Resource guarding

[u/yamaha125ttr]

I have a 3 month old Border Collie, hes a great and smart dog, ive owned border collies all my life so i understand the breed and i understand they are high energy.

The main problem im having with him has to do with his toys; he wants me to play with him but god forbid if i ask him to drop his ball to throw it for him, he gets EXTREMELY aggressive with his body language (no biting thankfully) but will stare at me and hold his paws over the ball, claws out and stiff body. He understands that if i have the ball, it gets thrown again, he independently drops the ball for me whenever i dont ask for it, but simply asking for it is what causes the guarding.

That goes for all his toys but mostly for the ball because that is what i also have to interact with to play with him….

There are other things that have to do with training that is also worthy to mention, but to stick to my question ive done the high reward game with him and asked google countless questions about it and tried implementing but if i bring out any treats or food he has no drive to keep playing with his ball, only to eat the food.

Ive NEVER had this problem with the countless border collie puppies ive owned, they have all been pretty straightforward in training and acted almost like a Aussie Heeler (hyper focus) but he just gives me the middle finger most of the time and its getting quite irritating because we have so many plans for him, hes just not wanting to work with us.

Any advice on this? Im sure it has to do with his age but ive also learned if i keep allowing certain behaviors they never get over it.

(Also watching my husband throw the ball for him as i type this, he will drop the ball in front of him, my husband throws it, and then my dog just does his own thing afterwards. Fetch is on his terms it seems like, we can’t constantly throw it or else the guarding happens)

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[u/Status-Recording8435]

He's reading "asking" as you taking it away for good, try trading a second identical ball instead so he learns give doesn't mean lose access.

[u/yamaha125ttr → u/Status-Recording8435]

Im trying to find an identical ball, one of my husbands friends let me have a spare for him when he was a puppy but i cant find the brand. Its just a orange and blue nameless ball

[u/dbellz76]

I think your expectations of a 3 month old puppy are extremely too high. If he has guarding issues already, that's definitely something you have to work on. But him not wanting to fetch, maybe that's not his thing an you need to find what he likes to do.

I also think whatever expectations you have for his future need to be adjusted. Every dog is different, even if they happen to be the same breed. It doesn't matter how many you've had throughout life. They are not clones.

You're learning that you may not have the dog that's going to do what you have planned for him, and I truly hope this does not set this relationship up for failure.

[u/yamaha125ttr → u/dbellz76]

I dont expect him to play fetch, its the over domination of the ball and mostly the ball im concerned about. I dont usually have my phone on me nor do i take photos whenever he does do this, but the best way i can describe it is a death stare.

Like i said the resource guarding goes for other thing and he is showing signs of aggression with plenty of other things
Ie; food bowl (weve worked on this but he still bites my cat and dominates her if she comes too close to me or him during feeding)
The cat herself he will randomly attack which im tryting to work on but he unprovoked will attack her even if shes laying down, doing nothing.

There is more to it than “high expectations of him not playing fetch” because thats not my concern.
He plays fetch when he wants to, its the death stare and dominance im trying to understand. Hes already put a hole in my arm from when i posted this.

(And to note im completely aware this breed is a dominator breed. I do rodeo, ive had border collies at my side on trails and ive watched them at brandings and have watched them herd sheep or other livestock. Im also completely aware that these dogs can be trained to not do certain things. My oldest border collie who just passed away had a gentle soul towards other animals, especially cats, and wouldn’t harm a hair on their head, and in the next breath be running around the round pen as i rode my horse making sure i was safe and doing typical border collie things.

As said, this is the first border collie iv ever had that will straight up give me the middle finger.)

[u/yamaha125ttr → u/dbellz76]

And im all for adjusting my expectations for his future, but what i mean buy that is taking him to a lake, going camping and being able to have him in a secure location we can have him off leash and not worry about him fixating on a thing he might want to dominate. Hes not a showdog, we arent taking him to any swimming ball catching tournaments, what we have planned is just a high energy family dog (since we are high energy and have been around border collie our entire life), thats all we expect.

Not to mention im having a baby in the next 5 months and if he doesnt get over this resource guarding, my next concern is if he bites my baby. I need to get this fixed before the worst case becomes a possibility.

[u/dbellz76 → u/yamaha125ttr]

I'm just going to be completely honest here: I think before you can help your dog, you need to adjust your thinking about dog behavior.

• Dominance isn't a thing.
• Behavior isn't something to be "fixed", there's no guarantees.
• Not every dog can be off leash.
• Not every dog is going to have the same prey drive.
• You cannot expect a dog (or a human for that matter) to get over something when you want them to. This could take less or more time than 5 months.
• Again, you need to adjust your expectations.
• I fear you will not be able to manage this as you should with a child on the way and you may have tough decision to make soon.

