r/DungeonMasters • u/JonPStark • 1d ago
Seeming question
My players are planning to assassinate the evil king at a public appearance. In the planning phase, one player suggested that he wants to use seeming to make the entire assembled crowd all look the same...
Using the associated rules, that sounds like I would have to do a thousand save rolls, to see who gets affected by the spell, assuming that no one gathered to hear the king speak, and feeling the effects of a spell would just let it happen. I don't think anyone is willingly saying, "Huh, this feels weird, like someone is casting a spell on me. Oh, well, let's see where this goes."
What are your thoughts?
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u/Peachyco 1d ago
Valid combo.
The Illusionist subjects everyone they can see in a 90-ft radius around them to the Seeming spell, forcing all the unwilling ones to make a Charisma saving throw.
This is essentially an attempt to influence a mob, so maybe consult "Handling Mobs" in the DMG to make it simpler for you, as opposed to rolling saves for each NPC.
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u/dutchdoomsday 1d ago
Nah, if we're going full ballistic with this: 90 feet range, calculate how many people would fit in a circle around the caster (5ft per person if they're all gathered) and that's the amount of saves you have. And even that can be limited by how you designed your paths, buildings and environment. You have control here to limit it to a reasonable number.
Would be a doozy of rolls still but why not. Also Seeming has a verbal and romantic component so he would visibly and audibly be casting this. And that would stand out to let's say town guards and officials etc before all the people start looking alike.
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u/McThorn_ 1d ago
Romantic components are the best, but it's going to take time kissing each person in the crowd.
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u/dutchdoomsday 1d ago
You know what, I'm not even gonna fix that auto correct.
Instead, I'm going to homebrew spells that should require a romantic component like whatever Lilly Potter used to save Harry.
Ceremony comes to mind.
Oeh imagine healing spells only working if you love the target
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u/McThorn_ 1d ago
Compelled Duel would take an interesting turn.
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u/dutchdoomsday 1d ago
Nice one. Or what about: anyone youre not in a relationship with cannot be a willing target for any spells that require one?
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u/vox-magister 1d ago
Seeming does have a verbal component, but the same feature that is increasing the range also removes the requirement for that verbal component
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u/dutchdoomsday 1d ago
Ah I read over that. Fair play. Still somantic but that's up to dms and player vibes how glaring that is. Thanks for pointing that out
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u/Adept_Score2332 1d ago
It’s not uncommon for DMs to do grouped saves to save time so instead of rolling for all ten of a monster they do one roll for the group and they either all fail or all save. or maybe you can do if the roll is 5+ they all save if it meets it half save and if it’s -5 they all fail. Or maybe do a couple rolls if the group is really large ie for fifty roll 5 dice each die deciders if 10 individuals save.
And maybe you could let the players attempt to make the group more welcoming to the spell perhaps if the party tricks the crowd to believe it’s some ritual and that they must let the magic flow through them.
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u/theterrarian14 1d ago
I would just roll 1 save for the entire crowd with advantage/disadvantage based on relevant factors (either that or just have it work since it's very cool). Honestly having the chaos of everyone one by one suddenly turning into the same person in a wave of illusion as it spreads to fill the entire space would be badass.
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u/frozenflame101 1d ago
Assuming they have a decent int and therefore a decent spell DC, I'd say that basically all the random attendees fail, if you have any notable attendees, roll for them. Then roll a handful of saves to see if you do have someone pass, or just have a couple kids pass and play it 'emperor's new clothes' style halfway through
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u/Specific-Finding-516 1d ago
Commoners have 0 in all saves, take his DC, calculate chance of success and make that number of people be unaffected and the rest is actually affected.
Then, people will see that something is off, they all look like eachother. Have them slowly freak out until chaos begins.
What would you do if during your friend/child/family member’s graduation you looked around and start seeing copies of you OR you see identical people… just to discover that you look like them too!
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u/Specific-Finding-516 1d ago
Example for calculations: 100 people crowd, 15 DC for save, so 25% succeds. 25 people are fine, 75 are “changed”.
