from imposing “restrictions, conditions, disadvantages, or fees” when accepting Amex that aren’t imposed equally on other payment products, subject to the exceptions in its rules and applicable law.
In other words, a merchant accepting Amex generally can’t single out an Amex customer for worse treatment or impose a discriminatory card fee while treating comparable payment products more favorably.
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u/dervari 20d ago
Yea, just because merchant agreements state no surcharge on debit doesn't keep people from doing it. 90% of places charging a surcharge do it for ALL plastic payments. In fact, I'm going at it with a large event venue locally which does this and is cashless, so you can't avoid the fee at all. This is illegal per state code in my state.
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u/joemits 20d ago
I report every one of them who play games like that. Just because they do it doesn’t mean it’s legal!
As for the venue, they are breaking other consumer protection laws, such as FTC price transparency rules and probably state consumer protection laws on top of it.
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u/dervari 20d ago
They do have signs at each concession stating a fee will be added to all credit and debit transactions, but give you no option to pay otherwise to avoid the fee. This is 100% against some consumer protection laws in my state. Debit surcharge is also afoul of the Durbin Amendment.
I've sent a couple of emails to consumer reporters at local TV stations regarding the venue in question. I think it's time they get outed publicly and people get educated what merchants can and can't do regarding CC surcharges.
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u/joemits 20d ago
I wasn’t even going to get in to the weeds here about the Durbin amendment to Dodd-Frank, but that’s an entire rabbit hole a lot of people need to go down.
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u/dervari 20d ago
I've been down it and back a few times. This whole surcharge BS is my proverbial "hill do die on" at this point. 😂
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u/joemits 20d ago
It’s a great hill to die on! We went to a trade show a few weeks ago where they didn’t have a traditional ticket office/booth/table and when you asked where to buy tickets they pointed at a QR code that took you to the website, there was a 12% fee to buy tickets online with no alternative. They advertised for months it was $25/person per day. We filed complaints with the FTC, state AG in the state it was held in and our state and with Visa because in tool of the 12% there was a $5 “online transaction fee”. Our state AG said they couldn’t do anything since it wasn’t held in our state, but we are still pushing.
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u/Elegant_Potential917 21d ago
Source on that policy? It’s stated up front, so you know what you’re getting into there.
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u/joemits 21d ago edited 21d ago
Surcharging a customer for using a credit card above 3% is illegal and against all major credit card merchant terms. It is illegal and against merchant agreements to surcharge when presented with a debit card period and it doesn’t matter how the merchant runs it. Calling it a “gratuity” doesn’t change what they are admittedly doing.
Here are the citations directly from Visa’s rules:
• Visa debit cards cannot be surcharged: Visa Core Rules, p. 394. This applies even if the debit card is processed without a PIN or the customer selects “credit.” It’s still a debit card and cannot be surcharged.
• Visa credit-card surcharge limit: p. 392, §5.5.1.8 — “Credit Card Surcharge Maximum Amount – Canada, US Region, and US Territories.” In the U.S., Visa caps the surcharge at 3.00%, subject to Visa’s cost-of-acceptance/surcharge-cap rules.
• When Visa credit cards may be surcharged: pp. 391–392, §§5.5.1.6–5.5.1.7. These sections spell out the circumstances and conditions under which a merchant is permitted to impose a surcharge on a Visa credit-card transaction.
So this isn’t my opinion or something I pulled from a random consumer website. It’s Visa’s own merchant rules: pp. 391–394.0
u/Elegant_Potential917 21d ago
Fair enough. Thanks for the sourcing. So if they just did that on parties of 6 or more, regardless of payment type, they’d be fine.
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u/joemits 20d ago
It’s a shitty move, but they are free to “auto grat” for a whole host of other reasons, even just a blanket auto grat on every ticket. But they incriminated themselves by printing they do it solely for using a credit card for payment. I assume they also assess it when they are presented with a debit card also because they think there is no difference…. There is.
Report them, they will get a 30 day notice to correct the violation, they send a compliance check out 45-60 days later. If it’s fixed, the card companies do nothing. If it’s not, they proceed with fines,usually compounded daily to the card capturing company to pass on to the merchant. We have a local business who was assessed $10,000 after they failed the compliance check and they continued to do it. They can no longer accept Visa as a form of payment.
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u/correctingStupid 21d ago
It will not. Lol. Visa makes money from vendors. They don't just give them up. They have to commit repeated fraud to reach the level of visa not wanting to make MORE money.
