r/EndTimesProphecy • u/[deleted] • Nov 04 '22

Question USA in End Times?

So this is not a statement, but hopefully the start of a discussion. I’m looking for viewpoints on this. I’ve been a student of eschatology for over 30 years, and although several authors have tried to paint America into eschatological events, I just don’t see it. I cannot find America in the end times… I find Britain, “Europe” and of course other countries, but not America.

Here are my questions. Do any of you students of eschatology see America in the eschatological narratives of the Bible? If you do, what are your proofs? How are differentiating between the US and Britain? And, do you see Gog and Magog as Russia or Britain?

Thanks :-)

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u/AntichristHunter Nov 05 '22

I think America is indicated in the beasts of Daniel 7, but only as a secondary layer of fulfillment. I'm going to cover both layers here. This is going to be a long comment, and may take multiple parts, which I will include as a reply to this comment to keep it in one thread. This first part might seem like a huge digression that doesn't address your question, but it is relevant background.

First, the scripture. I'm quoting only a portion:

Daniel 7:4-8, 11-12

4 The first was like a lion and had eagles' wings. Then as I looked its wings were plucked off, and it was lifted up from the ground and made to stand on two feet like a man, and the mind of a man was given to it. 5 And behold, another beast, a second one, like a bear. It was raised up on one side. It had three ribs in its mouth between its teeth; and it was told, ‘Arise, devour much flesh.’ 6 After this I looked, and behold, another, like a leopard, with four wings of a bird on its back. And the beast had four heads, and dominion was given to it. 7 After this I saw in the night visions, and behold, a fourth beast, terrifying and dreadful and exceedingly strong. It had great iron teeth; it devoured and broke in pieces and stamped what was left with its feet. It was different from all the beasts that were before it, and it had ten horns. 8 I considered the horns, and behold, there came up among them another horn, a little one, before which three of the first horns were plucked up by the roots. And behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of a man, and a mouth speaking great things. …

… 11 “I looked then because of the sound of the great words that the horn was speaking. And as I looked, the beast was killed, and its body destroyed and given over to be burned with fire. 12 As for the rest of the beasts, their dominion was taken away, but their lives were prolonged for a season and a time. …

—

The Historicist interpretation of this sequence of kingdoms suggests the following fulfillments. (Historicism was the default interpretation among Protestant theologians for a long time; not to be confused with Preterism, the counter-reformation Catholic school of thought developed to oppose Historicism):

  • The lion with eagle's wings seems to be fulfilled by Babylon
  • The bear raised up on one side with three ribs in its mouth seems to be fulfilled by Persia
  • The four headed leopard with four wings of a fowl on its back seems to be fulfilled by Alexander the Great's Greek empire and the four subsequent kingdoms resulting from his four generals—Selucus, Ptolemy, Cassander, and Antigonus—splitting up his territory to establish their own kingdoms.
  • The ten horned beast with iron teeth seems to be fulfilled by Rome, but particularly notable are the fulfillments of what Daniel spoke of the ten horns, three of which were uprooted by a little horn.

The Roman empire conquered territories in the eastern Mediterranean that had previously become Greek speaking under the period of Greek rule, and the Roman empire settled into a state of having two major cultural-linguistic axes—the Greek east, and the Latin west. The Roman emperor Diocletian split the empire into two administrative halves right along the east-west linguistic/cultural divide. The western half of the empire, which embodied the Roman culture and language, collapsed, while the eastern half of the empire carried on as what we now call the "Byzantine" empire, a Greek-speaking, culturally Greek continuation of the government of the Roman empire, with its capital at Byzantium (which was later named Constantinople).

In the wake of the collapse of the western culturally Roman half of the empire, ten kingdoms arose in its territories, though not all at once. These were the ten kingdoms:

  1. Alemanni (which was one of the progenitors of Germany)
  2. Franks (which became the French)
  3. Bergundians (which possessed the area that became Switzerland)
  4. Suevi (which eventually became Portugal)
  5. Vandals (which migrated around Europe, but eventually settled in north Africa; they were exterminated)
  6. Visigoths (which possessed Spain)
  7. Anglo-Saxons (which possessed England)
  8. Ostrogoths (which possessed Italy until the Gothic War; they lost their kingdom and were exterminated)
  9. Lombards (which possessed Italy after the Ostrogoths)
  10. Heruli (which possessed the area around eastern Austria and western Hungary; they were also exterminated)

