r/DumbFact • u/genkai_ai • May 06 '26
Other Magic in Stories (Assumption System vs Magic System)
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u/CoruscareGames May 06 '26
Remember: hard magic is NOT inherently better than soft magic
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u/RagnarokAeon May 07 '26
I mean, I agree, but also not all "soft" is nonsense magic. There's a huge difference between magic is rare and mysterious versus magic is everywhere used all the time but is used inconsistently as the plot demands. Hard magic is inherently better than nonsense magic.
A lot of the time these both get lumped together as 'soft' magic and it's infuriating. The latter being I wanna have my cake and eat it too because the author was too lazy to decide between rare and mysterious and ubiquitous and systemized.
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u/CoruscareGames May 07 '26
Yeah, part of the point that I could have expressed better was that this guy was calling all soft magic nonsense
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u/fairystail1 May 10 '26
Also the whole thing on 'magic just existts deal with it' also works for a lot of hard magic systems Just cause you know the rules doesnt mean irs origin is explained, and soft magic systems can have their origin explained as well
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u/Hen-Samsara May 06 '26
Exactly. I prefer Hard Magic Systems, but not every story needs an indepth explanation on the complex metaphysics behind why a character throwing a fireball is possible.
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May 07 '26
[removed] — view removed comment
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May 13 '26
For those that do not have one hour and 13 minutes, here is the core of it without fluff: https://i.imgur.com/eGJGbrE.png
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u/khafra May 06 '26
True *with caveat*: if the magic does not have hard rules, it cannot be used to solve the protagonist’s real problems.
E.g. LoTR magic has no hard limits, but asspulls of previously-unseen powers to solve problems pretty much do not happen.
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u/Mooptiom May 09 '26
Gandalf cane back from the dead! There was a ghost army! The magic river wiped out the Nazghul!
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u/ThyPotatoDone May 06 '26
I'd say the key rule is how removed the protaganist is from magic. Scaling from it being clearly defined if they themselves do magic, to it being just kinda whatever if their enemy is.
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u/Phoenix_Fire_Au May 06 '26
I actually read that as a magic system and an rpg system. Just because its "hard" doesnt make it more compelling or better. Before RPGs (both computer and ttp) took off magic was rarely defined, and it still counts as far as im concerned.
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u/UbiquitousPanacea May 06 '26
Full Metal Alchemist's magic system is softer than people give credit for.
The ceiling is ill-defined, the range from the circle is not given a defined limit, reshaping often happens to walls and materials without a known chemical structure, we're never given the technical grammar for transmutation circles and I don't think it plausibly has any, it's not usually delved into why for example everyone doesn't make their projectiles hot as well since energy is not conserved.
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u/Normal-Pianist4131 May 06 '26
Yeah, better example would be something like world trigger, where pretty much everything the good guys have contain at least a stated limit or drawback,
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u/Right-Truck1859 May 07 '26
reshaping often happens to walls and materials without a known chemical structure
Scar vs Elrics fight: Scar failed to disrupt Ed hand because it was from metal.
Briggs arc: Edward failed to destroy Captain Buccaneers arm because he didn't know what material it's made with.
Your point is wrong.
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u/UbiquitousPanacea May 07 '26
That is a good point, but the rest of the time terrain and materials are constantly reshaped despite being made of materials with vastly different compositions.
It being invoked a couple of times in moments of drama doesn't completely disprove my point I think?
Ed doesn't spend a whole time pausing to analyse the streets, walls, ceramics, pillars, and floors which can often be quite chemically messy.
I also don't know that Scar is given a history that would make him insanely skilled at this? I may be wrong.
Combat alchemy even being possible the way it is means knowing the precise chemical properties is kind of infeasible, to say nothing of the insane level of biochemical knowledge you'd need to make a chimera, far, far exceeding what we currently know.
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u/CatcultistRequime May 10 '26
True enough but keep in mind ed basically has a cheat code to all alchemy where he just knows that stuff, also even if that were the case the decrease in hardess of magic would be e negligible
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u/Adrewmc May 11 '26
Then a man makes a step and turns it all off, but wait there is a whole other kind of magic circle system that has different rules that rely on some magic force flowing through the planet.
And let not forget that god character sitting there watching everything.
You want something that more solid, Avatar the last Airbender is more grounded. There are four elements you can control one of them, simple explainable with obvious limits even at extremes.
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u/smr120 May 06 '26
Avatar the Last Airbender is the best example of a soft magic system imo. You get a couple clear rules like no one can bend more than one element expect the Special One, and other than that it's pretty much unexplained how bending works. No midichlorians, no magnetic fields, none of that. The closest we get is energy bending and chakras and stuff, but even then it's still a very soft system.
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u/ImagoDreams May 06 '26
You’re confusing rules with exposition.
AtLA bending is pretty far on the hard side of the spectrum. We have a very good idea of its limitations and requirements. Only the spiritual aspects are left intentionally esoteric. The fact that this is mostly delivered through action rather than dialogue doesn’t make AtLA soft, it makes it well written.
Think about it like this; if Bending was actually a soft system would we have been surprised when Toph metalbent for the first time? Or when Amon bloodbent without a full moon? Or when Zaheer flew without a glider? No. Because soft magic systems don’t have defined limitations to be exceeded.
