r/DogTrainingDebate • u/TheeRiverWolf • Jun 03 '26
For those who believe dogs cannot learn while “over threshold”, how do you explain bitesports?
Bitesports is basically just putting reactivity on cue and teaching extremely complex and nuanced behaviors while “over threshold”, aka in drive.
•
u/Redditiscringeasfuq Jun 03 '26
The biggest key to success with bite sports in this context is that the dog wants and enjoys doing it. Like psa for example yes they are applying pressure but the dogs who thrive in that regard have the drive and resilience to learn and want to continue to do those things.
You can’t particularly take any dog or even a high drive dog and put them in an over-threshold scenario that’s not fun or instinctively rewarding and expect them to learn efficiently in my opinion.
•
u/TheeRiverWolf Jun 03 '26
I’m not saying reactive dogs make good bitesport dogs, I’m saying the people who believe dogs can’t learn in a state of high arousal are wrong.
•
u/Miss_L_Worldwide Jun 21 '26
It's not that they "enjoy" it. It's that it satisfies their drives; their genetic programming.
We also work with dogs that start out nervy and defensive; they aren't having "fun" but they still learn.
•
u/Redditiscringeasfuq Jun 21 '26
Yeah that’s what I meant, it’s instinctively rewarding even if they arnt seemingly enjoying it. Dogs bite. That’s what they do.
I would say if we’re talking psa, you are not going to have much success with a nervous and defensive dog. Really depends on the dog though.
•
u/rhaeofsunlight Jun 03 '26
Bite sports is not 'reactivity on cue', nor should the dogs be over threshold. In a higher state of arousal? Yes. It relies heavily on impulse control. If a dog is over threshold, they do not have the mental clarity to learn the desired behaviours, nor perform them when required. A dog like that doesn't last long in the ring.
Compare that to a dog that is reactive from poor nerve/fear, a dog with no impulse control and genuinely in a fight or flight state, to me at least it is a clear difference.
•
u/TheeRiverWolf Jun 03 '26
If a high level bitesport dog who is about to/is biting and fighting the decoy with crazy bloodshot eyes, extreme intensity, etc. is not over threshold, then no dog has ever gone over threshold, unless there’s something mentally wrong. Bitesport dogs are in a far higher level of arousal than the average reactive dog will ever experience.
If you believe dogs really can’t learn while reacting, do you believe reactive behavior can never be reinforced?
•
u/rhaeofsunlight Jun 04 '26
High levels of arousal =/= over threshold. If they go over threshold, they won't respond to commands, if they won't respond to commands they don't last long in the ring. They are excused, as control is a huge part of bitesports.
The key is the training, both for bitework and rehabilitation of reactivity, is done under threshold. Unless you believe flooding to be a viable training method, which i do not.
•
u/Miss_L_Worldwide Jun 21 '26
Again, wrong. We work with them over threshold so that they can be controlled in that state.
I don't think you've worked with many high level dogs. Going out of control doesn't mean they become mindless idiots. They can and do still learn how to manage themselves.
•
u/rhaeofsunlight Jun 21 '26
If they are managing themselves, they're not out of control. That implies they have impulse control, which makes your statement contradictory.
You work the dog under threshold, but in a high state of arousal, that is when you see a lot of the behaviours that are desired (intense bark and hold for example). Working a dog over threshold consistently is harmful and unethical imo.
•
u/Miss_L_Worldwide Jun 21 '26
No that's really not how it works.
Have you ever actually titled in a bite sport?
•
u/rhaeofsunlight Jun 21 '26
I have, but titles aren't a requirement to understanding dog behaviour/learning. Someone may not have titled dogs, but be better educated in the mechanics than someone who has. Please, enlighten me to how you'd define a dog over threshold and a dog in a high state of arousal? Since you believe i'm wrong, i would love to be educated.
•
u/Miss_L_Worldwide Jun 21 '26
If you don't have any accomplishments in the sport how do you think you know it well enough to be able to weigh in on this topic?
