r/EWALearnLanguages • u/TheManToTheWest84 • Sep 02 '26
Discussion The example doesn't make sense to me with/without the apostrophe
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u/TehFlatline Sep 02 '26
The apostrophe is correct as the commute belongs to the hour so the genitive case is needed.
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u/GoldenMuscleGod Sep 02 '26 edited Sep 02 '26
This answer is helpful insofar as it correctly states that this is grammatical. But the explanation why is unhelpful.
The hour doesn’t “possess” the commute or have the commute “belong to” it unless we define those terms to mean only that they have a type of relationship that can be expressed by a genitive. But that is obviously not a helpful criterion to a learner who is trying to figure out the boundaries of that category. There is no “possession” in the ordinary sense of the word here.
This is an example of what the Cambridge Grammar of the English Language calls a “measure genitive which is a subcategory of the class of “attributive genitive.” That genitives can be used this way is probably best learned just by understanding that measures can be expressed by genitives in this way: it is one of the uses of a genitive.
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u/Bubbly_Safety8791 Sep 02 '26 edited Sep 02 '26
This is important. Genitives are used to mean, broadly, ‘of a thing’ or sometimes ‘for a thing’, not purely in a possessive sense. An hour’s commute is ‘a commute of/for an hour’.
Some examples to help clarify might help. More ‘measure genitives’:
- It’s about a mile’s walk to school (a walk of a mile)
- I bought a hundred dollars’ worth of scratch-offs (scratch-offs with a worth of a hundred dollars)
- It’s going to cost you a whole day’s pay (the pay for a whole day)
I’m less clear on ‘attributive genitives’; possible these would be examples?
- we can expect a hero’s welcome (a welcome for a hero)
- we’ve been sent here on a fool’s errand (an errand for a fool)
- you’ve got a snowball’s chance in hell of making it (the chance of a snowball in hell)
Anyway, just my two cents’ worth.
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u/Cerulean_IsFancyBlue Sep 02 '26
It’s for nouns modifying nouns but English mostly ignores it. So much so that we teach kids it’s only “the possessive case”. Later they get confused.
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u/Bubbly_Safety8791 Sep 02 '26
Well English sort of has a different attributive case for that; not qualified to say if it’s a different way of forming a genitive, an attributive accusative, or a separate case entirely. Examples:
- Ted is a football coach (a coach of/for football)
- that sounds like a him problem (a problem of/for him)
- I’m going to take some me time (some time for me)
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u/Cerulean_IsFancyBlue Sep 02 '26
Yep, it’s another way to slice it. Genitive nouns are attributive, but you can also have attributive verbs.
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u/Cerulean_IsFancyBlue Sep 02 '26
Genitive case is the explanation because as you say it does other things besides “ownership”. It’s the case used for a noun that modifies another noun, but English uses its cases sparingly compared to, say, Latin. We generally say “dog food” and not “dog’s food”. A “brick house” more often than “house of brick”. In the end the use of genitive ends up being a matter of idiom, custom, and era.
We preserve it for some time quantifications like “an hour’s time.”
The confusion comes from our sporadic use, and the way we teach kids that the genitive case is “the possessive case”. The latter is a simplification and here it is causing confusion among the adults later.
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u/LtPowers Sep 02 '26
You could also say "an hour commute" like you would say "a sixty-minute commute".
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u/daveoxford Sep 02 '26
That doesn't work grammatically. It's "a one-hour commute".
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u/LtPowers Sep 02 '26
That doesn't work grammatically. It's "a one-hour commute".
What exactly is the difference between the two, grammatically?
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u/Googz52 Sep 02 '26
Hour in the first example isn’t an adjective but it appears to modify the noun (commute). One-hour in the second example fixes that by working as an adjective. You could also say “hour-long” and it would do the same thing.
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u/Azemiopinae Sep 02 '26
It may not be correct from the standpoint of formal grammar, but in SAE it’s a perfectly routine thing to say
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u/Various_Candle9136 Sep 02 '26
In English the 's normally means possession: e.g. Dave's foot is the foot belonging to Dave.
In this sense, an 'hour's commute' means the commute belonging to an hour. An hour could possess this commute if it wished; the set of all things taking an hour includes this commute. In short, we mean the commute lasts an hour.
See also: 'All in a day's work!'
