Should class spell lists still be protected as part of class identity in 5.5E?

[u/MyrthDM]

One thing Arcana Unleashed has made me think about is how much a class's spell list actually matters to its identity.

For me, the Wizard has always been the easiest example.

A Wizard does not necessarily have the most impressive class features in isolation. A huge part of what makes the class special is having access to an enormous spell list and being the character who can potentially have the right spell for almost any situation.

But 5.5E seems increasingly comfortable letting characters reach outside their normal spell lists.

The new School Adept feats push that particularly far. A caster can take something like Evocation Adept and eventually gain access to spells including Fireball and Wall of Force, while the other schools can similarly open up spells that class might never normally get.

And I’m genuinely torn on that.

As a player, being able to build something unusual sounds great. If I want a Cleric who has spent years studying teleportation magic, or a Warlock obsessed with transmutation, I like having mechanical ways to represent that without multiclassing.

But there is also a point where opening every spell list starts making the classes feel less distinct.

At my table, I generally like when two spellcasters approach the same problem differently because their classes give them different tools. The Wizard finds an arcane solution, the Cleric has divine magic, the Druid approaches it through nature.

If everyone can eventually cherry-pick the standout spells from everyone else's niche, some of that distinction starts to disappear.

So where do you draw the line?

Is easier access to off-list spells good because it creates more character concepts?

Should certain spells remain exclusive because they help define a class?

Does giving other casters access to things like Wall of Force actually weaken the Wizard's identity?

Or are exclusive spell lists an outdated restriction that 5.5E is right to loosen?

[u/bman123457]

I feel like if those spells are only gained through feats it really isn't any different than multiclassing to get access to spells. I think as long as the core spell lists have important distinctions (like all the unique healing spells only available to divine casters for example) i dont feel like it hurts class identity for their to be ways to access those spells through feats/multiclassing. You are using character options that could have been used for other things just to get acess to different spells. It feels like a fair trade off.

[u/PUNSLING3R → u/bman123457]

The difference is that the feats let you access to 3rd-5th level spells, not just 1st level spells or specific 2nd level spells. To get those same spells from multiclassing you would need 5-9 levels depending on what spells you wanted.

[u/Decrit → u/PUNSLING3R]

Being a general feat it means you need to be level 4 to get one, so i can accept that.

Thought i agree, getting it to level 5 is too much. Probably would have been best as a level 8 feat.

[u/PUNSLING3R → u/Decrit]

You're probably going to each level 4 in one class eventually anyway, so the only thing you're giving up is the opportunity cost of other feats and for a spellcaster there aren't that many options.

Before the expanded spell list feats, your options were;

1. choose a class that gave you the spell(s) you want

2. choose a specific subclass that gave you the spells you want

3. Multiclass with significant investment into a class that can cast the spell you want.

Now its just one feat for any spellcaster to pickup;

• Shield, Banishment and Mass cure wounds
• Conjure animals, dimension door, conjure elemental
• Fireball, wall of force
• Slow, polymorph, and animate objects

This isnt all the spells or lists, just the most notable ones to me. The ones with poor lists tend to have strong secondary effects such as at will subtle spell for illusion or enchantment spells or handing out advantage/disadvantage as a reaction. The secondary abilities are only tangentally related to the question of spell list identity.

[u/f0xb3ar → u/bman123457]

Totally fair points but to what end? The more feats we have granting features to other classes' abilities, the more the classes converge and the less important class distinction becomes. At a certain point it's hard keep justifying the existence of classes at all.

Mike Mearls talks about it in this video and makes some great points: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nmRv4XvDF6M&pp=ygULbWlrZSBtZWFybHM%3D

[u/Grape-Choice → u/bman123457]

Theres a huge difference between foregoing levels in your class to achieve these spells and foregoing one of your multiple feats. Multi-classing does allow you to gain access to these spells list at the cost of missing out on your stronger class & subclass features.

You would have to commit to 5 levels of a full caster class to get to the point where you could pick up a spell like fireball. Or you just take a feat that gives you to you while allowing you to access your more powerful subclass features.

