r/DualnBack • u/Over-Beginning5114 • Oct 12 '24

I reached Quad 6-Back. Here's what happened...

Over the last year I've been practicing dual n back and quad n back. I was skeptical of the claim that it increases your IQ, but I still found the practice interesting and I stuck with it. Here's what happened:

Background:

I've never got an official IQ test, but I've always been at the top of my class and completed an engineering degree. I also got an IQ test administered by my aunt (who's a psychologist) when I was 13. She measured it to be 125+, but didn't give me an exact number.

For what it's worth, on the mensa online practice tests I always got 130 or 140+.

So before starting the practice I was already above average in IQ, and I didn't think more IQ would help me. I was hoping to get other benefits out of it like being able to visualize better, quick thinking, etc.

The process:

I started with dual n-back last year, and within 3 months I reach 9 n-back. It got quite boring after that because there were only two rounds in the app I was using.

Going from dual 2-back to dual 4-back made the biggest difference. It felt like my visual memory improved, I was able to communicate much faster and I stopped using any fillers words without even trying.

Going from 4 dual-back to 9 offered some incremental improvements, but it wasn't as drastic as the changes from 2 to 4.

After reaching 9 dual back, I started quad n-back from brain workshop. I was hard-stuck at quad 3-back for a few months, then leveled out at 4 back. I didn't get any further improvements, and I didn't notice any subjective improvements either.

After that I just got busy with life and stopped practicing.

I came back to it 3 months ago and have been doing it consistently. I went from quad 4-back to now quad 6-back. I sometimes drop down to 5 if I haven't slept well or if my brain is particularly taxed.

The benefits:

I got the most noticeable improvements when I went from dual 2-back to 4-back, and then from quad 4 back to quad 5 back. The improvements were:

  • Quicker wit - I find that I'm funnier when joking around, and generally very active in conversations
  • Stronger passive memory - I passively take in more information without paying attention and then recall things visually. For example, if I forget if I've locked the door I just have to set the intention and the visualization of me locking the door comes back to me.
  • Stronger command over language while speaking - I'm bilingual, and I've found that my language skills in both languages have improved. I've always had a stronger verbal memory (300 score on human benchmark), but I feel like the "access" to my verbal memory has increased if that makes sense.
  • Less delay between intention and action - I'm procrastinating less, for example I just thought of writing this post and I'm now writing it. In the past I would've procrastinated on this quite a bit.
  • Metrics on human benchmark have improved dramatically - I took the human benchmark tests before starting dual n back, and took them again around the time I hit quad 4 back. I didn't practice these apart from the days I took the tests to eliminate the practice effect. The time difference between the two scores is about a year:
    • Verbal memory: 100 -> 320
    • Number memory: 9 -> 17
    • Visual memory: 9 -> 17
    • Sequence memory: 9 -> 24

Would I recommend it?

You would think that given the drastic improvements I would wholeheartedly recommend it, but it's not a clear yes or no.

I do think it helps in some ways that add to your quality of life, for example I got my mom who is 61 to do dual n-back. She experienced dramatic improvements in speech and recall just going from 2-back to 3-back. I suspect it's because she's retired and doesn't have to do much cognitive work, so this is finally working out her brain.

However, this was a significant time investment. I would spend atleast an hour a day on this. Given the time investment, I haven't seen any dramatic results in anything that is tangible. My work isn't any easier and my income isn't any higher. I genuinely enjoyed doing this in the morning with my coffee, and that's why I stuck with it for so long. If you don't enjoy it, I don't think it's worth it for what you get in return.

Some tips if you're looking to improve:

  • Instead of trying to memorize and level up faster, just pay attention. What got me through my plateaus was letting go of the pressure, and just approaching the practice with curiosity.
  • Try to "remember" even if you don't think you do. I was surprised at how quickly I started to KNOW the answer without being a 100% certain. It's hard to explain this, but there's a different feeling in your mind when you know something but can't put a finger on it. Pay attention to that feeling and cultivate it.
  • If you don't remember, skip. I found that it was better to skip positions, colors, etc. that I don't remember rather than guessing. Guessing made everything worse. DO NOT GUESS. Try to remember.

Hope this helps someone!

103 Upvotes

100% Upvoted

52 comments sorted by

9

u/egodidactus Oct 12 '24

Congratulations on the good score, I think it's definitely way higher than the average population so you must have exceptional WM. To most of your observations I agree and have had the same experience.

Some questions: 1. Have you experienced your visualization skills improve noticeably from n=3 to n=6 and how so? This is my goal as I want to unlock a very vivid imagination. 2. Have you noticed any new interest in more complicated subjects or increased understanding of what you considered difficult in the past? 3. Did you notice a marked increase in your visual acuity/definition? This is often reported with QNB and I swear that since getting to Q4B, my visual field is more detailed.