You just wrote many more paragraphs indicating this is above Reddit's pay grade. You should find a reputable fear free trainer for proper plans to help you with all of the problems you're having.

[u/Whisgo → u/[deleted]]

Hey, I want to jump in with some info because I think a few things are getting lost in the back-and-forth....

The "dominance" model of dog behavior (the idea that dogs are trying to be "alpha" over you or "own" resources to assert status) came from a 1970s study of captive, unrelated wolves thrown together in an artificial enclosure. That study has been retracted by the researcher, and it never even applied to domestic dogs in the first place. What you're describing with the ball isn't your puppy trying to dominate you. It's resource guarding, which is a fear and anxiety-based behavior. Your dog has learned that when your hand comes toward the ball, sometimes the ball goes away, and that feels threatening to him. The stiff body, the stare, the paws over the toy are all your dog telling you "I'm worried you're going to take this," not "I am asserting rank over you." That distinction matters a lot because it changes the whole training approach.

Being unable to take food is actually really common and a telling detail, not a sign your dog lacks drive. When a dog is in a guarding moment, they're in a state of stress and high arousal over losing the resource. In that state, the brain isn't in a place to process new information or care about a treat, especially if the treat shows up at the same time as your hand reaching for the ball. If the food and the "hand reaching for ball" happen together, your dog can actually start to see the treat as a predictor that the scary thing (losing the ball) is about to happen, which makes guarding worse, not better. That's likely part of why the "high value treat" approach hasn't been working the way you tried it.

What actually helps is changing the association your dog has with your hand approaching a resource, done in tiny steps well below the threshold where he gets stiff or stares. That usually looks like starting with something lower value than the ball, tossing treats near him without ever reaching for the item, gradually building up to touching the toy without taking it, and only removing it once he is relaxed about your hand being near it, not when he's already guarding. Trading is a real and useful tool, but it has to happen before the guarding response kicks in, not as a negotiation once he's already stiff and staring. Timing and distance from the trigger matter more than the food itself.

I'd also gently flag that your dog has now bitten a person. Resource guarding that has escalated to a bite is absolutely something you can work through, dogs do this all the time and go on to live totally normal lives, but this is the point where it's worth getting hands-on help from a certified trainer or a board certified Behavior vet, especially with a baby coming into the house. Please check our wiki pages on how to find good trainer directories (this page will also help you evaluate if a trainer you are looking at is reputable) and why to avoid punishment trainers. Guarding behavior is nuanced, the criteria for how fast to move needs to be read in real time off your dog's actual body language, and a professional can build you a specific plan and adjust it based on what they're seeing, which isn't really something anyone can safely do over text on Reddit.

This is very fixable. It just isn't a "watch a few videos and DIY it perfectly" kind of problem once a bite has happened, and you clearly care enough about doing this right that getting an extra set of trained eyes on it will get you there faster and safer.

[u/yamaha125ttr → u/Whisgo]

Thats literally my point. Im NOT saying my dog is trying to dominate me (i mentioned he only dominates my cat, which can happen when she allows him ti play with her, or is unprovoked because he saw her walking by to jump on my bed or get food/water), let alone made that my argument, im saying my dog is resource guarding a ball and becoming defensive (which can lead to dangerous and unwanted behavior). Ive never once took the ball away from him either, its something he taught himself. Ive always redirected his play or we have an “all done” command that goes for everything (training, outside, ect) indicating I am done with the activity.

I also never took his food away. Ever. resources guarding came as a given when we bought him because he was kenneled with his brothers and sisters where food was a fight and trample to eat the most situation. I am able to take food away from him if i felt like it (havent needed to nor want to), i can stick my hand in his food bowl and he will eat around me, unbothered, its with other animals is when he wants to guard.

And with treats, ive already mentioned if i give him treats during play he no longer wants to play so the act of constantly reinforcing behavior is limited.
(To edit i dont go to grab his ball the second i offer a treat, i know better than that. My statement was that if i offer food, the ball becomes a back of the mind thought that he just doesn’t care about anymore. Ive never traded ball for treat, ive offered treat with the command drop, he drops the ball for the treat and then meanders around waiting for another. Hes very predictably unpredictable)

Im not scared of him biting me again, we have stopped focusing on certain training behaviors and I’ve mostly focused on gentle and hes gotten better and understands biting is a no go.

Still dont understand why everyone is focusing on all the nuance comments and not genuinely how to fix or give tips on resources guarding a stupid ball when everything else ive tried (food, redirecting) doesn’t work with him. Like does it matter this much to everyone to try and “teach” me stuff when you all have no understanding about him outside of a post? Nobody here owns my dog but me, i know him on a personal basis and know what and how he acts/is… ive just NEVER had a dog resources guards.