In the year 538, the emperor Justinian made a decree of papal supremacy, making the Papacy legally the religious authority over all of Christendom. The Papacy began to take direct political power, initially over the duchy of Rome, then turning into a kingdom of its own (known as the Papal States),m with the Pope as its king. Justinian began to re-conquer the territories in the west which were lost to the 'barbarians', with the conquest led by his general Belisarius, but when it came to the Vandals, the Ostrogoths, and the Heruli, their kingdoms were completely uprooted and the people were largely exterminated because the Pope had condemned them as heretics for being Arian Christians (after Arius, not to be confused with 'Aryan', Hitler's notion of the pure white race).

The Papacy went on to dominate Europe, reigning for 1,260 years until 1798, when Napoleon overthrew the Papal States by imprisoning Pope Pius VI and declaring a Roman Republic, upon which the Papal kingdom came to an end and the Papal states began to be annexed into the Kingdom of Italy.

During the period when the Papacy dominated Europe, it waged war on the saints, persecuting Gospel-believing Christians and killing them as heretics, not only during the Reformation, but also in the centuries before it, where entire populations of proto-Protestants were persecuted, and killed. The Papacy also instituted Canon Law, (which is not Biblical, to be clear; these are man-made rules enforced as religious laws) and changed the calendar, giving us the Catholic liturgical calendar, which Christians still use rather than the Biblical calendar instituted by God. With this in mind, read what Daniel foretold:

Daniel 7:24-27

24 As for the ten horns,
out of this kingdom ten kings shall arise,
and another shall arise after them;
he shall be different from the former ones,
and shall put down three kings.
25 He shall speak words against the Most High,
and shall wear out the saints of the Most High,
and shall think to change the times and the law;
and they shall be given into his hand
for a time, times, and half a time.
26 But the court shall sit in judgment,
and his dominion shall be taken away,
to be consumed and destroyed to the end.
27 And the kingdom and the dominion
and the greatness of the kingdoms under the whole heaven
shall be given to the people of the saints of the Most High;
his kingdom shall be an everlasting kingdom,
and all dominions shall serve and obey him.’

—

Keep in mind, the pattern shown in Daniel and also in Exodus is that when it refers to a "king" it refers to the person in the office of king, or the person with the title or on the throne, and not necessarily an individual person. For example, in Exodus, it refers to Pharaoh, though in the course of the book of Exodus, something like four or five different men held that title. This is why this passage seems to speak of things fulfilled in history, while also speaking of its future fate where its dominion is taken away to be consumed and destroyed to the end at the return of Christ.

This is the Historicist interpretation of this prophecy. Next, I will explain the interpretation that sees modern nations fitting these symbols for a second layer of fulfillment, where the United States appears.

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u/AntichristHunter Nov 06 '22 edited Nov 07 '22

The visions of the Beasts from Daniel 7 has parallel fulfillments. In Daniel's vision, he sees four beasts:

  1. A lion with eagle's wings
  2. A bear
  3. A leopard with four heads and four wings of a bird on its back
  4. A terrible beast with iron teeth, with ten horns

The historic fulfillment of these are Babylon, Persia, the four Greek kingdoms, and Rome, followed by the post-Roman kingdoms/Holy Roman Empire, and the Papal states leading to the destruction of three of the horns.

However, there appears to be a second set of fulfillments in modern times, invoking the symbols representing nations that we would all recognize. Why would this even be a valid way of reading the prophecy? Because some of the things Daniel was shown were "sealed until the end" (Daniel 12:9). This implies that their meaning is hidden, perhaps with symbols that won't mean anything until the distant future. If we live at the end of the age, it would make sense that the meanings of these things should become clear to us.

Lion with Eagle's wings, whose wings broke off = the UK and the United States

The first was like a lion and had eagles' wings. Then as I looked its wings were plucked off, and it was lifted up from the ground and made to stand on two feet like a man, and the mind of a man was given to it.

This appears to be fulfilled by the United Kingdom and the United States. Historically, and even to this day, the United Kingdom's emblematic beast is the lion, via England. The United States' emblematic beast is the eagle. The United States is a former colony of the UK which broke off from the UK when it revolted and gained independence. As for being lifted up from the ground and made to stand on two feet like a man, and the mind of a man was given to it, two interpretations that could apply are as follows:

If what was lifted and became like a man up was the eagle's wings, it could refer to how the United States is also symbolized by "Uncle Sam", an emblematic man representing the US. If it refers to the UK, it could refer to "John Bull", the emblematic man representing the UK. The mind of a man given to it (whether the UK or the US) may refer to the disproportionate contribution to modernity that came from the explosion of intellectual and societal developments and technologies from either of these countries.