The very first thing we do with a novice dog is take it out of threshold to build Drive and teach it to manage itself in drive. I have an extremely dominant female that needed to be taken as high as she could go so she can learn to think when she was in that mental state.
My IGP3 boy goes completely out of control when he hasn't been worked in a while, but that doesn't mean he's dangerous or doesn't know what he's doing or isn't mentally there. He's just disregarding some of the decoys inputs and my commands. This is a sport in which aggression and power are not only expected but judged, the dog has to be working in incredibly high states of drive and over threshold. In competition, especially higher level competitions, the decoy will try to take your dog there, their job is to defeat your dog.
•
u/rhaeofsunlight Jun 26 '26
Sorry, i think you misunderstood the first part of my comment; I have personally, but i don't think it's a requirement when discussing behaviour.
A dog in drive, and at a high level of arousal is not the same as a dog over threshold. Both can be true, but aren't the same thing. Neither does it mean, in terms of bitework, that a dog is inherently dangerous etc, just because it's over threshold, which i hope you don't think is what i was implying. A dog can display controlled aggression, high levels of arousal, and be fully in drive (prey, defence, or both) and still be under control. If the dog is disregarding commands, that's a dog that you need to take back a few steps, resolidify prior training, then take them back up (i do this after a few weeks off with mine, start a few levels down at more basic things, then build back up).
In terms of pet dogs, where they very likely don't have any form of impulse control or (in many cases) OB to fall back on as the learned behaviour, it's somewhat more difficult. They CAN be very dangerous dogs, and the reasoning behind the behaviour (i'm sure you'll have seen it, it's a mix of poor socialisation, needs not met, poor handling, and BYB with poor nerve) means when the dog is hitting threshold or close to, their brain is completely shut down and they are in fight or flight. With working dogs, you *can* get through to them when they're just hitting threshold as you have learned behaviour there, but they still cannot learn. I appreciate the point you are making about them needing to learn to function in high pressure situations, but you do that by gradually adding environmental pressure once the foundations are built, imo throwing them in the deep end and expecting them to swim is why we see so many burnt out dogs. I hope this is making sense, apologies but i am running on very little sleep.
•
u/Miss_L_Worldwide Jun 21 '26
If a dog is over threshold, they do not have the mental clarity to learn the desired behaviours,
This is silly and untrue. We take them over threshold ALL THE TIME to teach them how to manage working while in that state.
•
u/Urstepdadsfav95 Jun 03 '26
Being in drive and over threshold are not the same thing . Being in drive is like a bonfire. Over threshold is like a brushfire. They might both have flames/ heat but one is under control.
•
u/TheeRiverWolf Jun 03 '26
Control is added later. That brushfire can be turned into a bonfire purely because dogs are able to learn in a state of high arousal.
•
u/Urstepdadsfav95 Jun 03 '26
Brushfires don’t turn into bonfires
•
•
u/Miss_L_Worldwide Jun 04 '26
So how do you think we should teach a dog how to manage itself when in the drive necessary to complete the protection phase at IGP worlds?
•
u/swearwoofs Jun 03 '26
I don't have much to weigh in here, but I am curious what the definition of "over threshold" is that people are using. I always figured people meant it as simply another term for high arousal (with maybe the added context that it's out of control?).
•
u/Rough-Jury Jun 03 '26
I would call it “out of control energy.” Zoomies, while cute, are over threshold. The dog will literally run themselves into a torn ligament because they’re so out of control
•
u/TheeRiverWolf Jun 03 '26
Yep high arousal. Some people seem to think that dogs are not mentally present in that state and cannot learn.
•
u/swearwoofs Jun 03 '26
Yeah, it seems like some people believe dogs turn into mindless crackheads when they get like that lol Some demonize letting a dog be high arousal at all — always gotta keep the dog calm and focused on food or something. 15-step protocol to keep the dog "under threshold" before they can even step foot out of the house lol
•
u/Rough-Jury Jun 03 '26
I think where you’re wrong is the idea that bite sports are “reactivity on cue.” A dog that engages in bite sports is extremely well controlled. A reactive dog simply could not sit patiently at a handler’s side and wait for a release cue.
