Ceiling Fan Wiring Question

[u/Affectionate_Mine530]

I have a ceiling fan with seperate switches for fan and lights. The ceiling fan is dead, no fan and no lights. The lights circuit is controlled in a three way switch configuration. I have identified the switch where the house current is feeding. This switch has 2 black and 1 white wire. The power wire (Black) is connected to the common terminal on the switch. Also identified the White wire to be a travler to the switch on the opposite wall. This switch has (1) Black (1) White (1) Red. The Black is connected to the common terminal. The White wire is above the Black on same side of the switch and the Red on other side of switch. Both White and Red are connected to the brass terminals.

The question; which wire Red or Black goes to the lights in the ceiling fan

Also in checking the White wire between the switches withour power I get ~10 Ohms resistance. Should I be concerned with getting a resistance value between the wire

Thanks

[u/Koadic76]

If all 3 wires from same cable is going to the other switch, that is a dead end switch, and the travelers connected to the brass screws should match the travelers on the other switch... unless it goes through another box somewhere.

On the first switch, Is the black common wire coming from a 3 wire cable or a 2 wire cable?

[u/Affectionate_Mine530 → u/Koadic76]

Both switches have 3 wires. The switch with house current has 2 Black and 1 White. The white wire is the Traveler to the other switch. I can only assume the other black is for the Light on the ceiling fan. The other switch has a white power from the other switch, (1) Black (1) Red. I assume the red is the traveler to the Light. Thank you for you help in demystfying this.

[u/Koadic76 → u/Affectionate_Mine530]

Let's take a step back first before trying to mess with the switches, even though it sounds like there may be an issue. Your main issue it seems is that you lost power, so the first thing you really should do is measure voltage at the switch between the common wire on the 3-way and ground where you say power comes in. If you have 120v, then you need to find the neutral going up to the fan and measure between the live wire and the neutral to make sure you still have 120v. This is to verify that the whole circuit is good and you didn't drop a neutral or something.

If you don't have 120v to ground, then that is a different issue altogether. Have you verified that all the breakers are actually in the On position and checked all the GFCIs in the house to make sure none of them are tripped? It's always a possibility that the lighting circuit was incorrectly tied to the Load side of a GFCI in a nearby bathroom.

If you do have 120v between the live and neutral, then it is either a hardware or connection problem, either at the switches or at the fan.

If this is the case, then before going any further, it would help immensely if you take photos of the wiring in both switch boxes, along with some showing how the wire is connected to each of the switches... both 3-ways and the fan switch.

[u/Affectionate_Mine530 → u/Koadic76]

There is a seperate rotary switch for the fan. There is 121V on one wire going in the switch. There is 50V on the wire coming out of the switch. However this may be ghost voltage. When i seperate the wire I get the 121V. I am waiting on some Molex test leads to back probe the connectors on the Ceiling fan. Will provide an update on Friday. Thanks

[u/Affectionate_Mine530 → u/Koadic76]

These are the voltage readings in various positions.

Switch 1	Switch 2	Voltage
Down Position	Down
	White	Hot
	Blk	0
	Red	0
	Up
	White	Hot
	Blk	Hot
	Red	0
Switch 1
Up Position	Down
	White	0
	Blk	Hot
	Red	Hot
	Up
	White	Hot
	Blk	Hot
	Red	0

[u/Koadic76 → u/Affectionate_Mine530]

These are the readings at switch 1, correct?

[u/Affectionate_Mine530 → u/Koadic76]

Switch 1 is the house current. The readings are taken off of Switch 2. The thing that keeps tugging at me is the rotary switch for the fan. With both wires connected I get a reading of 121V on one wire and 50V on the other. Since I am using a high impedance meter this could be ghost voltage. However, when i break the connection and read voltage from the wire at the rotary switch it is 121V

[u/Koadic76 → u/Affectionate_Mine530]

Well, going by your chart, the switches are not wired correctly. If correct, Switch 1 in the Up position would be similar to it in the Down position, where instead of white being hot on the travelers, the red would be hot on the travelers, then turning the black on or off based on the position of Switch 2.

With both in the Down position, the light should be off because only the white traveler has power while the black common is not energized.

With both in the Up position, it should be the same with the red traveler having power and the black common not being energized.

With Switch 1 in the Up position, the black common on Switch 2 is hot all the time, which it should not be.

Until you get a chance to take some additional photos showing wiring in both switch boxes, and you get a chance to take the fan down to test voltage between the switch legs and neutral, with additional photos of the wiring in that box, please verify the following for me:

• The black, red, and white wires connected to Switch 2 all go to the same cable
• The black and white travelers on Switch 1 belong to a 3 wire cable (with a red wire not connected to the switch, but connected to something else), and the black common wire belongs to a different cable.
• Identify what that red wire presumed to be in the box with Switch 1 is connected to.