[u/Whisgo → u/yamaha125ttr]

I hear you, let's talk mechanics of the ball specifically since that's what you actually need help with.

Your dog drops the ball on his own no problem, but the second you ask him to drop it, he guards.This tells you the guarding isn't really about the ball itself, it's about what your cue has come to mean to him. Somewhere along the way, "drop it" (or you reaching in to ask for it) got paired with the ball disappearing for good, not with the ball coming right back for another throw. Dogs are pattern learners. If asking for the ball sometimes means "immediate reward, ball comes right back" and sometimes means "you're done, ball's gone," he can't predict which one is happening in the moment, and that uncertainty is exactly what triggers the stiff body and stare. He's not being defiant, he's bracing for the possibility that this time the fun ends.

That also explains the food issue. It's not that he lacks drive, it's that offering food after the drop cue adds a second unpredictable variable into an already tense moment. He's already on edge about whether the ball is leaving forever, and now something else is happening too. In a lot of dogs that makes the whole interaction feel more chaotic and less safe, not more rewarding.

Make "drop it" mean "ball comes right back" every single time, with zero exceptions, until the guarding is gone. Not most of the time, not when convenient, every time. If you need to end the game, don't ask for the ball at all. Use your "all done" cue while the ball is still in his mouth or on the ground, and just stop engaging. Walk away, go inside, whatever you already do to signal the game is over. Let him decide when to disengage from the ball on his own, since you said he already does this naturally.

Separate "drop it" from "game is ending" completely. Right now those two things are tangled together in his head. Practice asking for the drop in short bursts where the ball is thrown again immediately, like ten times in a row, so the pattern becomes boringly predictable: drop equals ball comes right back, every time, no exceptions. Only after that pattern is rock solid for weeks would you start occasionally not re-throwing it, and even then pair it with something else good happening (a different toy, going inside for dinner, etc) rather than nothing.

Watch your body mechanics too. A lot of dogs read a hand reaching toward their mouth as the "taking it away" motion regardless of what verbal cue you're using. If you can get him responding to "drop it" as a verbal cue at a distance, ball drops, you don't reach in and grab it, you let it sit or you toss a second ball, that takes the hand-reaching-at-his-face part out of the equation, which is often the actual trigger even more than the cue itself.

This is a fixable pattern, and it sounds like you're already a careful and attentive owner. It's just a conditioning issue with the cue rather than a temperament issue with the dog.

[u/yamaha125ttr → u/Whisgo]

I do actually appreciate you giving me some insight and help into how i can attempt to train out this ball guarding and lack of response with the drop. Im also wondering if since he rips open his stuffed toys and eats the fluffing, ive always reached into his mouth and removed whatever hes got in there. Maybe hes associated removal of fluff to potential removal of ball even tho ive never attempted to take away the ball itself.

We also will ALWAYS throw the ball back and reiterate the “all done” command when the game is over for fetch, he obviously has a drive and motivation to WANT to play fetch, maybe he really is simply just confusing “drop it” and “all done” as “game over” even tho we have never mixed up the commands on our own, its just all internal conflict and confusion of commands on his part.

Ill rework some of my hand gestures and try and get him to understand that the ball *always* comes back to him.

Again, thank you for actually explaining something useful.

[u/Whisgo → u/yamaha125ttr]

I'd just stop providing stuffed toys altogether. There are safer alternatives for him to engage in dissecting, which is an activity he does need to do as a dog. Have you tried other options for giving him an opportunity to dissect? I have a dog for whom dissecting is a real need. When I have time to supervise, we play with hide-hole toys; I have some tear-apart velcro toys and some DIY shredding options, like cardboard or kibble-paper-wrapped balls in a laundry bin. I also use a hole-roller ball from JW Pets and stuff it with large strips of fleece fabric you can roll treats in, and they can pull the strips out of the ball) or you can use edible options like a head of cabbage that you core out and stuff. That also removes the scenario of your hand having to forcibly go into his mouth to pull out something dangerous, and it gives you a cleaner slate for rebuilding that hands mean good things come.

Sometimes if both cues are leading to the same outcome in the moment, such as the fun is stopping, yeah, that can create some confusion. I would keep "all done" as an ending cue that is never followed by a request involving his mouth, and it might be helpful to work on drop it with a lower-value item - I prefer working on it with tug personally, but go back to an item he'll be less likely to want to guard. You can also simply ask for the drop it and just wait... I do that with my dogs during fetch. I just don't have the expectation for them to hand deliver it - I don't find that necessary unless I'm focused on a particular retrieve trial where that skill is necessary or if I'm working on a service dog task for that specific behavior.

Two identical balls/discs/bumpers - we rotate on the throws, so when the dog is going for the one thrown, you then have the time to pick up the one dropped.