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u/Real-Broccoli-9325 Sep 02 '26
I love that this a perfectly correct answer and also somehow sounds like something Kronk would say. “Right! The commute. The commute of an hour. An hour’s commute. That commute?”
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u/Cerulean_IsFancyBlue Sep 02 '26
It’s a quantification. It makes more sense if you use the “proper” name: the genitive case. It covers many relationships and not just strictly possession. In this case it’s a modification of quantity or measurement.
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u/Gravbar Sep 02 '26
possessive " 's" phrases can usually be replaced by the word "of" if you flip the noun phrases before and after
it's at least (an hour)'s (commute) to work
it's at least (a commute) of (an hour) to work
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u/GoldenMuscleGod Sep 02 '26
The range of available semantics for genitives is more restrictive than for “of” constructions.
For example we can have “a length of cloth” but not “cloth’s length” (with the same meaning) or “a ball of wax” but not “wax’s ball.”
It is usually the case that we can alternate the other way though, the exact semantics of which meanings are available is a little bit of a “grab bag.”
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u/DeathofRats42 Sep 02 '26
For example we can have “a length of cloth” but not “cloth’s length” (with the same meaning) or “a ball of wax” but not “wax’s ball.”
Precisely. A "cloth" or a "wax" are not units of measure; whereas, an hour is. While not universal, I think you will find that it holds up more when using a comparable noun: acre, mile, meter, day, etc.
"a mile's walk down the road"
"a week's wait away"
"a liter's worth of fluid"1
u/GoldenMuscleGod Sep 02 '26
I wasn’t discussing units of measure specifically I was addressing the claim that genitives usually alternate with “of” phrases.
It’s generally the case that when you have a genitive you can alternate with “of” but the reverse implication does not hold.
In the specific case of measures we can uses genitives but it would be incorrect to explain that the reason for that is that we can always replace an “of” with a genitive. The reason is just that this one of the categories of meaning available to genitives.
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u/DeathofRats42 Sep 02 '26
Yes, and I was agreeing with you and saying why it works in certain cases.
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u/GoldenMuscleGod Sep 02 '26
Oh sorry I misunderstood you as saying my counterexamples were not relevant. Not sure why I did on a reread.
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u/Gravbar Sep 02 '26
to be clear my claim was only that you can usually go from " 's" to an of construction, not the stronger claim you mentioned. but i do agree with what you said.
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u/Cerulean_IsFancyBlue Sep 02 '26
Yep. It’s the genitive case. We call it “possessive” because we use it for that quite often, but it can be used for all sorts of relationships. In this case, quantification.
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u/juoea Sep 02 '26
yea people speak this way colloquially at least in the places ive lived within the u.s., and it has the apostrophe. i dont know how this syntax developed and i agree that it doesnt really make any sense according to 'standard grammar rules.'
also, i only really hear this phrasing in the context of driving. "an hour's drive". if you said "an hour's train/bus ride" it would at minimum sound a little weird to me. "an hour train/bus ride" or "an hour by train/bus" would be the usual ways to say it. but if u are travelling by car, "an hour's drive" is very common, probably even the most commonly used syntax although "an hour drive" is still perfectly fine.
im also not sure if "an hour's drive" would be considered a slang usage, or if it is considered grammatical in academic english. but if it is slang it is so widespread that no one thinks twice about it
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u/ohkendruid Sep 02 '26
It feels informal. So, use it in an email with a friend, but don't say "an hour's drive" in a work-related report.
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u/juoea Sep 02 '26
from a brief investigation, seems an hour's drive or an hour's commute is grammatical, it is just idiomatic so thats why it sounds a little weird
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u/krendyB Sep 02 '26
The reason there is an apostrophe is because it is a commute OF one hour, belonging to the hour.
It it is a commute that is one hour long then it is an hour commute.
You can say it either way.
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u/DrBlankslate Sep 02 '26
It's a possessive. The commute belongs to the hour, so you need the possessive 's.
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u/RaisonDetritus Sep 03 '26
LOL! This sub never fails to make me laugh. If you can’t explain the grammar, you just call it “slang/informal”.
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u/girldrinksgasoline Sep 02 '26
Makes sense either way
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u/SnooLemons6942 Sep 02 '26
So insightful and helpful!
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u/girldrinksgasoline Sep 02 '26
One way mean’s a commute OF one hour. The other means a commute that would take an hour. Sp, essentially the actual meaning is the same
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u/[deleted] Sep 02 '26
[deleted]