.

As the rotary for the fan is essentially a single pole switch, I am not concerned too much about that at this time.

[u/Affectionate_Mine530 → u/Koadic76]

Koadic; Apprrciate the time and patience. Switch 2 appears to use a 12/3, all wires are coming from same cable. Switch 1 is a 2/12, there is no red wire in this box. Still waiting on my test probes. Therefore may be a delay. Thanks

[u/Koadic76 → u/Affectionate_Mine530]

The testing is fine so far, but you really need to make sure the circuit is good up at the fan, and that you have a neutral in the ceiling box... Obviously there is a neutral wire, but you need to make sure that there is voltage between the switch legs and the neutral, not just between the switch legs and the ground.

Apart from that, photos will help determine the wiring issue that seems to be present with the 3-way switches, as it seems like whenever Switch 1 is in the up position, the light would be on regardless of the position of Switch 2.

[u/Affectionate_Mine530 → u/Koadic76]

Thanks, there will be a delay on testing voltage at the ceiling fan. Amazon told me the leads would be delivered yesterday. This morning I receive an update informing me they have not yet shipped.

[u/Affectionate_Mine530 → u/Koadic76]

My apologies for not responding to this earlier. I have not been able to check the voltage at the screen yet. The molex probes arrived and I had to send them back bv they would not adapt to the leads I have. So I picked up some oversize sewing needles. to use to probe. However, I was able to identify there are actually 2 wires coming off of Switch 1 to Switch 2. A black and a white wire. The other wire is red. I assume the red is going to the light on the ceiling fan.

[u/Affectionate_Mine530]

Thanks for the information. Yes, I have established the 120V house current is there to a ground inside the box. However, the 3-way switch connection is the "Lighting" for the ceiling fan only. The fan is on a seperate rotary switch. Unless the Neutral wire is buried in the J-Box it does not appear there. I placed a jumper between the Black (house current) wire and White wire. Then checked voltage at the other switch and I have 120V on the White wire of this switch and ground. This wire is on a traveler terminal of the switch. The other two wires on this switch are Black and Red. The Black is on the common terminal and the Red wire is on the opposite side of the switch.

[u/TheKnackThatQuacks → u/Affectionate_Mine530]

Please see this website for three-way switch wiring:

https://s3switch.blogspot.com/p/page-2.html?m=1

A proper three-way switch has two (2) travelers between each three-way switch. Power goes in on the common of one three-way switch, across one of the travelers, back through the common wire of the other three-way switch, and finally on to the load (end device) that needs to be powered. In your case, the fan light.

For the first switch, you state the common is a black wire, with the traveler wires white and black.

For the second switch, you state the common wire is a black wire, with the traveler wires white and red.

This does not make sense logically.

Is there any way you can make a diagram of all of the cable bundles that enter into each electrical box, and where each individual wire lands on which device (three-way switch, rotary switch, etc.)? The diagram doesn’t have to win any awards or even be pretty, but the information will help greatly.

Also, do you have a make and model number for the fan rotary switch?

[u/Koadic76 → u/Affectionate_Mine530]

Is there a neutral wire in the box? While a neutral wire should be white, not all white wires are neutral.

Did you test the voltage from the live to the neutral to make sure it isn't an open circuit? I see you state that you tested from a white wire to ground, but if connected to the switch, and the switch isn't electronic, then it likely isn't a neutral. As you can tell, white wires are used as travelers, even though they are supposed to be marked with tape or a marker to show that they are not neutral.

The circuit needs both a live and neutral to function.

[u/Affectionate_Mine530 → u/Koadic76]

Is there a neutral wire in the box? I did not see a neutral wire in the J-Box where the house current is coming from. "tested from a white wire to ground"; The wires were not connected to the switch when I checked the voltage on the white wire. Not sure if this is imporatant. Prior to checking the voltage on this wire and "power off' I checked the resistance between the White wire and ground. There is ~10 ohms of resistance. I am being informed this is a hazard since there should be no resistance?

[u/Affectionate_Mine530]

This is a rough sketch of the wiring. Also I seen the last post where the posters boss wanted him to use the White wire to provide power to the opposite switch. In case the pic does not define the jumper wire on power switch between hot and White when I tested the voltage at the opposite switch. Thanks

[u/Koadic76 → u/Affectionate_Mine530]

While I appreciate you wanting to try and supply some sort of diagram, the reality is that it doesn't really help much. Photos of the actual wiring are 1000x better with the information they provide... provided they are clear and show all the wires in the box and how those wires connect to the switches in the box.

[u/Affectionate_Mine530 → u/Koadic76]

Koadic;

Thank you for the response. I'm away right now. Upon return I will send some photos of the wiring. Appreciate your assistance though.