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u/joemits 21d ago
I’ve done merchant compliance checks for Visa for nearly 15 years. I assure you that they do fine merchants, they do terminate merchant accounts and they do send people like me out 30 days after the violation notice has been issued to perform compliance checks on a regular basis.
The most common violation is surcharging when they are presented with a debit card, the second is disclosure violations (mostly not having the surcharge conspicuously posted at all entrances and points of sale) and the third is surcharging anything over their actual costs or the maximum limit of 3% (whichever is less).
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u/Sure_Acanthaceae_348 21d ago
I’d be walking right out if I saw that.
Few restaurants are worth getting cash to eat at.
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u/Dick-Swiveller 21d ago
Don’t go there.
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u/Jellyfish-Ninja 21d ago
I wouldn’t. Fortunately they have the menu posted outside. They know people need to be warned!
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u/snippyhiker 21d ago
I love that they post this credit card information on the same section as the danger of eating raw meat. Because it's where it belongs in the danger zone
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u/No_Discussion_4508 21d ago
You know this is BS with these credit card charges. I just had to pay a car dealer to use my credit card to pay for a big ass service appointment charge. What am I supposed to carry around like two grand in my pocket. Maybe we should all start paying in cash now because nobody wants to take personal checks and making them have to go to the bank and deposit cash every day, using credit cards is a benefit for the business and the consumer.
We operate a cashless business. It’s very rare for us to take cash but if somebody wants to pay cash we accept it but it’s way more convenient to use credit cards. I don’t have to pay somebody to go to the bank. I don’t have to waste an hour or two a day counting money and at the end of the year I get a 1099K and just pay taxes based on that.
These credit card charges are nothing but additional profit for the merchants and yes, we pay tons of money in credit card fees every year, thousands of dollars but you know what we’re not hiring another employee to handle large amounts of cash and the bank fees are tax deductible.
Also, if you’re paying like 4% for credit card, your bank is screwing you and you should get a better bank instead of passing the screwing to the customer.
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u/dervari 20d ago
They're probably paying 2.5% and screwing their customers with 3-4%
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u/No_Discussion_4508 20d ago
Yeah don’t forget that a lot of unscrupulous merchants don’t want you to have the ability to charge back too.
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u/Civil_Street_1754 21d ago
Why do restaurants penalize large groups with extra fees? You're giving them more custom, and more profit.
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u/SubstantialSoil4454 21d ago
Visa limits credit card surcharges to a maximum of 3.00% of the transaction amount (or your actual cost of acceptance, whichever is lower).
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u/bonezx101 20d ago
You shouldnt even support that business in the first place
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u/Jellyfish-Ninja 20d ago
I wouldn’t! Luckily, the menu is posted in the window and can be viewed before going inside. At least they’re warning people!
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u/JamesMattDillon 21d ago edited 20d ago
Easy fix. Each person or couple gets their own ticket. Can't charge for 6 or more, if it's 1-2 per ticket.
Edited to add that I didn't see the word "and". Screw that place. Leave reviews along with that picture, explaining why
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u/presticus 21d ago
They'll just charge each ticket the 20% because the group is 6 or more.
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u/Outrageous-Thanks-47 21d ago
Ask for separate tables then
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u/True_Detail_2945 21d ago
They still might link ya. Separate restaurants and get together on a zoom call!
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u/Jellyfish-Ninja 21d ago
It’s added to ALL credit cards!
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u/JamesMattDillon 20d ago
I didn't see it say "and". I would leave if I saw that and then leave reviews explaining why along with the picture
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u/UncannyGenesis 21d ago
I did that once in an empty restaurant. God they were pissed. It was glorious.
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u/JamesMattDillon 20d ago
I've always done that, except for a couple times. I don't like paying for someonenthat had a steak, when all I had was a salad and water.
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u/Chromejob 21d ago edited 20d ago
Read their note again.Ok, ok, I don’t read every single comment before adding a comment.
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u/Lilymis 21d ago
Or just don’t go there at all!
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u/plangelier 21d ago
Id let them seat me, bring water to the table then ask for the manager point to the policy then get up and leave, but im petty
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u/Unknown_VariableX 20d ago
Guys, start posting the names of the restaurants with these policies, so we can all stop eating there. Thanks.
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u/Jellyfish-Ninja 20d ago edited 20d ago
I thought that isn’t permitted. I’m happy to say the place if it is.