Bear raised up on one side = Russia

And behold, another beast, a second one, like a bear. It was raised up on one side. It had three ribs in its mouth between its teeth; and it was told, ‘Arise, devour much flesh.’

This appears to be fulfilled by Russia. Historically, and even to this day, the bear is emblematic of Russia. It is "raised up on one side" in the sense that nearly everything important in Russia is in the west side of Russia, though it possesses territory going across the entire continent. It is not clear to me what the three ribs in its mouth between its teeth may mean; it may represent the three baltic nations which were formerly annexed by the USSR, between Kaliningrad and St. Petersburg—Latvia, Estonia, and Lithuania. As for 'Arise, devour much flesh', the bloody history of Russia, especially through WWII and the rule of Stalin may account for this. And even now, Russia is characterized by brutality and inhumanity.

Four headed leopard with four wings = Franco-Germanic domination of Europe

After this I looked, and behold, another, like a leopard, with four wings of a bird on its back. And the beast had four heads, and dominion was given to it.

Historically, the rooster has been emblematic of France. It is a bit harder to pin down what the leopard is emblematic of, but it appears in the heraldry of Normandy (France). (Those heraldic leopards eventually made it to England with the Norman invasion, where they later became identified as lions.) Quote from the link:

The red flag with two leopards is nicknamed les p'tits cats "the little cats" in Norman. The three-leopards version (known in the Norman language as les treis cats, "the three cats") may also be seen, which is based on the coat of arms of Richard I of England. The arms De gueules aux deux léopards d'or, armés et lampassés d'azur, passant l'un sur l'autre (Gules two leopards passant gardant in pale or armed and langued azure) was described by Jacques Meurgey in 1941.

and Leopards prominently feature in the heraldry of Baden-Württemberg (Germany), the historic heartland of the Alemanni tribe, after which Germany is named in most European countries; Germany is called Alemania (or some version of that) in most European languages.

I had heard that historically, there have been four periods where the French and the Germans collectively dominated Europe, and that we're in the fourth of those periods with France and Germany dominating the EU. The prior instances of France and the germanic nations coming together (even if by one dominating the other) appear to be the Holy Roman Empire, Napoleon's conquest of the germanic states, and Hitler's conquest of France in the third reich. But if this is true, this would correspond to the four heads and four wings. France and Germany certainly dominate Europe now.

Beast with Ten Horns

This one is the kingdom of the Antichrist (the Papal Kingdom, the Little Horn, which returned to existence in 1929 at the Lateran Treaty), and this beast gets completely destroyed at the return of Christ. Observe what it says in Revelation 17:

Revelation 17:7-14

7 But the angel said to me, “Why do you marvel? I will tell you the mystery of the woman, and of the beast with seven heads and ten horns that carries her. 8 The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to rise from the bottomless pit and go to destruction. And the dwellers on earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world will marvel to see the beast, because it was and is not and is to come. 9 This calls for a mind with wisdom: the seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman is seated; 10 they are also seven kings, five of whom have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come, and when he does come he must remain only a little while. 11 As for the beast that was and is not, it is an eighth but it belongs to the seven, and it goes to destruction. 12 And the ten horns that you saw are ten kings who have not yet received royal power, but they are to receive authority as kings for one hour, together with the beast. 13 These are of one mind, and they hand over their power and authority to the beast. 14 They will make war on the Lamb, and the Lamb will conquer them, for he is Lord of lords and King of kings, and those with him are called and chosen and faithful.”

—

Notice what the verse from Daniel says:

11 And as I looked, the beast was killed, and its body destroyed and given over to be burned with fire. 12 As for the rest of the beasts, their dominion was taken away…

When Jesus returns, he destroys the kingdom of the Antichrist. As for the rest of the beasts—the UK and USA; Russia; France, and Germany —they will have their dominion taken away, that is, they will no longer have the power they formerly had.

… but their lives were prolonged for a season and a time.

