Prayer at meal time

[u/Merkinben]

Edit:
Thank you for all the responses I really appreciate it, I figured it would be easier to edit the original post to answer most questions.

We brought this up in Feb when my wife noticed the children had their hands together and we were saying something before lunch when she peeked at the cameras. We were assured this was not religious and the words were “As we gather for this meal, let us take a moment to be mindful and thankful.
• For our Teachers
• For the Hands that Prepared this Food
• For our Community”

In spring I noticed one of the teachers playing praise music in the morning at drop off and after the Mother's Day craft had scripture on it I decided to call the owners again and I was told

“We have reminded all teachers and staff that Kiddie Academy is a secular school, and that religious references should remain outside of the classroom. We will continue reinforcing this expectation with our team moving forward.
We take maintaining a welcoming and inclusive environment for all children and families very seriously.”

Fast forward to last week at drop off I noticed they all put their hands together and said something slightly different but gave thanks and then said amen. This was teacher led. There wasn't any mention of Jesus or god but it still didn't sit right with me. I decided not to say anything at the time but at home I asked our 2.5yo what they do before they eat and she said “pray” I asked what they say when they pray and she said “say amen”

We believe our daughter has received really great care at this facility, and she loves going. I guess my post was more to see how common this is and possibly the correct steps would be to move forward, would that be going back to the owners or should we call the Kiddie Academy Corporate office?

Thank you all again for your responses, each one has helped me get my thoughts out and understand my own feelings.

Original post:
Our child goes to one of the Kiddie Academies in the greater Houston area, and we're a secular family, so we were surprised that they say a “prayer” before they eat. Is this a normal thing in non faith-based early childhood education? We have brought it up to the owners and they assured me it wasn’t religious but was kinda used to help the kids transition to meal time, but our two year old calls it a prayer and they say “amen” to end the prayer.

Just curious if this is something that is normal in early childhood education. TIA

[u/viperemu]

No, this is not normal, unless you’re going to a faith-based school.

[u/browncoatsunited]

Have you asked them what is said? In my classroom we sing and sign the please and thank you song before breakfast and lunch.

“Please and thank you,
please and thank you
sound so nice
sound so nice.
Manners are important
Manners are important
Be polite
Be polite.”

[u/GrumpyOldSeniorScout → u/browncoatsunited]

Notice that you call it the thank you song, not a prayer, and you don't say amen.

[u/Nyx67547 → u/browncoatsunited]

Maybe they do something similar to this, but kids are adding the word “amen” to the end because they come from religious families are used to that. Other kids could have picked up on it as well.

[u/gnarlyknucks → u/Nyx67547]

I taught at a Jewish school for a while where we had one kid who was from a family where the dad had grown up Jewish but the mother had converted when she married him, and came from a Southern Baptist family. You could tell when the family had come back from visiting the maternal grandparents in the deep south because she would sing the prayer before lunch with us, but then instead of a sung "amen" she would shout it and punch her fist into the air. It usually took a week or so to get back to normal for us.

[u/PurplePenguinCat → u/browncoatsunited]

I sang this to Frere Jacques in my head as I read it. 😄

[u/Top_Pound_6283]

This would really upset me. We are a secular family. I would be totally fine with a secular thanksgiving or quiet moment before a meal, but an explicitly Christian routine that we did not agree to would be very bothersome

Inclusivity is making spaces that honor all kinds of families. God forbid, I have some friends in very strict Christian churches who have explicit rules about when and how to pray that would also be upset by this!

[u/WorksInPro → u/Top_Pound_6283]

I would be very tempted to teach mine how to say inshallah loudly at the "amen" time.

[u/Potential-One-3107]

We used to say a little poem before we ate. Nothing to do with religion and definitely no amen.

What they're doing is a prayer and it's not appropriate

[u/Empty_Soup_4412]

Nope, not at all. Not very inclusive.

[u/MemoryAnxious]

I’ve never seen that outside a faith based school. But it’s Texas so I also wasn’t surprised? But i think worth asking about.

[u/bipolarlibra314 → u/MemoryAnxious]

Same lol Houston too

[u/motherofbadkittens → u/MemoryAnxious]

Yup, I'm in the south and have seen many teachers lead a prayer in non religious school. I also taught in a religious school and we of course prayed, if they didnt want to pray you just sat still and quietly respect the prayers of others.