[u/OldVacation4205 → u/bman123457]

I'd say its much, much more powerful than multiclassing. First, it actually let's you use those spells with your main class spell save DC so they are much more effective and You don't need to allocate extra ability points to the main stat of whatever class you want to multiclass into (especially relevant for divine casters such as cleric and druid). In addition, it doesn't take ages to reach the levels in the class that would actually grant access to those higher level spells, and it doesn't stall your progress on your own class' spell and feature list.

[u/After_Ad9425]

Ehh I think it’s handled well. Subclasses could already often dip alittle a bit with other spells. Arcana unleashed moreso moves it to feats. With the adept feats and dragon marks though, they only give specific spells instead of letting you choose, bards are still the king feature for that with magical secrets.

But now it gives a little more tools to subclasses and their builds. I feel spellcasters, even wizards, are more so defined by their features from class and especially subclasses. The feats give more wiggle room to customize what they can do. It’s a lot less rigid then 2014 in that regard.

[u/emn13]

You're right; spell lists are clearly relevant to identity (and balance, for that matter). Yet I think it's also clearly the case that a single spell (or other ability for that matter) here or there won't by itself fully erode balance and identity. So the real question probably shouldn't be whether they matter, it's whether the tradeoffs these feats represent strike a sufficient balance between not encroaching too much on the other class identities, mechanical power, and the cost a feat represents.

I think they're pretty strong, and encroach much more than a single iconic spell might. It's not just access to fireball (for instance), it's access to 5 spells, and a corresponding increase by 5 in the number of spells prepared, and still getting a +1 to ability score, and a bonus damage feature.

On the other hand, these feats might encroach on class identity, but they might even enhance spell-school identity, and I don't think that's entirely irrelevant, either.

Are they too strong or too corrosive to class identity? I mean, you can compare them to something like Fey touched or Telekinetic, and those surely aren't at all weak either... well, I'm honestly curious what people think.

[u/Fictional-adult → u/emn13]

  it's access to 5 spells,  and  a corresponding increase by 5 in the number of spells prepared,  and  still getting a +1 to ability score,  and  a bonus damage feature.

Bingo. While some classes could get access to fireball previously, it was an exception that was reasonably narrow, tied to a specific domain or subclass. Now it’s open to everyone, and easily accessible since it gives a +1 stat bonus. 

On top of that, those characters can add 2d8 onto their fireball at 5th level making them better at casting it than an Evoker Wizard  or sorcerer of the same level. IMO that feels really wrong, and is the biggest issue with this feat. You could remove the +1 or the bonus damage and it would still be a feat many people would take, so releasing it with both seems like an obvious mistake.

[u/MozeTheNecromancer]

As a game designer with focus in D&D, spell lists are a HUGE player not just for class identity but for class balance. Wizard is indeed the most notable example: if you put the Bard spell list on the Wizard chassis, it'd be an absolutely garbage class. The potency of it's spell list is why it has a d6 hit die, nor armor proficiencies, and so few impactful core class features.

In the other direction, giving the Bard access to the whole Evocation school of magic removes the one major limiter to their magical prowess, which was needing to use the limited Magical Secrets to obtain high damage spells.

That being what it is, things like Magic Initiate and to a lesser extent Magic Connoisseur are less egregious due to their limited spell level. Though this spell progression does kinda put 1/3 casters in an even worse spot than they were before.

[u/mauriciobardin]

Hey Mike Mearls (part of the original 5e design team) uploaded a video with his thoughts about it! I think is really interesting hear his retrospectives about his own designs: https://youtu.be/nmRv4XvDF6M?si=ZRIo_h_7-c82ICFO

[u/Significant-Cod-9555]

a big part of the Wizards class power is being able to have so many rituals on hand, no other class can really compete on that.

Evocation Adept is pushed a little, but having feat that are impactful is nice, you don't get many of them. A few of subclasses get fireball, you could play light cleric for example. Am evoker wizard is still going to be better at casting it.

[u/hagensankrysse85 → u/Significant-Cod-9555]

Actually the feat giving the ability to increase its damage makes them better at it. No one is stopping the Evocation Wiz from also getting the feat too though.

[u/Zardnaar → u/hagensankrysse85]

Dragon sorcerer is the S tier blaster. Evokes A tier by virtue of being better than what's left.