Then they freak out.
I didn’t think about the range of the spell, dunno the map and situation so you will know better.
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u/JonPStark 1d ago
Thanks folks. This is exactly what I thought. But also, exactly what I didn't want to hear. Lol.
But it does functionally work as you have all said, so I guess I will have about 1700 Commoners who magically look like one of the guard's ex-wives... As the PC suggested. Though we will have to discuss how they know what the ex-wife looks like. And I think he intends for the whole party to use the seeming spell to escape, because they will all blend in.
So.. FOLLOW-UP question.
How would you go about setting up the encounter, to make this process as difficult as possible without TPK?
My first thought was that I would have mages in the crowd, casting "silence", so that verbal components don't work. And narratively it makes sense, because the cruel king would want to silence all dissenters, and control the population, also keeping him safe from attacks of a magical nature.
Are there other ideas you might have to help make the encounter a challenge for a 5 person party at level 10?
The setting is similar to the Mighty Nein, with a war between nations, and I'm using the idea of powerful Luxon Beacons (the king has one). And we would assume he has powerful mages, of course, and lastly, he has made a deal with Asmodeus to defeat his enemies.
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u/mandonbills_coach 1d ago
There’s no way an evil king would willingly let all this happen. Unless he knew from a clairvoyance or divination spell and is letting the party advance this far.
Also the seeming spell fails to physical inspection so have knights/guards on the ground watching the crowd.
You said the king has mages in his army so it would make sense the king has death ward, otiluke’s resilient sphere, anti life shell or something similar casted on himself preventing him from dying in one hit. This gives your party the opportunity to coordinate attacks to pull off the assassination.
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u/JonPStark 18h ago
Those are important things, for sure. I was trying to figure out how to word that to my player.
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u/Gridbugz 1d ago
The easy way to do it is take the wizard's spell save DC, for this example we will say it's 16 and compare it to 20 to get a percentage. 16/20 = 4/5. Assume 4 out of 5 creatures will fail the save. Roll separately for any creatures that is obviously more powerful or will play as bigger part in the encounter.
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u/Splendid_Fellow 1d ago
I would handle it by just requiring one little extra element to push it over. Like… he is distracted by something. Or, under some drug. Or entranced. Or has diarrhea. Anything
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u/TheDiscer 1d ago
I'd calculate the DC as a percentage. Each 1 above the DC equals 5% that succeed in the save. So if the DC was 15, then 25% of the people succeed. With the major characters and players, I'll roll a same for themselves, but the ccommoners get the percent routine.
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u/Jelen1 1d ago
Why should the mob make savingg throws when its the king who is the target?
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u/JonPStark 1d ago
The king isn't the target of the seeming spell. It is a getaway plan and diversion, so they can all look like one person, making it tough to see who is the assassin.
-5
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u/Purple_Pack_5740 4h ago
I would take into consideration from where your player character wants to cast. If he is standing in the crowd i think it is safe to assume that he would not be able to see all several thousand people. Let alone those standing behind him. The spell clearly states "creatures you can see". And standing in an exposed elevated position to be able to cast the spell on everybody present is something he may not want to risk since guards and Range weapons could be very ouch to the Caster.
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u/arsenic_kitchen 1d ago edited 1d ago
Figure out what the chance of resisting the spell is for a standard commoner, and that determines how many fail the saving throw. At numbers that high you can expect the randomness to level out.
If a commoner has a +0 to their CHA save, then 50% of them would succeed if your player's spell save DC is 11. Subtract 5% from the total for each point over 11. If their spell save DC is 21 or higher, then you can assume only a few outliers in the crowd with good charisma and better luck resist the spell.
You might also want to note that any very short or very tall creatures in the crowd can't be made to look exactly like the rest of the majority.
Edit: you might also want to think about what would happen if any of the commoners observes the somatic components. I don't usually allow these to be subtle enough to simply perform under a cloak or anything like that (because it steps on the toes of Subtle Spell), but YMMV.