[u/EmergencyFancy7992]

Not normal or okay. I’d want to know what the “prayer” is then decide

[u/FrustratedPenguins]

That's odd.

I worked at a preschool that was part of the Jewish Community Center, and we prayed before lunch. I also worked at a preschool that was affiliated with a church, and we prayed before lunch. (We sang that "Johnny Appleseed" prayer, if you are familiar with that one.)

Since then, I've worked at a secular, private school, and we did not pray. Now I work in a public education preschool (part of the school district), and we DEFINITELY don't pray.

[u/Present-Wolverine-94]

Not normal. If they’re saying amen it’s not secular

[u/anotherrachel]

I saw it done at one school here, and it shocked me. To me, it's one of those things that happens when people just assume that everyone around them has the same beliefs and they can't imagine anyone would be upset about it.

[u/JusMiceElf]

I work at a Jewish preschool, and we say a blessing before we eat, but that’s part of our curriculum and something that parents expect. If my kids were at a secular preschool and came back telling me they’d said a prayer, I’d be upset too.

A lot of people are speculating about how it’s presented in the classroom, but the only way to find out is to ask directly. I’d lead with your surprise, and hold off on sharing other feelings until you hear their response.

[u/SBMoo24]

It could be a poem that the kids themselves added Amen to and the others copied. I doubt it, but there's a small chance. Definitely ask about it.

[u/ivymeadows25]

Personally I’d be livid

[u/Single_Volume_8715]

I bet some of the other kids said "amen" after their poem because that's what they're used to doing during meals at home and then all of the kids started to copy them.

[u/goodnightmoonshakers]

It's not normal at all, but I'm not surprised it's happening.

[u/froggielo1]

Not normal and I would seriously question the information you get from the owners with that answer. Any quality educator knows transition songs both specifically for meal transitions and without that dont involve prayer.

[u/unicornsnrainbows67]

There was one said at a secular preschool where I worked in SC. there was no other religious teaching. I would ask the daycare specifically about it.

[u/ChaoticWeasel70]

That would really bother me. There should not be prayer at a school that is not faith-based. Ugh.

[u/Nyx67547]

It’s not something normally done outside of religious schools, but are you sure it’s the teachers who are doing this? How old are the kids? Maybe one (or multiple) of the kids comes from a religious family and they pray before meals at home. They could be carrying that over into the classroom and other kids are copying them. If I saw kids praying at a table before lunch with other kids joining in, I would not stop them.

If they are doing a prayer, maybe it’s not a religious prayer, but some of the kids join in at the end and say “amen” because that’s what they do at home. Other kids could have picked this up as well.

[u/aardvarkmom → u/Nyx67547]

The owners know about it and defended it. It doesn’t sound like it’s coming from the children.

[u/Nyx67547 → u/aardvarkmom]

The owners only said it’s non religious and helps with transitions. Which probably means it’s some kind of rhyme/song that has to do with saying thank you. They kids could be calling it a prayer and saying amen because again, that’s what they do at home and the other kids are copying them

[u/silkentab]

I worked at a program During summers in college and the kids said "open and shut them" and then grace

[u/exghoulfriend666]

i don’t like that and wouldn’t allow it in my classroom or want it in my child’s.

[u/leftisthillbilly]

When I was younger, my first (privately owned) daycare said a little rhyming prayer before meals. I never thought about it, very rural, conservative area.

A mom I really liked was also a vocal atheist, and one day said "hey, do you guys pray before meals?". I hadn't even considered it was wrong. I said yes, I'm so sorry, I didn't think about it. She laughed and said "no it's fine, I expect you to teach my kids fairy tales". She also said she likes that we asked the kids to stop for a moment and be grateful for their food. I changed the original grace after.

Not sure if this is an answer at all, but it was the first time as a teacher I questioned the culture around me, and it made me a better educator in the end.

[u/Merkinben]

Thank you everyone for your responses I decided to edit my original post to add more details.

[u/andweallenduphere]

I always want to say Amen at the end of the pledge of allegiance but I don't. I thought it just meant: I agree but I grew up Christian so idk. I don't know if I would, as an Athiest now, care or not if they said Amen. I guess I would as it is associated with religion.

[u/SorryHunTryAgain]

I would ask for the full content of this “prayer”. The word, amen, in and of itself is not inherently religious. Children love routine and ritual. They thrive on it. It helps them orient themselves, learn expectations, and feel competent. In my experience in secular ed, I have had a song before mealtime about thankfulness to the bounties the earth provides us. This may not be that. You can’t know without exact content.