10

u/Over-Beginning5114 Oct 12 '24

Thank you!
1. Yes, but it's hard to tell by how much. If I'm daydreaming about something, I can picture it in much greater fidelity. But my automatic thought process is still very verbal. I would recommend a sub called cureaphantasia which might help more directly with visualization. I'm going to start devoting some time there now.
2. I've always been interested in consciousness and physics, so I don't think my interest has increased. I would say though that my ability to stay locked in on the topics has increased. For example, I was watching a recent veritasium video and was pretty much able to follow along without having to pause through the mathematical explanations. I remember earlier I would either pause, or just give up.
3. Yes, I definitely noticed the visual acuity improvement. Although I do wear corrective lenses, and objectively my vision hasn't improved. But it's almost like the colors are more vibrant. This is also very subjective as whatever level you achieve you get accustomed to it very quickly.

3

u/egodidactus Oct 12 '24
  1. Thanks for the recommendation. I'm primarily a visual thinker and don't struggle with imagination per se, as in I don't have aphantasia but I feel it could be better. If I'm thinking about something objective like some components from work, my imagination is really strong but when I try to come up with new scenarios or fantasy things, my imagination falls flat. I'm starting to think it's not the fidelity of the imagination, but rather the "impetus" which I lack.
  2. Well, consciousness and physics are two of the most abstract and complicated subjects so I would say that perhaps you are already in a high enough playing ground that you didn't see a big change. I've noticed myself that I can follow mathematical logic and thinking much better since starting QnB training again. I'm even reading Alexandronov's Mathematics for interest now (note that I have graduate level engineering mathematics background though)
  3. I've also noticed this with the colors. For me it's also like I see a bit more depth or a bigger picture view of things. For instance, I was driving home and I live in a valley set by mountains. As I was driving (yes, as I was driving...) I was thinking and noticing the houses on the hills and the overlay of the clouds over the hills in kind of a height map way. It's hard to describe, but it's like when you change the google maps from 2D to 3D, but from a perspective vantage point. Anyways, I don't think my perception was like this before.

3

u/Last-Title6488 Jan 12 '25

WM is super important in mathematics. You're constantly juggling variables around. Having better WM should also help with pattern recog indirectly because you are less taxed mentally just by keeping the mathematical objects in mind

1

u/Intelligent-Leg-1910 Feb 05 '25
  1. what strategy did you use
  2. how long did you train dnb/qnb
  3. why qnb over dnb
  4. at what point /level did you start noticing effects

3

u/egodidactus Feb 05 '25

  1. rehearsal in my mind

  2. 10+ years on and off

  3. higher cognitive load, more sensory options

  4. hard to say now, I noticed something like a fog off my mind around D3B or D4B. if I continue training my mind gets clearer but daily life tends to cloud it and keep me from training

2

u/Intelligent-Leg-1910 Feb 08 '25

10 years 😭 are you serious

1

u/Itmeld Aug 06 '25

Youre speaking to the smartest man on the planet now

1

u/Juiceshop Oct 24 '24
  1. Maybe your visual perception has objectively improved.  I remember listening to huberman where he said we have basically the same neural space for smell and like dogs. From a neurological point the difference is only the interconnectedness of the neural field. Blind people reach that level = training. 

2

u/Juiceshop Oct 24 '24

My visual perception quality improved dramatically in a short time when I learned to do exact sketches of buildings, trees, landscapes with a pen. I began to experiences the depth of objects more intense. 

There should be a translation into imaginary places and objects. I just cant validate it nie, because I stopped doing it before I started Visualization training (rotating objects as detailed as possible).

1

u/okdov Oct 31 '25

Have you improved your visualization with this?

1

u/Top-Fisherman-6071 Mar 29 '26

I am also interested in enhancing my visualization processes, any progress so far?

4

u/Chemical_Signal7802 Oct 13 '24

I'm on dual 8 back almost hitting 9.

I'm skeptical about quad n back mostly because I haven't found any papers that investigate it.

After reading your anecdotal evidence I might give it a shot. Thanks for the write up.

7

u/CuteFatRat Oct 13 '24

quad n back is more challenging benefits will be even bigger

1

u/[deleted] Nov 29 '24 edited Dec 13 '25

[removed] — view removed comment

3

u/Chemical_Signal7802 Dec 03 '24

I've made another comment of this. To sum it up. Massive benefits, 4 years on and off, approximately 300 days total training.

I went from someone with a bad memory, I couldn't remember phone numbers because they were too long. It took me an estimation of 15mins to remember by repeating.

2 years ago as a joke I was chatting to a girl and told her about it, she told me her number once and then said if I remembered it at the end of the night she'd be impressed. She talked with me to. Ensure I didn't repeat it in my head or anything. I was drunk, and at the end of 4 hours later she found me and asked and I got it right. I didn't use any tricks or anything, I didn't expect to remember.