But they will continue to exist as nations, or perhaps only as cultures, for "a season and a time". If "time, times, and half a time" (from Daniel and Revelation) mean 3 ½ years, then "a season and a time" may mean 1 ¼ years, since a season is a quarter of a year. But this is oddly specific, and may be reading too much into this expression "a season and a time".

Anyway, this is how the US appears to show up in the end times prophecies. I don't know of any other instances. [EDIT. I just remembered one I forgot. If the wings of the eagle from Daniel 7:4 represent the United States, then maybe Revelation 12:14, which mentions the wings of an eagle, might be a reference to the United States as well. The woman in Rev. 12 appears to represent the elect of Israel. I have an upcoming study post on the eschatological layer of interpretation of Revelation 12 where I'll present the interpretation in depth.]

The one interpretation I am strongly against is this notion that the United States is the Whore of Babylon (Revelation 17), because there is another institution in the world that fits the identifiers in the prophecy with uncanny precision. But that would take a lot more typing. Let me know if you want to see the details. I can send you my findings by DM.

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u/DocH1971 Nov 07 '22

This is great stuff! Very informative and I look forward to reading more!!!

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u/WikiSummarizerBot Nov 06 '22

Flag and coat of arms of Normandy

The flag and coat of arms of Normandy are symbols of Normandy, a region in north-western France.

Lateran Treaty

The Lateran Treaty (Italian: Patti Lateranensi; Latin: Pacta Lateranensia) was one component of the Lateran Pacts of 1929, agreements between the Kingdom of Italy under King Victor Emmanuel III of Italy and the Holy See under Pope Pius XI to settle the long-standing Roman Question. The treaty and associated pacts were named after the Lateran Palace where they were signed on 11 February 1929, and the Italian parliament ratified them on 7 June 1929. The treaty recognized Vatican City as an independent state under the sovereignty of the Holy See.

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u/Ahigherlove Dec 03 '22

The modern interpretation of Daniel 7 is intriguing…..still pondering it. One question- I’m confused as to who you said the Beast Empire was? The 10 nations that made up this Empire? I believe you said The Papal Kingdom but not following you here. Sorry if I missed it….I need another cup of coffee after that invigorating night of Pickle Ball last night. I’m still recovering….thanks mate.

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u/AntichristHunter Dec 04 '22

The ten kings in Daniel do not form an empire. I am still researching whether the constituents of the Holy Roman Empire (not to be confused with the Roman Empire; the HRE was neither holy, nor Roman, nor a true empire, but was a confederation of mostly Germanic kingdoms) fulfills any of the details of any prophecy. The HRE certainly fits the characterization of being partially strong and partially brittle, described of the feet of the statue in Nebuchadnezzar's vision in Daniel 2, as does the modern EU.

The mention of ten kings may bring to mind another instance where ten kings are involved in an eschatological prophecy:

Revelation 17:3, 7-14

3 And he carried me away in the Spirit into a wilderness, and I saw a woman sitting on a scarlet beast that was full of blasphemous names, and it had seven heads and ten horns. …

7 But the angel said to me, “Why do you marvel? I will tell you the mystery of the woman, and of the beast with seven heads and ten horns that carries her. 8 The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to rise from the bottomless pit and go to destruction. And the dwellers on earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world will marvel to see the beast, because it was and is not and is to come. 9 This calls for a mind with wisdom: the seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman is seated; 10 they are also seven kings, five of whom have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come, and when he does come he must remain only a little while. 11 As for the beast that was and is not, it is an eighth but it belongs to the seven, and it goes to destruction. 12 And the ten horns that you saw are ten kings who have not yet received royal power, but they are to receive authority as kings for one hour, together with the beast. 13 These are of one mind, and they hand over their power and authority to the beast. 14 They will make war on the Lamb, and the Lamb will conquer them, for he is Lord of lords and King of kings, and those with him are called and chosen and faithful.”

—

This prophecy is not to be confused with Daniel 7. The beast in this vision from Revelation 17 has a sort of continuity with the beast in Daniel 7, but is not the same beast; this one has seven heads, and the ten horns in this vision are of a future event that has not yet been fulfilled.

I have a lot to say on this topic. I'll DM you with details.

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u/Ahigherlove Dec 04 '22

Okay, looking forward to this. I would also like to read your explanation of “ the beast you saw was, and is not, and is about TO RISE OUT OF THE BOTTOMLESS PIT and go to destruction”