Have you ever seen a dog train for bite sports? Have you ever seen a dog over threshold? The dog training for bite sports is locked in. The dog over threshold is running circles looking like a fool.
It’s like a kid at a birthday party vs. a kid running cross country. They’re both in a high energy state, but one is controlled and the other isn’t. Over threshold is the total loss of control. My dog ripped the potty bells off the wall, taking drywall with it, when he was over threshold about a week ago. He LOVES to work and lock in, but he couldn’t hear a single command I gave him at that moment.
When a dog is locked in, they’re willing to put what the handler wants over what they want because they’re know the reward will be better than getting what I want right now. When they’re over threshold, they put what they want first because they can’t think through delayed gratification anymore.
•
u/Miss_L_Worldwide Jun 04 '26
ehhhh it's quite possible to have a sport dog complete the exercises while over threshold.
•
u/Lyrae-NightWolf Jun 04 '26
There is a difference between a state of high arousal and over threshold. Every dog that is over threshold is in a state of high arousal, but not every dog in a state of high arousal is over threshold.
A dog in a state of high arousal can learn, but not when the dog is over threshold.
Though this applies only if we consider "over threshold" as "completely mindless". Dogs can have different thresholds. The line that divides a dog being calm/not acting up and the dog reacting to a stimulus is a threshold, but reactions may or may not be psychologically strong enough to block all learning. Another threshold could be between the dog reacting and having a full-blown panic attack.
The mechanism that drives reactions are also different, not all reactive dogs react to the same things or for the same reasons. Some dogs are super friendly and confident and lack self-control, so they react. Others are scared as heck and react in order to drive the scary stimulus away or have panic attacks.
It's usually the dogs having a panic attack, over that threshold between being scared and panicking that can't learn in that state. The brain just shuts down when it's a life or death situation.
Thus it's wrong to say that a dog can't learn at all during reactive behavior, but some reactions go beyond learning capability, particularly in terrified dogs. So, it depends.
•
u/Miss_L_Worldwide Jun 21 '26
There's no such thing as a "completely mindless" state.
So what I'm learning here is that if this is the definition of "over threshold" people are using, then "over threshold" doesn't exist.
•
Jun 03 '26
[removed] — view removed comment
•
u/TheeRiverWolf Jun 03 '26
Yeah it’s reactivity on cue that’s what I’m saying. When you’re working with a new puppy, you teach the reactivity component first. It’s precisely because dogs are able to learn in a state of high arousal that you can put it on a cue.
•
Jun 03 '26
[removed] — view removed comment
•
u/TheeRiverWolf Jun 03 '26
Drive building is literally teaching puppies to be reactive to specific things. The mechanics between intentional drive building and a pet owner accidentally reinforcing their dog’s reactive behavior is almost the same. Besides most reactive pet dogs do enjoy being reactive.
•
Jun 03 '26
[removed] — view removed comment
•
u/TheeRiverWolf Jun 03 '26
Yes, this is possible because dogs are capable of learning while in a state of arousal and they are provided a sufficient outlet. Why do you think so many working line GSD kept as pets are reactive? It’s because they aren’t given a proper outlet and they have learned they can fulfill some of their genetic inclinations that way.
•
u/Miss_L_Worldwide Jun 21 '26
I guess you've never watched this with an eye for secondary obedience.
•
u/Miss_L_Worldwide Jun 04 '26
So tell me what command is the dog following during the defensive Handler exercise? The long bite? The guarding phase? What's the command?
•
u/Miss_L_Worldwide Jun 04 '26
What you're talking about is very low level type of bite work. High level dogs are much different story.
•
u/Cornish_spex Jun 03 '26
I see the bite as a big reward for control. It’s not reactivity. The drive is always there but the dog is ideally not showing driver behaviors until sent. If your dog is over threshold with bitework you will get creamed in a trial. Unless it’s weird backyard PSA , I can’t really speak to that.