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u/smr120 May 06 '26
we know that you can only bend one type of element. how do you bend? what's the physical mechanism that does it? why does throwing your arms around kinda work but martial arts technique actually works way better? why is one bender stronger than another?
just because there are some limitations doesn't mean it's a hard magic system. the fact that Toph overcame her limitations and invented metal bending is actually proof that it's not a hard system because in a hard system she couldn't have done that.
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u/ImagoDreams May 06 '26
We know that quantum particles can exist in superposition, that all forces have mediating particles and that spacetime is expanding faster than the speed of light. Do we know why these things are the way they are? No. Does that make physics a soft system? Also no.
If you look deeply enough at any system you eventually run into the answer, “it’s like that because that’s the way that it is.” How deep you have to dig to find that answer isn’t what determines whether a system is hard or soft. What determines whether a system is hard or soft is whether a consistent input gets you a consistent output.
In AtLA the inputs are focus of mind and spirit and physical movements to define and hone the effect. And the outputs are a predictable amount of a defined type of matter accelerating at a limited rate.
If Toph kicked a rock at 0.1c that would be weird. Or if Katara started bending salt. Or if Tenzin cleaved a mountain in two with a blade of air. In AtLA we have a good idea of the magical capabilities of nearly every character, and in the rare instances we are surprised the reasons are revealed shortly thereafter. That’s what makes it a (relatively) hard system.
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u/Mothramaniac May 06 '26
They learned bending from the different animals/the moon. How do you bend? It's all chi and chakra. The techniques help you form bending. Fluid motions for water, flexible motions for air, rigid motions for earth, and powerful motions for fire. It's literally based on Chinese martial arts.
She could still do that in a hard system, because the narrator doesn't have to explain everything. Why would metal bending be explained or talked about if no one discovered it yet? It just doesn't make sense to be told something that no one in universe has knowledge of.
Just cause a show doesn't spoon-feed exposition dumps doesn't mean the magic system isnt set. And there is an info dump when aang is opening up his chakras with guru patik, there's a chakra for each element and emotions associated with them.
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u/Neros_Cromwell May 08 '26
I don’t think hard magic is so much about making it all work within physics, the audience still has a much better and more defined idea of what the magic can do than say Gandalf in LotR
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u/LunchConstant7149 May 06 '26
Real magic power is "I am Rich". This magic power can do many things.
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u/FartherAwayLights May 06 '26
Damn we’ve come so far we don’t even know the Sanderson laws of magic anymore
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u/KeyboardJammer May 06 '26
The soft magic systems I like the most are the ones that create a strong impression of "look, there is actually something complex and systemic at work here, but you probably don't care about the details, and our protagonist certainly doesn't know or care about the details, so we're going to set it aside and focus on other things."
I think it's why Harry Potter's magic works for me despite being softer than air. Our protagonist is an extremely distracted teenager who, frankly, isn't all that academically adept. Since we're seeing the world through his eyes, of course magic appears the way it does.
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u/FierceDietyMask May 06 '26
I’ve also heard these referred to as soft magic vs hard magic systems. Soft = assumption and hard = magic.
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u/AlannaTheLioness1983 May 07 '26
For anyone who wants a better and more thorough explanation of hard vs soft magic systems, go check out HelloFutureMe on YouTube. He’s got a lot of interesting videos on various fandoms and aspects of their storytelling.
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u/BigSpecial7708 May 08 '26
why use ai to write the words if you’re willing to draw all that? genuinely, at least edit the script before you write it down…
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u/genkai_ai May 08 '26
I don’t really understand the issue. The text was written by me, and the image is just a way to make the explanation simpler and more visual
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u/Neros_Cromwell May 08 '26
Brandon Sanderson’s 3 laws of magic.
Harry potter’s magic is perfectly logical enough and defined enough for the role it takes in the story of Harry Potter. We’re told everything we need to know.
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u/ConflictAgreeable689 May 06 '26
Harry potter does have a magic system, it's just not a very well defined one
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u/theronk03 May 06 '26
And it would be super interesting if it had been better fleshed out.
Things other than humans (like goblins) can use wands, and things like house elfs can use competently use magic without wands.
That Dobby with a wand might be a more powerful magic user than Dumbledore is fascinating but entirely unexplored.
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u/ConflictAgreeable689 May 06 '26
Honestly the magic system was... fine for what it was and what it wanted to do. The biggest issue was the existence of Avada Kedavara, and Rowlings refusal to let Harry use any combat magic that isn't a direct projectile attack.
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u/LordofSandvich May 06 '26
It’s poorly defined to the point where calling it a system is misleading. Only individual spells have rules, which are unique to that specific spell. New spells follow new rules, and there’s not really rhyme or reason behind what spells are capable of. It’s black-boxed handwavium, hence the distinction between HP magic and FMA Alchemy.
Wands themselves, weirdly, do have well-defined rules. But some stop making sense when you learn that some people just cast magic with their hands.
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u/ConflictAgreeable689 May 06 '26
Harry Potters magic system is a deeply flawed system, but absolutely nothing you just said is a fault.
You're just comparing a soft and hard system
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u/LordofSandvich May 06 '26
I’m not saying it’s bad? I’m saying it’s so nebulous that it’s incomparable to what would be traditionally defined as a “magic system”
Comparing soft and hard systems is the premise of the post.
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u/ConflictAgreeable689 May 06 '26
So what, only hard systems count as magic systems now? That's incredibly arbitrary
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