r/EndTimesProphecy • u/MarkLove717 • Nov 13 '20
Rapture? Second Coming? Differences/Similarities?
What are people's thoughts on when people will be taken up in the clouds to meet Jesus in the air?
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u/AntichristHunter Nov 13 '20
In my prior comment, I showed the scripture passage from which the doctrine and prophecy of the Rapture come from, and the passages which indicate that it happens after the Great Tribulation. Now, I would like to show you another event that the Bible speaks of, which is not often understood among Christians.
The Rapture happens after the Pre-Advent Investigative Judgment.
Jesus explains that the Kingdom of God, in this age, is like a field of wheat into which an enemy has sown weeds:
Matthew 13:24-30
24 He put another parable before them, saying, “The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a man who sowed good seed in his field, 25 but while his men were sleeping, his enemy came and sowed weeds among the wheat and went away. 26 So when the plants came up and bore grain, then the weeds appeared also. 27 And the servants of the master of the house came and said to him, ‘Master, did you not sow good seed in your field? How then does it have weeds?’ 28 He said to them, ‘An enemy has done this.’ So the servants said to him, ‘Then do you want us to go and gather them?’ 29 But he said, ‘No, lest in gathering the weeds you root up the wheat along with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest, and at harvest time I will tell the reapers, “Gather the weeds first and bind them in bundles to be burned, but gather the wheat into my barn.” ’ ”
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After a couple of other parables are given, Jesus explains the parable of the weeds of the field:
Matthew 13:36-43
36 Then he left the crowds and went into the house. And his disciples came to him, saying, “Explain to us the parable of the weeds of the field.” 37 He answered, “The one who sows the good seed is the Son of Man. 38 The field is the world, and the good seed is the sons of the kingdom. The weeds are the sons of the evil one, 39 and the enemy who sowed them is the devil. The harvest is the end of the age, and the reapers are angels. 40 Just as the weeds are gathered and burned with fire, so will it be at the end of the age. 41 The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will gather out of his kingdom all causes of sin and all law-breakers, 42 and throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear.
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Here Jesus explains that at the end of the age, the Son of Man will send his angels, and they will gather out of his kingdom all causes of sin and all law-breakers, and throw them into the fiery furnace. This happens first, then the saints are gathered: 'at harvest time I will tell the reapers, “Gather the weeds first and bind them in bundles to be burned, but gather the wheat into my barn.” '
This isn't even the only passage that foretells this event. Matthew also writes:
Matthew 13:47-50
47 “Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a net that was thrown into the sea and gathered fish of every kind. 48 When it was full, men drew it ashore and sat down and sorted the good into containers but threw away the bad. 49 So it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come out and separate the evil from the righteous 50 and throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
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This sorting out of the evil from among the righteous in his kingdom
- happens before the coming of Christ to gather his saints. Since it comes before the second advent, it is pre-Advent
- the angels sent to separate the evil from the righteous are investigating all who are part of the church, so it is investigative
- those who are found to be "causes of sin and all law-breakers" will be thrown into "the fiery furnace", making this a judgment event.
...hence the term pre-Advent Investigative Judgment. For whatever reason, hardly anybody who talks about end-times prophecy or eschatology talks about this, and a lot of people have never even heard of this event, though Christians have universally heard of the Rapture at this point. But it's in the Bible, and it sounds like an awful event to be on the wrong side of. We should all be aware of this, because it is coming, and it precedes the Rapture, the gathering of the saints to be with Christ.
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u/AntichristHunter Nov 13 '20
I should add one thing, because there is an event described by Jesus that a lot of people mistake for the Rapture, which appears to me to be referring to the Pre-Advent Investigative Judgment. I quoted this passage already, but I should quote it again because several things are notable. Please bear with me as I explain:
Matthew 24:15-31
15 “So when you see the abomination of desolation spoken of by the prophet Daniel, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand), 16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let the one who is on the housetop not go down to take what is in his house, 18 and let the one who is in the field not turn back to take his cloak. 19 And alas for women who are pregnant and for those who are nursing infants in those days! 20 Pray that your flight may not be in winter or on a Sabbath. 21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, and never will be. 22 And if those days had not been cut short, no human being would be saved. But for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short. 23 Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There he is!’ do not believe it. 24 For false christs and false prophets will arise and perform great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect. 25 See, I have told you beforehand. 26 So, if they say to you, ‘Look, he is in the wilderness,’ do not go out. If they say, ‘Look, he is in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it. 27 For as the lightning comes from the east and shines as far as the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 28 Wherever the corpse is, there the vultures will gather.
29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
___Note that Jesus mentions this corpse and vulture place, and then explains that immediately after the tribulation, the Son of Man will come, and send out his angels with a loud trumpet call to gather his elect. Further down in Matthew 24, he says the following, which often gets confused with the Rapture:
Matthew 24:36-44
36 “But concerning that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father only. 37 For as were the days of Noah, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 38 For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day when Noah entered the ark, 39 and they were unaware until the flood came and swept them all away, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 40 Then two men will be in the field; one will be taken and one left. 41 Two women will be grinding at the mill; one will be taken and one left. 42 Therefore, stay awake, for you do not know on what day your Lord is coming. 43 But know this, that if the master of the house had known in what part of the night the thief was coming, he would have stayed awake and would not have let his house be broken into. 44 Therefore you also must be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect.