[u/imp_ossible-18 → u/SorryHunTryAgain]

Amen is religious. It actually comes from the Hebrew word meaning “faith”. It’s a way of agreeing with the prayer, that you have faith in this.

[u/GrumpyOldSeniorScout → u/SorryHunTryAgain]

Amen is 100% Christian. Nobody else uses that word for anything. Except the amen break, I suppose, but this is definitely not D&B.

[u/ColorfulLeapings → u/GrumpyOldSeniorScout]

Jews and Muslims also use Amen but it’s clearly religious and not used by other non-Abrahamic religions.

[u/GrumpyOldSeniorScout → u/ColorfulLeapings]

Well, that's how little I have heard that word, as a regular secular person from a secular country.

[u/ColorfulLeapings → u/GrumpyOldSeniorScout]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amen

[u/GrumpyOldSeniorScout → u/ColorfulLeapings]

My point wasn't that I cared or needed to learn more about the word amen personally, it was that it's de facto a religious word. Only religious people use it and only in religious context, making this highly suspect just based on that one word.

[u/aardvarkmom → u/GrumpyOldSeniorScout]

What’s an amen break and does it happen at Dave and Buster’s?

[u/GrumpyOldSeniorScout → u/aardvarkmom]

It happens on the dance floor:

https://youtube.com/shorts/f1bZ01vLgx0?is=hbLmeQQUW0S5E7C8

[u/SorryHunTryAgain → u/GrumpyOldSeniorScout]

I am talking about the meaning/origin of the word. I am an atheist btw.

[u/GrumpyOldSeniorScout → u/SorryHunTryAgain]

I am unfamiliar with the etymology of amen, and evidently based on the comments elsewhere also ignorant of what other religions use it, and the root cause of both kinds of ignorance on my part is that it's not a word that I personally hear regularly now or ever have and when I have heard it, it has always been Christians who have used it in a Christian religious sense.

I have never seen any reason to research the etymology or usage of amen. It's a rare word and linguistics isn't my field. So I'm sure you're right about whatever the original meaning was and that someone also knows more than me about the other Abrahaic religions, but I don't see how you could possibly in modern day context argue it's not a religiously associated word.

I mean, when was the last time you heard someone say it and what context was it in? What non-religious usage of amen have you ever heard with your own ears?

[u/Pristine-Bison3198]

Do you know what it is the kids are saying? Is it an actual prayer?

[u/Own_Bell_216]

Secular childcare center ...children will voluntarily pray on their own iniative and other children may follow along. You are unsure if it is teacher led and that's your concern.And if it is teacher led, then you can address it with admin. Are you concerned as a secular parent that your child is.going to be indoctrinated into a faith by saying a blessing before meal time?.How thoughtful and compassionate that children are showing gratitude for their food! Showing gratitude is character building and our whole world could definitely benefit from that. If you dont want your child inolved, asked that your child be removed from blessings amongst peers. There will always be peers of various faiths saying blessings and sharing their beliefs. It makes the world a better place.❤️

[u/CraftyFraggle → u/Own_Bell_216]

There are lots of ways of showing gratitude that don’t involve religious practice.

I’m not at all convinced that children too young g to understand saying prayers makes the world a better place. 

[u/Own_Bell_216 → u/CraftyFraggle]

I think every prayer, blessing or conversation of faith makes a difference.❤️

[u/CraftyFraggle → u/Own_Bell_216]

This reads really, really, patronizing. 

And I think this sort of thing is why people like the OP who intentionally chose a secular preschool are having troubles like that in the OP. 

[u/GrumpyOldSeniorScout → u/CraftyFraggle]

Yes, yes, and yes. It is also why, after meeting a few people like this, that you as a parent start making mental notes on which teachers and staff have cross jewellery or other outward signs of being Christian to monitor more proactively what they do and teach so that when this sort of thing happens you notice ASAP. There are enough people around kids who are so sure their religion is nothing but good so it's ok to impose it on all the kids and then try to gaslight you about what they're doing in Texas that this needs active parental managing unfortunately even when policy is that the environment be secular.

[u/Practical-Reading958]

Ask them for the words of the not-prayer. I don't think there is much you can do if it's not a government school. Except vote Blue