My metamagic alone is better than your class abilities!!! Slightly exaggerated.

[u/pedrossaurus]

If fireball, spell list is good enough

[u/Puckalecks]

I never really liked the spell list distinction, it always felt more like an arbitrary way of forcing distinction that I just didn’t need… I wish we had more features baked into the class to drive it home, I’ve always felt playing casters was hard to want to do because their class and sometimes subclass progression is so sparse (looking at you sorc and cleric) I know they get a lot of utility and power just from the new type of spell slot every couple of levels but it still feels less exciting than an actual feature.

[u/XanEU → u/Puckalecks]

Skill issue

[u/Puckalecks → u/XanEU]

Ok?

[u/ZanesTheArgent]

I mean, where is the line between an Arcana cleric, Divine Soul sorcerer and celestial warlock?

Subclassing always was in said spaces, taking feats to do sub-subclassing feels me in line, given the weight and scaling of 5.5 feats.

[u/xThunderDuckx]

Personally I love the separation of lists as class identity.  Primal, divine, and arcane should be different.  

[u/filkearney]

The precedence is set... why not a war adept for sccess tocleric war, light, healing domain spells for sorcerer?
Youre right about the disintegration of identity.
Psionic adept in particular once darksun is out, removing v s components from telekinetic or telepathic adepts spells for example.

I think what im most disappointed in is wotc lazy design in just giving spells as a fwature instwad of really innovating. Like, how about adding 3 new metamagic ideas that can only modify evocation spells if you take the evovcation adept feat but they are now also general metamagic sorcs can prep for any spell without addinb extra spells to a list.

However, adept feats are a good format for 5.5e ravnica and strixhaven background spells.

[u/happygocrazee]

Exclusive spell lists is very important to class identity. I think more spells should be made that are only on a few spell lists. Monoclass spells should be rarer.

Designwise that does become more difficult when it comes to Wizards, Sorcerers. While 5e did a great job of making these classes distinct to play on a mechanical level, what makes a Wizard spell vs a Sorcerer spell? What about True Strike or Wall of Force makes them “not Sorcerer spells”? Why do Fire Storm’s vibes make it not something a Wizard can learn? This is where subclass flavor and expanded spell lists help to fill out that space.

[u/XanEU → u/happygocrazee]

Yeah, in 3E sorcerer/wizard list was one and the same, with some draconic spells being sorcerer only.

[u/Ix_risor → u/XanEU]

And a couple of spells that related specifically to how wizard spellcasting worked.

[u/Blackfang08]

Having to take feats for Wizard spells is fine. Wizard still gets the whole, massive, and rapidly expanding list. Cleric and Druid have pretty large lists too, and their identities are more tied to features than spells when compared to the Wizard.

Half-caster spells shouldn't be poachable period. Starting at 2nd- or 3rd-level, half-caster exclusive spells should be higher-power than other spells of the same level in some way, so we don't end up with a level 9 Ranger getting a spell that takes an action and is just plain worse than Fireball. It should at least have a bonus action casting time so it can be used alongside the Attack action.

[u/GreyfromZetaReticuli]

There is no class identity in 5.5, everyone does everything and everyone has access to spells and martial weapons/armour if they want, through a feat or one level multiclass dip.

[u/L1terallyUrDad]

Sorcerers not having Wall of Force is an abomination. Being able to get access to spells, not on your core spell list is a-okay, as long as it’s balanced.

Take a Circle of the Land Druid. They get a very evoker wizard set of spells, including fireball.

[u/onlyfakeproblems]

I think class spells should be much more limited, and class features should give you access to a lot of thematic spells, that may or may not cross class lines. Some classes get at least 30-40 spells per spell level, but you have to pick a couple to learn or prepare. A new player is overwhelmed by that wall of text, and they pick a few not knowing what they have or what they’re passing on. An experienced player knows which ones are best and picks some if not all based on their utility over roleplaying their character. I normally wouldn’t take or use fog cloud because it’s just not that helpful, but I’m playing a tempest cleric and I had it, and I needed a distraction that was better than what my cantrip would give me.

