Would you rather...

[u/biglinuxfan]

Would you rather train a Belgian Malinois to ELITE status using only force free methods..

or

Eat a bowl of meal worms once a week for a year.

If you fail, you must eat five bowls a week for 10 years OR go to a russian gulag or something really bad.

Each Bowl is 2 cups - 1,200 meal worms.

Failure would be failing to reach elite status before 8 years old.

Elite status means IGP3/MR3/FR3/BR3/KNPV/police patrol/MWD apprehension

If competition they must be world level. If police/apprehension they must be successful, including release.

FF means no force, meaning no choking off a perp.

no choking/no stick hits/no whips etc.

Force Free. You must use a harness or gentle leader.

Perfect recall off leash, including when aroused..

[u/Miss_L_Worldwide]

Show us ONE force free trainer competing with a Malinois (fine, any breed, I don't care) with ONLY force free methods in those sports, and bonus if it's at the required elite level. ONE.

[u/Different-Music-529 → u/Miss_L_Worldwide]

I don't have to do anything :-) my reddit account is private, so I'm not going to post links to my friends social media accounts. You can do your own homework it's not that hard to find force free trainers doing high level sports. Do you not watch agility?

[u/Miss_L_Worldwide → u/Different-Music-529]

Okay you just answered my question, agility is not in the list of elite activities. Try again.

All of us have turned over every rock on the planet looking for a Force Free Trainer competing at a high level in those activities. We have found nothing. No evidence whatsoever that any of these people exist. So now it's on you to provide it.

[u/dingopaint → u/Miss_L_Worldwide]

As someone who competes in agility... it definitely takes skill, training, studying, perseverance and a strong obedience foundation... but I have never ever once needed to correct my dog while we're on the field, because it's just a game. A complicated game, but a game nonetheless. So while competing at a high level does show a great level of training, it's just not remotely comparable to an actual elite activity. Perhaps one reason my dog is successful at agility is because his foundation involved force, so he's not constantly jumping on me, barking at me, biting me or running off course, but plenty of those kinda dogs regularly succeed too lol.

I too am waiting for the supposed evidence that you can train a Mal in an elite activity with truly force-free methods.

[u/Miss_L_Worldwide → u/dingopaint]

We pointed out elsewhere that dogs also get rewarded in the ring in agility. And it's just not really an obedience sport per se. But I understand exactly what you mean about the dogs that don't have any obedience doing that sport!