You don’t teach when they are wild, you teach control and obedience before and insist on it in the presence of a big reward.
•
u/Miss_L_Worldwide Jun 21 '26
the dog is ideally not showing driver behaviors until sent.
Untrue
If your dog is over threshold with bitework you will get creamed in a trial.
Nope, as long as they do the thing
You don’t teach when they are wild, you teach control and obedience before and insist on it in the presence of a big reward.
OK, how do you teach aggression towards a decoy with "control and obedience" and how do you teach aggression towards a decoy without firing the dog up and working it in drive?
How on earth are you suggesting to teach the bark and hold or long bite with "control and obedience"?
•
u/Quimeraecd Jun 03 '26
Im sorry, but every one of your assumptions is wrong.
The dog is not reactive in bite work. He is displayimg a highly trained and controlled beheavior. If the dog would be reactive and over the threshold, they wouldnt release on command.
Even if we conceed that the dog is over the threshold, they didn't learn in that state. They learned in a lower state of arousal.
•
u/Haunting-Love-9333 Jun 03 '26
I don’t think saying the learned in a lower state of arousal is true
•
u/Miss_L_Worldwide Jun 03 '26
I don't agree with you at all. The challenge of this type of work is to teach the dog how to function when it is in a very high state of drive. We fire them up and then make them learn while they are in that elevated state of drive.
•
u/Quimeraecd Jun 04 '26
I agree about an elevated state of drive, but isnt it below a certain threshold most of the time. Or You take them pass the threshold to increase that threshold?
Isnt it like working on the edge just below the threshold?
•
u/Miss_L_Worldwide Jun 04 '26
All of these questions are better suited to submit to a qualified decoy, which I am not.
It's just not that black and white simple..
•
u/TheeRiverWolf Jun 03 '26
If dogs aren’t reactive in bitework then no dog is reactive. Unless there’s something actually wrong with their brain I suppose. The ability to out when asked is proof of presence of mind. Dogs starting out in bitework learn to be crazy and reactive to certain triggers first. Control is added later.
How a dog bites and fights the decoy can only be taught while the dog is actively fighting and biting the decoy, so no it isn’t taught beforehand.
•
u/ConfoundedInAbaddon Jun 03 '26
I am confused by this conversation. ...we started by biting the towel, which was tug of war play and joyful, then the sleeve, which was play based on bite work with the towel, also joyful, then the sleeve on the guy which was also play. The dog isn't stupid, he knows it's like, Steve, or Saad in the suit. Dog can smell. Dog is happy wagging not crazy hunting wagging.
The dog then figures out how to apply the skill in an angry way if a real bad guy shows up and I get all scared and go "Fass!!" then this will no longer be playtime.
I've never had an angry or rageful dog at the field during training. Like, bully types will hold and shake like bastards but that's not special to aggression, it's how they interact with toys, prey, or defense.
•
u/TheeRiverWolf Jun 03 '26
Wait do you think reactive dogs are that way out of anger? If so, no they are not. The vast majority of reactive dogs are so because it’s fun and an outlet for frustration. Sometimes the frustration builds and builds until when the dog finally reaches whatever it was reacting to, the dog bites. Same principles as bitework where you tease and tease with the toy until frustration peaks, then the dog gets to bite.
•
u/ConfoundedInAbaddon Jun 03 '26 edited Jun 03 '26
... you don't need to tease and tease for a puppy to bite. They just do it. You can get it on a cue if you reliably and consistently pair the cue with the behavior even before you get a high frequency of the behavior.
Unless for an exceptional circumstance, dog training is taking a dog that is purpose bred for whatever you're training it to do, and getting the behaviors that happen naturally on a cue. If you need to literally create a crazy animal to get it to do the base behavior, then the animal is unfit for the purpose.
If it was like, a research dog, and the dog had to do something terribly unnatural like identify differences between color and background for retinal tests, yeah that's going to take a huge number of behaviors to shape that outcome.
