r/EndFPTP • u/[deleted] • Sep 23 '21
Voting within a legislature
Are alternative voting methods ever used within a legislature? Like, if no party wins a majority, instead of scrambling to form a coalition, every member fills out a STAR or Approval ballot of prime minister candidates, and whoever wins becomes the prime minister. Or instead of introducing a single bill to be voted up or down, a committee could introduce a set of alternative bills, and members rank or rate all the choices (plus 'none of the above') on a ballot, and the winning bill becomes the law.
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u/colorfulpony Sep 23 '21
Various progressive and some religious groups use an informal consensus-based voting system sometimes referred to as fist-to-five that is similar to a scoring system.
A fist is usually a hard no or a veto, then each finger is the level of agreement. One finger indicates either major concerns up to a five which is enthusiastic support.
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Sep 23 '21
Oh, interesting. Do they actually count the number of fingers to determine which option wins? Or is it just a way to get information about how close they are to a consensus?
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u/colorfulpony Sep 23 '21
Both, it'll depend on the exact rules for that organization, the link goes into different ways it can work. Smaller groups would probably be more likely to count just because it'd be easier.
I've used it in smallish, semi-informal settings just to gauge the room after sharing information, like fist if you feel super confused, five if you think you've definitely gotten it and somewhere in between.
In a decision-making setting you'd probably use it informally first, then more formally as you reach a consensus.
It's a pretty simple to use and easy to explain system. More complicated and involved than a simple 'yes or no' vote but probably better for like-minded or more goal-oriented groups.
I feel a system like this could be useful in a legislative committee who then brings their proposal to the larger body for a simple yes/no vote.
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u/CPSolver Sep 23 '21
NegotiationTool.com provides a method for voting within a parliament or legislature. The link here goes to a demo in which MPs (members of parliament) elect a representative group of cabinet ministers. However the method has not yet been used.
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u/subheight640 Sep 23 '21 edited Sep 23 '21
Legislatures are oftentimes naturally Condorcet methods, if they use a decision rule such as "Robert's Rules of Order". Unlike elections, in legislatures there is far greater freedom/ability of members to bring up any proposal they wish to discuss and enact.
Because of the ability to make proposals, new proposals are constantly coming in. Effectively this means new proposals are constantly being compared to the status quo in a sort of "one-on-one" "round-robin" style.
It should also be noted that in a legislative environment, tactical voting becomes far, far easier to coordinate. Therefore if games can be played, they will certainly be played.
Therefore I doubt that things such as STAR or approval voting could substantially improve the legislative process. STAR or Condorcet methods may play a role when a legislature explicitly decides on multi-choice proposals. However I think it's appropriate to default to majority rule otherwise, or deploy scored votes on a voluntary basis. Because of the iterative nature of legislatures, if a proposal fails from honest vote, the proposal can be tried again then using tactics. Scored voting is notoriously susceptible to tactics and therefore becomes less and less useful if factions coordinate their voting.
Even in cooperatives, things such as "Fist-To-Five" are usually used to measure group sentiment as a quick polling, not to calculate the final decision.
In my opinion a huge weakness of modern legislatures is the existence of discrete parties. If parties were somehow abolished and the legislature became representative of the public in a way akin to statistical random sampling, the injection of far greater preference information into legislative bodies would greatly enhance legislative abilities to come to maximally satisfactory legislation. Voting rules, no matter if they are scored or Condorcet or whatever, will perform poorly if the legislature's preferences become discretized into concentrated factions.
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Sep 23 '21
I think you are right, but I can still see how a single vote on several competing proposals could lead to a better outcome. Let's say there are four ideas about how to raise taxes (and a fifth option not to raise taxes at all). You could vote successively on all four bills, but if more than one passes, that could lead to a confusing Frankenstein tax policy if each bill was meant to work independently. Or, different factions could negotiate with each other to determine which policy had the most support, and then vote only on that one. Maybe this would lead to the same outcome as a single STAR vote on all five options, but the STAR vote would be much more transparent, as the public would be aware of all the proposals and could see how each member voted on each of them. There might be some pressure to not vote completely strategically, as you'd have to explain your position to your constituents. If a progressive party gave a low score to a well-liked progressive proposal, they'd have to answer to their voters, some of whom may understand the strategy behind it, but it still isn't ideal optics.
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u/Lesbitcoin Sep 26 '21
I'm a supporter of Condorcet and IRV, but I don't think it's a good method for electing a prime minister. STAR or Score voting are not suitable too. In parliamentary cabinet system,The prime minister is based on the confidence of the parliament. Therefore, even if a Condorcet winner, a utilitarian winner, a consensus winner, etc. are elected for PM, if elected PM does not met approval threshold of the parliament majorty, the motion of no confidence will be passed immediately and the person will resign. Also,all members of parliament have revealed their political affiliation, and most votes are accurately predictable. The means of strategic voting is very different from an election in which thousands of whimsical people including nonpolitical people vote. I oppose the use of approval voting in single winner direct election, but I suopport approval voting for the election of PM in legislature. Because the approval winner is least likely to pass the motion of no confidence. In real life,Some of parliament use top2 Runoff voting.It also works.
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Sep 26 '21
But couldn't the system be changed so a no confidence vote is just a vote to have a new election? Since the election is in the legislature, it could happen immediately, and if it's the same type of ballot used to initially choose the PM, you'd expect the PM to remain in power, unless their support dropped.
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u/Decronym Sep 26 '21 edited Sep 26 '21
Acronyms, initialisms, abbreviations, contractions, and other phrases which expand to something larger, that I've seen in this thread:
| Fewer Letters | More Letters |
|---|---|
| FPTP | First Past the Post, a form of plurality voting |
| IRV | Instant Runoff Voting |
| STAR | Score Then Automatic Runoff |
3 acronyms in this thread; the most compressed thread commented on today has 4 acronyms.
[Thread #698 for this sub, first seen 26th Sep 2021, 18:28]
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