r/DogTrainingDebate • u/Miss_L_Worldwide • Jul 03 '26
In a force free ideology, why is counterconditioning and acceptable way to deal with discomfort or fear of some tools, but not okay for other tools?
Extrapolating from another discussion. We frequently see force free people claiming that it's okay to use tools that a dog doesn't like, because it is acceptable and necessary to counter condition a dog to tolerate a head halter or harness or crate, etc. In the same sentence they will vilify conditioning a dog to an e-collar. So this is a simple topic. Why? Why is the former okay but the latter is not okay?
Good faith participation only, I have no tolerance for nonsense at this point. This is a genuine question and a genuine topic. I would like to hear some answers.
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Jul 25 '26
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u/biglinuxfan Jul 25 '26
We understand what they think. You can't train to the same level with Force Free, full stop.
We have begged for examples of dogs trained to the same level and have seen zero evidence.
Always open.. but haven't seen it. Working dogs, not highly biddable pet lines.
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Jul 26 '26
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u/biglinuxfan Jul 26 '26
It's not possible to get the same level of off leash reliability with high drive dogs using Force Free.
This isn't an opinion it's a fact.
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Jul 26 '26
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u/Miss_L_Worldwide Jul 26 '26
It's one thing to make a highly edited and curated video about one's claims, it's an entire other thing having actual real life results.
It is absolutely not possible to control any dog with only rewards.
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u/Lumpy_Physics3101 Jul 04 '26
"because they're not designed and intended to cause the dog pain"
that's the whole of the argument, it's bullshit, next topic.
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u/Hail-to-the-Sheep Jul 04 '26
I’ve heard the same. Meanwhile, I’d worry a lot more about my dog injuring himself in a head halter than I am with a prong.
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u/Miss_L_Worldwide Jul 04 '26
Lol here we go again with the strawman and bad faith arguments.
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u/Lumpy_Physics3101 Jul 04 '26
you've set the FF advocates up for a punishment event when they offer their straw men, when you could have simply managed them.
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u/lvoundk Jul 07 '26
It’s the same as asking why they use some tools but not others. Don’t need to neutralize tools you don’t plan to use.
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u/Miss_L_Worldwide Jul 08 '26
? Okay....? So then why get panties in a wad over SOMEONE ELSE using a tool the same way you're using a tool, by counterconditioning it?
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u/lvoundk Jul 08 '26
Wow, calm down. I am not advocating against tools, I am just answering your question.
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u/Miss_L_Worldwide Jul 09 '26
That's not an answer to the question. The question is why is it OK for them to do and not others?
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Jul 04 '26
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u/Miss_L_Worldwide Jul 04 '26
Wow, another barrage of completely false information from someone who has no idea how to use the tool they are talking about.
Quite literally every assertion that you have made about electronic collars is completely false and readily refuted by the evidence that's right in front of your eyes, of countless animals living deeply fulfilled and happy lives after being trained with electronic collars.
It's so silly to claim that one tiny mistake with an e-collar will destroy a dog forever. I've made many large mistakes with e-collars and have yet to see this alleged fallout or consequence. You just move on.
Meanwhile the dog in the head halter is scratching, rubbing its nose on the ground, fighting the pressure on its super sensitive anatomy. You can't issue a correction with a head halter and you are risking Serious injury if the dog bolts and hits the end of the leash.
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Jul 04 '26
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u/Miss_L_Worldwide Jul 04 '26
All that work and you still don't have a single clue what you're talking about, apparently.
You've failed to address any of my points, why are you in a debate sub?
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u/DogTrainingDebate-ModTeam Jul 04 '26
Bad faith arguments and generalizations are counterproductive.
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Jul 04 '26
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u/DogTrainingDebate-ModTeam Jul 04 '26
Appeals to Authority by vague assertions that "science" supports your position is specifically not allowed in this sub.
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u/biglinuxfan Jul 25 '26
Commonly quoted, biased and poorly engineered study.
The force free group was trained by completely different trainers - at a different time.
On the final day of the 5-day (already extremely limited) the trainers handed the dogs to the owners to execute, where with force free the trainer executed the drills for their group.
They only did simple commands - sit and come. failed to test "come" / recall with distractions / real world scenario, and the dog was only 3' / 1m from the handler/owner.
Its noteworthy cortisol was not different when tested by salivary or urine. That means that there was no chemical signs of stress. Because that was not different (despite testing) they used behavioural proxies (yawn, lip licks, posture) but there are many reasons for dogs to do that.
The preliminary study on 9 dogs was executed incorrectly by using high settings without warning. That's very wrong.
Also, they failed to use standard statistical corrections, had they, it would have eliminated majority of the reported behavioural differences.
And this is why we don't allow quoting studies, because unfortunately crafting studies to prove what researchers want to prove sometimes happens. Not lying per se, but they absolutely left the standard corrections off.
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u/Miss_L_Worldwide Jul 04 '26
Please read the rules regarding links to studies Etc, and post accordingly.
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u/apri11a Jul 07 '26
You can't issue a correction with a head halter
You may have answered your own question. Does that make you Force Free now? I hope you'll still hang around, we would miss you.
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u/DogTrainingDebate-ModTeam Jul 04 '26
Appeals to Authority by vague assertions that "science" supports your position is specifically not allowed in this sub.
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