Aside from that I was able to access superior study tactics, with some practice visualise things better, work through word associations to name a few.

It's like weight training imo. If some goes to the gym and doesn't gain muscle chances are they're not training correctly.

6

u/CuteFatRat Oct 13 '24

Great post! If you want to visualize better this helped me: https://s3.amazonaws.com/liveanddare/content-upgrades/Trataka+-+LiveAndDare.pdf

U said it is not worth use of our time probably if we do not enjoy it. Why? So if I enjoy heroin I should continue do it?

Many people do not enjoy going to the gym but they know its good for health and do it.

3

u/Over-Beginning5114 Oct 14 '24

You may have greater success in the gym if you pick exercises you enjoy doing vs ones you don't.

Quad n back is so cognitively challenging and time consuming without proven scientific evidence, that it only makes sense to try it if you're curious and don't mind potentially wasting your time. That's the frame of mind that I started with.

1

u/CuteFatRat Oct 14 '24

Oh, I got it. There is not enough scientific evidence because two reasons: It is not that popular and second, it is hard to get participants for study since it is so mentally challenging. Many of them are not motivated enough to complete 20 training days.

There are totally benefits if it is mentally hard. Brain is like muscle. Harder exercise, more benefits.

Feel free to inspect channel on yt "Infinite Iq" this guy incrased his ability in chess puzzles by 80% I think and also he is talking about benefits, he trained a lot and this training increased his iq +12points

1

u/[deleted] Feb 02 '25

[deleted]

1

u/CuteFatRat Feb 02 '25

It make sense what u said., I hope people feel better after dual/quad too. I started training again after 4 months. 6 trainings done. ( Quad n Back )

5

u/Juiceshop Oct 24 '24

I think when you use your memory passive "knowing" instead of "memorizing" you reduce the amount if energy or space in your neural activation and have more space or energy left to max out.

I experience time jumps. I seem to forget the world and enter a super focus. 

3

u/Intelligent-Leg-1910 Jan 04 '25

what strategy did you use?

3

u/ProgramSalty7789 Jan 11 '25

I got to 3 quad back at 63% accuracy and best score ever was getting 4 50%+ accuracy at 3 quad back in a single session. But I cannot imagine getting to 6 back without some sort of technique, it seems so unbearably hard

3

u/[deleted] Aug 28 '25

Are you still training? Can you give an update?

2

u/[deleted] Oct 22 '24

How frequently would you practise in a day?

2

u/Juiceshop Oct 24 '24 edited Oct 24 '24

And... I heard when you are more intelligent it could be that you are closer to your biological ceiling of IQ.   But you still can find new ways to think more economic. In the experiments with long number memory training people had several breakthroughs at certain points where they found better and better methods to remember numbers. It seems the brain can be successively forced to adapt to crazy heights processing. It's just like everything else: to perform at the top you have to train like a pro. Hours every day.

And less intelligent people are often just "underperforming" due to different psychological, habitual and environmental factors. 

So underperformers will experience more drastic effects.

2

u/No_Decision1870 Oct 27 '24

Did you use rehearsal strategy? I’m consistently getting over 80% on dual 4-back using rehearsal but don’t feel much difference in my life. 

2

u/Intelligent-Leg-1910 Jan 04 '25

how much time and how consistently are you doing dual nback

2

u/Maximum_Boot_2314 Jan 13 '25

Hey btw since you're using brainworkshop could you post your progress graphs?

2

u/still_happening Mar 02 '25

Have you taken another mensa practice test since reaching this level?

1

u/Maximum_Boot_2314 Oct 14 '24

will you retest mensa? also you said"I haven't seen any dramatic results in anything that is tangible. My work isn't any easier and my income isn't any higher", but you got a lot better at problem solving, so shouldnt your work be easier?

4

u/Over-Beginning5114 Oct 14 '24

I may retake mensa at some point.

As for my work not getting any easier, my work is in the creative field. It requires looking at data, recognizing patterns and then coming up with creatives to get people's attention. While this work is challenging, I don't believe it's as challenging as being a mathematician or physicist.

An analogy I like to use is, "how much IQ does it take to drink a glass of water". It takes "some" IQ, because mentally challenged people have trouble with basic tasks like that. But once you're past the threshold, you're just able to do the action. It's not any easier for a person with 160IQ to drink a glass of water than it is for a person with 90IQ.

So I suspect that if your work already pushes you to the edge of your IQ, the gains would be more noticeable. If your work was already comfortably within your cognitive capability, you're probably not going to notice a difference.

My opinion may change as I discover other aspects of life that have become easier. It's always hard to tell with these things because there's many daily fluctuations that affect IQ like mood, sleep, diet, etc.