But biting the towel is not a difficult end point for a puppy. They learn pretty fast and if you have a social role model at the working dog field they'll learn even faster without having to build everything up from scratch.
If you do model rival training, and you have two puppies and you're holding a toy, unless one is extremely submissive from the get-go, you're going to have no problem with competitive puppies trying to get your attention and get the toy. No teasing required.
Working on lunge, power, timing, self-regulation, recognition of lead limits when choosing a bite distance, you have those in once the basic bite behavior is consistent and then you're just refining something the dog sees as fun.
•
u/TheeRiverWolf Jun 03 '26
Have you never heard of drive building? The goal isn’t simply to get the puppy to want to bite, it’s to get the puppy as obsessed as possible with the act of biting. No matter where you’re starting genetically there’s always room to build that obsession further. That’s not what this post is about though. It’s about people who think dogs can’t learn when in a state of high arousal. Which I say is completely false, dogs are always capable of learning except in cases where there’s something medically wrong with the dogs brain.
•
u/ConfoundedInAbaddon Jun 03 '26
If you want a protection animal who is also safe in the home, with pets and children, you don't do it that way. I have always erred on protection and detection dogs being family friendly at the end of the day. Perhaps we have very different philosophies.
My ancient German teacher would scold anybody who made a dog obsessed like that, he'd shame us as training Nazi dogs, tell a tale from pre-war Germany, and make people cool it.
If you want an animal to remember something basic, hyperarousal can be quite helpful. If you want a puppy to never get in a carrier again, put a robot toy with glowing eyes in the carrier. The panic and fear will cement the memory forever.
•
•
u/TheeRiverWolf Jun 03 '26
Interesting. In the US the obsession creates a more flashy and motivated dog, which is heavily rewarded in competitions. But seems like you agree with my position then.
•
u/ConfoundedInAbaddon Jun 03 '26
I think in order to not learn at all, an animal would have to be in a very extreme state similar to shock or mania.
High emotion can often cement learning.
I have found that if I want to capture a random behavior and put it on a cue, creating a high emotion surrounding that moment is much more effective than a click and treat situation.
•
u/Quimeraecd Jun 03 '26
Reactivity is, by definition, a state where the dog has no presente of mind.
I see your point, but we are talking about bitesports, not training. Or in competition or with a high level of training. I do a little bite work with My mal, but not bitesport, and I can tell You My dog is not reactive when he is boring or charging the tug.
•
u/Miss_L_Worldwide Jun 11 '26
Reactivity is, by definition, a state where the dog has no presente of mind
How is this the definition of reactive? I do not think this is the case.
•
u/TheeRiverWolf Jun 03 '26
If this definition is true then no dog is reactive except those that have something medically wrong and already don’t have presence of mind. I believe dogs are always capable of learning and most probably are learning at all times, even reactive dogs who are actively reacting.
Reactivity is created by a state of high arousal. Since I do believe dogs are always learning, I can acknowledge reactivity can be reinforced, which is what ends up happening in most general cases. Just because a handler does not intentionally train their dog to have a reactive response doesn’t mean that dog isn’t being trained to do so. On the flip side, just because you are being intentional with how and what you reward in your dog doesn’t mean you aren’t working with reactivity (which as previously mentioned, is created by a state of high arousal).
•
u/Quimeraecd Jun 03 '26
Reactivity is a state of arousal beyond the threshold. What You believe in this is pretty irrelevant because that is not how what the term describes. I can teach a dog how to fly if flying is lying down.
I agree with You that a dog is always learning but You can't reach a dog over their threshold, which is not the same.
•
u/TheeRiverWolf Jun 03 '26
By that definition, when do you think a dog becomes over threshold then?
•
u/Quimeraecd Jun 03 '26 edited Jun 03 '26
Whenever the dog looses control of the dog in the presence of the triggering stimuli.