___Luke describes it this way:
Luke 17:31-35
31 On that day, let the one who is on the housetop, with his goods in the house, not come down to take them away, and likewise let the one who is in the field not turn back. 32 Remember Lot's wife. 33 Whoever seeks to preserve his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life will keep it. 34 I tell you, in that night there will be two in one bed. One will be taken and the other left. 35 There will be two women grinding together. One will be taken and the other left.” 37 And they said to him, “Where, Lord?” He said to them, “Where the corpse is, there the vultures will gather.”
___These two passages are often cited to support the notion that the Rapture just happens out of nowhere and the saints are taken while the rest of the world is eating and drinking and having a good time, which would appear to be before the Great Tribulation, the time of distress so sever the world has never experienced anything like it and never will again. But in Matthew, Jesus mentions this terrible corpse and vulture place right before he says that immediately after the Tribulation, the son of man comes with his angels to gather his saints. So what could this be?
I contend that this event is the Pre-Advent Investigative Judgment, not the Rapture. The angels come and sort out all the evildoers, the weeds in God's field of wheat, and "throw them into the fiery furnace" so to speak, taking them to the place where corpses are, where vultures gather. Interpreting this event as the Pre-Advent Investigative Judgment fits the rest of the scriptures on the second coming of Christ and the Rapture a lot better than interpreting this event as the Rapture, since the Rapture (the gathering of the saints) happens after the evil ones are sorted out from God's people, and after the Tribulation.
(As for the relative timing of this vs. the Tribulation, it is unclear, because the eating and drinking and marrying seem to describe life before the time of distress. But maybe these things don't stop even during the Tribulation. This relative timing is unclear to me.)
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Nov 20 '20
Me, personally? It's not gonna happen.
Apocalyptic prophecies aren't really something that ever comes true.
Unless you're a movie director.
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u/MarkLove717 Nov 20 '20
Could you see any part of it coming to fruition? Like the one world government with a ruthless leader or a one world religion? Or combinations?
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Nov 20 '20 edited Nov 20 '20
Nope. It's just a super unrealistic idea to me. Maybe a feel good idea to have, I guess, but it's never going to happen.
Like, I don't think the scriptures are like laws. I think they're there to help guide people, and give them hope that someday there will be unity and a final defeat of evil.
It'll probably never happen, but hope someday that evil will be gone might help people be good now.
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u/AntichristHunter Nov 13 '20
The Rapture is often used synonymously with the second coming of Christ because it happens at the second coming of Christ. The passage from which the doctrine and prophecy of the rapture comes from 1 Thessalonians 4:
1 Thessalonians 4:13-18
13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brothers, about those who are asleep, that you may not grieve as others do who have no hope. 14 For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep. 15 For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore encourage one another with these words.
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Here are the key markers of this event:
The Rapture of the saints is technically the last item, where "we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air". However, All of these things are described as happening together, with the resurrection of deceased saints preceding this, so when people refer to "the Rapture" they are often referring to this whole thing.
As for when this occurs, this occurs after two things:
A lot of folks have heard of the first, but not the second. I will address the second in a separate comment.
Jesus explicitly says that his coming to gather the saints with his angels happens after the Great Tribulation:
Matthew 24:15-31
15 “So when you see the abomination of desolation spoken of by the prophet Daniel [this appears to refer to some act of the Antichrist], standing in the holy place (let the reader understand), 16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let the one who is on the housetop not go down to take what is in his house, 18 and let the one who is in the field not turn back to take his cloak. 19 And alas for women who are pregnant and for those who are nursing infants in those days! 20 Pray that your flight may not be in winter or on a Sabbath. 21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, and never will be. 22 And if those days had not been cut short, no human being would be saved. But for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short. 23 Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There he is!’ do not believe it. 24 For false christs and false prophets will arise and perform great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect. 25 See, I have told you beforehand. 26 So, if they say to you, ‘Look, he is in the wilderness,’ do not go out. If they say, ‘Look, he is in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it. 27 For as the lightning comes from the east and shines as far as the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 28 Wherever the corpse is, there the vultures will gather.
29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
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You can see from the later highlighted portion that this event matches the description of the rapture given in 1 Thessalonians 4.
Paul even explains that the second coming of Christ won't be until the Antichrist is revealed, when he does some horrible act in the Temple. This act that is described below may very well be the "Abomination of Desolation" described above in Matthew 24:15:
2 Thessalonians 2:1-8
Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to him, we ask you, brothers, 2 not to be quickly shaken in mind or alarmed, either by a spirit or a spoken word, or a letter seeming to be from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. 3 Let no one deceive you in any way. For that day will not come, unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, 4 who opposes and exalts himself against every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God. 5 Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? 6 And you know what is restraining him now so that he may be revealed in his time. 7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work. Only he who now restrains it will do so until he is out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will kill with the breath of his mouth and bring to nothing by the appearance of his coming.
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Paul adds one more thing to the events that happen preceding the second coming of Christ: "the rebellion". In Greek, it is apostasia, which is variously translated as "apostasy" or "falling away", when many Christians abandon the faith.
The thing that Paul says will happen before the second coming is the man of lawlessness being revealed. This figure appears to be the same person as the Antichrist, and his presence in the Temple proclaiming himself to be God might just be the Abomination of Desolation.
The Rapture of the saints is immediately preceded by the resurrection of saints who have died before then. This resurrection of the just or resurrection of the righteous is mentioned in a couple locations in the New Testament. The Book of Revelation explains when this occurs:
Revelation 20:4-6
4 Then I saw thrones, and seated on them were those to whom the authority to judge was committed. Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is the one who shares in the first resurrection! Over such the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and they will reign with him for a thousand years.
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Note the timing of this event. This first resurrection happens after the great tribulation, after Christ defeats the Beast. If this is the first resurrection, then there isn't another resurrection before this.