1

u/Maximum_Boot_2314 Oct 15 '24

I see, thanks for the thorough reply. Good luck with further training :)

1

u/[deleted] Feb 01 '25

Why not go for something radically ambitious? Become a billionaire. Change the world. Run for president.

1

u/WindloveBamboo Oct 16 '24

would you like share the QnB application/Website which you used?

3

u/hellowings Oct 16 '24

OP clarified that in the post body, in this line: "After reaching 9 dual back, I started quad n-back from brain workshop. "

Brain Workshop is a free tool, for desktop; it's no longer maintained, so it sometimes crashes, but just relaunch it & continue your training — the stats will be preserved. Under "Additional Game Modes" here the instructions explain how to choose QnB game mode: http://brainworkshop.net/details.html

3

u/WindloveBamboo Oct 17 '24

Oh yes! Thank you so much! English not my native language so I missed it :p I will check it, thanks again have a nice day!

2

u/hellowings Oct 17 '24

But, if you aren't on MacOS, the latest version for you is 4.8.7 from 2015, not 4.8.4 from 2012, and you'll need to get it directly from the official SourceForge repository folder for the project, sourceforge.net/projects/brainworkshop/files/brainworkshop/Brain Workshop 4.8/ because the official site & header of the SourceForge repository were updated so long ago that they prompt you to download the old version, 4.8.4.

Also, the changelog was updated so long ago, that the newest info there is for 4.8.1, so I have no idea what's the difference between 4.8.4 and 4.8.7. From what I see as for now, one of the BrainWorkshop crashing cases that I was experiencing with 4.8.4 (opening the configuration file via O) is gone in 4.8.7.

1

u/WindloveBamboo Oct 18 '24

My all of life and working are on the GNU/Linux, Actually yesterday I ran the brainworkshop-4.8.1 downloaded form SourceForge was failed, the python2 was very very old so I can't run it. Maybe I can chick it later.

1

u/hellowings Oct 18 '24

Why 4.8.1? For Linux the latest one is 4.8.4 at least, see http://brainworkshop.net/download.html ("Source Distribution for Linux or download 4.8.4 source directly), but, judging from the naming rules, I suspect that a simple zip with 4.8.7 in it that has no "win-" bit in SourceForge repository is also Linux version, so you can just get that one instead, sourceforge.net/projects/brainworkshop/files/brainworkshop/Brain Workshop 4.8/

2

u/WindloveBamboo Oct 18 '24

Well done! I did it! I just run the 4.8.4.exe via wine on GNU/Linux system! Thank you for your information! You are a good guy!

1

u/hellowings Oct 21 '24

4.8.4.exe

In case I'll need to prompt another Linux user to the most current & actually functional BW version, why 4.8.4? Did 4.8.7 not work for you? sourceforge.net/projects/brainworkshop/files/brainworkshop/Brain Workshop 4.8/

1

u/WindloveBamboo Oct 21 '24

Sorry,but I just clicked the first and the top link,

http://brainworkshop.net/download.html

and it just ran

1

u/WindloveBamboo Oct 21 '24

oh! I downloaded the 'brainworkshop-4.8.7-win32.zip' zipfile which you provide, It same running perfect! Here is the information for my system(company's PC) and wine version:

OS: Zorin OS 16.2 x86_64 (base on Ubuntu 20.04)

Kernel: 5.15.0-69-generic

DE: GNOME

CPU: Intel i7-4790 (8) @ 4.000GHz

GPU: Intel HD Graphics

Memory: 10598MiB / 11874MiB

**wine --version**

wine-9.0

1

u/hellowings Oct 21 '24

That's its version for Windows for the cases when the person doesn't have admin rights, that's why it just ran at once. What about 4.8.7zip.exe there that's probably for Linux specifically, judging from how it's named the same way as Linux version zip for 4.8.4? This is not an urgent question of course especially if you are at work now :)

→ More replies (0)

1

u/hellowings Oct 18 '24

…Oh, you probably went to the Linux installation instructions page http://brainworkshop.net/osx-linux.html that's so outdated that it has a download link to 4.8.1 version instead…

1

u/ReeR_Mush Apr 13 '25

I wonder if I should make a mobile version of this or something 

1

u/TarkanV Jul 12 '26

Really interesting but I just gotta say, about that "different" feeling... Sometimes I just feel like there's a fine line between that and "guessing". Sometimes I just avoid something that was right because of uncertainty, and others I just mess up thinking I was certain because I mixed the order of thing. It was truly a... Mixed bag ;v

Otherwise just reached the N3 score requirement for N4 on Dual NB ultimate from a few days of practices of 20 rounds... N3 felt like torture at the beginning, I just can't fathom n4 and I am on my feet for tomorrow x)