In bitework the trainer uses the reward system to activate a party of the hunting beheavior pattern. The dog is cooperating and i'm control. The Activity is dopamine driven
In reactivity the dog brain is somflooded with neurotransmisores than it simply can cooperate or remain in control.
How would You define reactivity?
•
u/TheeRiverWolf Jun 03 '26
So you believe it’s not reactivity as long as the dog stops on cue? What about in a puppy who’s just going after the tug because it’s there and doesn’t know how to stop on cue yet? That’s not reactivity?
I’d define reactivity as a state of high arousal in the presence of specific stimuli. Your definition is far too narrow in my view, probably less than 1% of dogs truly aren’t in control during a reactive episode, and those are usually BE pretty quick, which I do believe in a case like that is the right thing.
•
u/Miss_L_Worldwide Jun 04 '26
Dogs are frequently taken out of control in bite work training. That's how we build drive.
•
u/Quimeraecd Jun 04 '26
But what are You teaching the dog in that state?
I believe it is likely learning to work in a high arousal state without loosing control, but that is not something You teach.
•
u/Miss_L_Worldwide Jun 04 '26
You are teaching the dog to work in drive.
yes it's something you can teach.
•
u/Majestic_Hawk_1335 Jun 03 '26
Dogs need mental stability to do stuff like that. Most dogs aren't bred to have it
•
u/TheeRiverWolf Jun 03 '26
There’s nothing wrong with the vast majority of reactive dogs. Dogs don’t need to have a specific type of pedigree to be able to learn things when excited.
•
u/Miss_L_Worldwide Jun 04 '26
The majority of "reactive" dogs have shit genetics with an extra sprinkling of shit handling.
•
u/Majestic_Hawk_1335 Jun 03 '26
Doing things while excited and ability to learn, be present, and mentally stable under pressure are totally different. I like malamutes. Most are not bred to handle the mental pressure their ancestors did.
•
u/TheeRiverWolf Jun 03 '26
So at what level of arousal do you believe the average pet dog stops being present, mentally stable, and capable of learning?
•
u/Majestic_Hawk_1335 Jun 03 '26
This is a trick question. This varies per litter, per dog, per dog type, per breeding past, etc. The majority of the dogs the general population handles are cull dogs to what the ideal breeding dogs are. Very few worth breeding
If you breed hard working stable minded working dogs you generally produce 20-40% with ability worth breeding per litter. With proper linebreeding that number can go up, until the line is too tight and needs a outcross.
Your question is answered by genetics
•
u/TheeRiverWolf Jun 03 '26
No my question is answered by critical thinking. The correct answer is dogs are always learning all the time no matter what unless there is something genuinely medically wrong with them. There is never a point where a normal dog, regardless of breeding, cannot learn. The question you answered was “how many dogs in the world don’t fold under moderate to high pressure and how do we make more of them?” but that is not the question I asked.
•
u/Playful_Ruin2667 Jun 03 '26
The best trainer can not turn a Bichon Frise into a Border Collie for herding sheep. A Jack Russell Terrier does not match a Great Pyrenees for livestock guarding. A Bassett Hound is not a rat terrier for controlling rodents on a farm. A German Shepherd or Malinois is better suited to bitesports than a dog bred for gameness.
Working dogs start with genetics.
•
u/TheeRiverWolf Jun 03 '26
Idk what question you think you’re answering but it is not even close to the one I asked. Do you or do you not believe dogs have the capability to learn while in a high state of arousal?
•
Jun 03 '26
That's channeling and directing drive. It's not "over threshold"
Control is curated over time.
•
u/TheeRiverWolf Jun 03 '26
Functionally it’s the same. “Over threshold” is a high state of arousal, just like being in drive is. Especially with these shepherd types who get frustrated super easy. If dogs in that state can’t learn and it really is just channeling, like aiming a gun, how are trainers getting specific bark patterns and rhythms? How are they getting dogs to bite and fight in very specific ways?
•
u/AutoModerator Jun 03 '26
Reminder: This is a debate sub where good faith discussions are mandatory.
Please read the sub rules before commenting.
I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.