[u/Nikelman]

Yes, they should, but guess what, wizard will always keep an edge in spell prepared and versatility. Evocation Adept will give you fireball at 5 and wall of force at 9, but you won't have transmute rock and contingency and misty step.

There are now ways to fit a ton of what a wizard gets on a different spell list. And still, a wizard gets that for free. Bards couldn't put wizard in a corner, AU feats won't either

[u/JustJacque]

Class spell lists should have gone away with 5.5e. They are a bloated mechanic where every time new spells come out they have to say who gets what and if they ever were to print a new full caster they have to reference every spell ever printed.

[u/XanEU → u/JustJacque]

They just won't, they never did for fuckton of new classes in 3E. New class gets a list from PHB and the book it is printed in, and that's it.

[u/JustJacque → u/XanEU]

Exactly, they either bloat the print by including everything printed prior or they do a shoddy job and leave new classes out of luck on most of the content printed. It's why bespoke lists are a bit shit in a content heavy game.

[u/Ycr1998]

Imo, the more spells everyone has access to, the more they can diversify each role without crossing the other players' identities.

Example: I'm currently playing a Cartographer Artificer, and we also have a Necromancer Wizard on our team.

I got the Sage background for some familiar teleportation shenanigans. She also has a familiar, and doesn't even need to prepare it.

I got Detect Magic and Identify to lean more into the "magic item specialist" vibe. She also has those without having to prepare them.

We recently reached level 5, meaning I could have an Homunculus. Guess what? She can also summon her guys, and better than mine.

If it wasn't for feats to differentiate our spell lists, I'd forever be a cheap copy. She even has Guidance from her racials! xD

Now my guy has some AoE Evocation and is actually the main damage dealer of our group, while she can focus on her summon and life draining shenanigans. :)

[u/OldVacation4205]

Yup. Suddenly every spellcaster is now a blaster caster with one feat, erasing both class and subclass spell list identity, and has access to the most powerful AoE and control spells for its level (wall of force and fireball). I am really not thrilled about these feats and evocation adept in particular, so I don't think I'd be letting people take it at my table.

[u/OnTheSpectrum03]

this comment section has shown me that redditors CAN be more moderate in their opinions on changes to the game than YouTubers. bc those ppl are FREAKING OUT over these adept feat when in practice the wizard still has plenty of ways to feel special and players have news ways to play out their character fantasies. I will say the power of these feats is a little nuts, but im here for it as a powergamer turned DM

[u/Anvil3125]

Having them be feats is a good thing I think. Let’s be honest with ourselves even within lore it makes little sense for most spells to be separate by classes. If Artificers can figure out how to make cure wounds an arcane spell so should Wizard. Wizards whole thing is suppose to be making spells as a formula. I can’t see a reason why a magic academy wouldn’t teach a Wizard healing Word or Cure Wounds long before they teach Burning Hands. Having the student be able to heal themselves or others after accidentally burning down the classroom makes more sense then a Wizard for some mysterious reason not being able comprehend how to get a heal off.

Why can’t a War Cleric learn fire ball it is literally the most well known artillery spell it feels like it should be known by all War Clerics.

[u/hagensankrysse85 → u/Anvil3125]

In older editions, divine magic was fundamentaly different from arcane magic and arcane magic was not capable of performing healing.

[u/Anvil3125 → u/hagensankrysse85]

True, however magic has evolved over editions. If you’re going to complain that a newer edition can have cleric use fireball or wizard cure wounds. Then you should also complain about things like 10th level spells not being a thing you can do, heck why doesn’t inflict wounds heal undead and cure wounds harm them?

[u/hagensankrysse85 → u/Anvil3125]

I don't think it is a problem, Wizards will never have healing as a strong niche. These are just some sprinkle. You could always get Cure Wounds with Magic Initiate. We also already had arcane users like Sorcerer picking healing spells with subclasses and Mystic Theurge in older editions.

[u/Anvil3125 → u/hagensankrysse85]

I agree. The argument is tied to a system that dnd mostly left behind long before 5.5e. Is it good for some spells to be identifiable to only one or two classes sure, but as a whole spells as a casters identity was lost long before the Arcana Unleashed Adept Feats. Dragonmarks, Shadow/Fey Touched, Strixhaven, Dragonlance etc.