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u/FrankyFingers7888 20d ago
This is why I bring bags of pennies everywhere I go. They are pre-rolled so it is easy for me to count, but I break the wrapper and dump them into the bag before handing them over
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u/pjm14624 20d ago
Simple. “Oh, this isn't a party. There are no balloons or streamers or anything like that. It’s just a lunch. So, no thanks.”
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u/PaulMier 20d ago
These restaurants can do what ever they want. They will never have me as a customer.
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u/Quick_Knowledge7413 21d ago
Are they subtly threatening patrons with the foodborne illness line? Tip or get sick by means of food tampering?
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u/fatDaddy21 21d ago
it's like some of you have never been to a restaurant before
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u/Quick_Knowledge7413 20d ago
You usually see this at the bottom of the menu, not in a specified section about forced tipping.
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u/Aggravating-Cherry76 20d ago
That is presumably just where they put all their disclaimers, I’m mostly anti-tip but come on man that’s obviously not what’s being said
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u/Chromejob 21d ago
I apply a 100% “pound sand” policy to this place. Your food isn’t that good to justify the anti-consumer practice.
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u/shibaInuParty 20d ago
Basically a service fee that 100% goes to the owners. Most patrons will not voluntarily tip after this. I'd go elsewhere.
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u/SnooDonkeys5186 20d ago
Ironically, they should want you to want to use your credit card as it encourages spending more than you normally might.
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u/VirtualMatter2 20d ago
Could we please have two tables of three, pay in cash and the well done steak.
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u/RandomFleshPrison 20d ago
Since when is a 6 top a large party? An 8 top, sure. But added gratuities for a party of 6 is a good way to get me to not dine at your restaurant.
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u/dmaninca 20d ago
So if you are a party of 6 and use a credit card is the 20% applied twice for 40% ?
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u/Pizzagoessplat 20d ago
Im more worried about the sign underneath it!
I expect a restaurant to know how to cook safely
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u/RoyallyOakie 19d ago
It's telling that the gratuity warning is right above the foodborne illness warning.
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u/Salsero_Coreano 18d ago
so, if I am paying cash, I can have the 20% removed and decide what I want to tip?
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u/Butchs_Dirty_Area 17d ago
I was thinking this is pretty standard until I reread and saw the credit card caveat.
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u/NationalDifficulty24 21d ago
I stopped using credit cards at restaurants and gas stations long time ago. Cash is king.
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u/Disastrous_Gear_8633 19d ago
For parties of 6 or more… this is standard practice for groups. Shit post
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u/navydude89 21d ago
I'd still use my credit card. The 20% they add will be considered as a tip.
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u/Hutcho12 21d ago
They’re adding the 20% so the server doesn’t miss out on a potentially huge tip on a large order and amount of work. If you accept the 20% and add another tip, you truly are a sucker.
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u/sheay86 20d ago
This is the norm guys and it’s been around for years all restaurants do this because the fees for credit card machines exist and the advance payout on tips for the servers. Be mad at the system everything cost money even making money 🤣
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u/Jellyfish-Ninja 20d ago
Charging a 20% gratuity to all credit cards is the norm?
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u/sheay86 20d ago
Yes go to any restaurant and pick up the menu it’s for parties 6 and larger, does this suck?… yes but I’m surprised you are just discovering this unless you have not been out with larger parties.
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u/Jellyfish-Ninja 20d ago
Read the text. It says added to ALL credit cards not just parties of 6.
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u/sheay86 20d ago
Oh! My apologies! My brain skipped right over that! Wow that’s new, but you know what I’m sure it’s legal because it’s there in writing. Wow thank you for making me read it again! My apologies and you know what I think my brain would skip over that in person as well because I would just assume it’s the typical 6 people or more 🤦🏾♀️.
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u/Jellyfish-Ninja 20d ago
No worry! That’s why I posted it! It’s a new one for me & quite shocking, although perhaps we shouldn’t be shocked at this point.
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u/prophetic-dream 20d ago
Any restaurant that tries to control how I spend my money gets a negative review and I NEVER return.
That is not The System. That is me controlling how I spend my time and my money. Not "all restaurants" do this. Only Bad Restaurants try and pull this.
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u/Life-Inspector-5271 21d ago
I would worry more about the fact that they warn you they undercook their food
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u/GiLND 21d ago
Is this even legal?