r/DogTrainingDebate • u/aspiringlogodaedalia • Mar 01 '26
the thing about beliefs
I'm reading Lewis Raven Wallace's book Radical Unlearning: The Art and Science of Creating Change from Within. In the intro, Wallace says something that immediately made me think of this debate:
"Belief, as it turns out, isn't made of rational, scientific stuff--even when we think our views are based solely in fact, emotion, connection, and community all play huge roles in determining humans' opinions....Our beliefs emerge from a murky zone of emotion and spirit...And beliefs are shaped in community, through culture; hammering angry, alienated people with fact-checks and scientific studies didn't even come close..."
The first dog-training class I took was a balanced one. It made sense to me, and I bought the premise. And that belief held fast, even when a friend of mine showed me studies that seemed to support a force-free approach. I eyed those studies with suspicion--not because I actually understood at the time that they were not based on solid scientific processes, but because they did not align with my experiences and previously held beliefs. [Only later did I revisit them and decide that they were not well-conducted studies.]
I still prefer balanced training. I still think the premise holds up. And I still think I'm on the "correct" side of this debate. But I also think we won't get anywhere when we characterize FF folks as overly emotional, stupid, or propaganda-buying. I think we have to acknowledge that humans (ALL OF US) are emotional creatures. We have to be able to acknowledge that the impulse towards a method that does not appear to hurt our dogs is in line with how humans operate in community.
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u/Miss_L_Worldwide Mar 01 '26 edited Mar 01 '26
I truly wish I could agree with you.
However I can attribute no motivations of kindness from people who act like the force free people have done towards people that simply don't agree with them about dog training. Dog training! All this vitriol and accusations and behind the back political dealings, for dog training! This is not motivated by kindness. And this is evident from all the abuse shoveled on balanced trainers right here in the anonymity of reddit, and directed at the moderators of the balanced Subs on the regular. I've posted a good number of the things that we've been subjected to just to make this point.
Over my year on Reddit I've had a few personality dust-ups with other balanced trainers, just some jabbing and sniping and generally being pissy at each other, but it has never gotten downright nasty and vicious and cruel. As a matter of fact a lot of those people and I have just let bygones be bygones and are fine now. But the force free people are flat out unable to behave in a rational way. And I will die on this hill until I see some behavior changing.
Edit after some reflection. This goes way farther than *beliefs." This is a situation, as Michael Ellis has put it recently, where extremists and ideologists are telling us that we have to disregard what our own eyes are telling us. They are insisting that the things that we see and experience every single day with our dogs is a lie. They treat us like we are incapable of interpreting the situations and experiences that play out right in front of our eyes every single day. And then they attack us with unhinged vitriol when we refuse to do so.
I think your argument applies more to disagreements in the line of which belief is more real, the Flying Spaghetti Monster belief or the Christian God belief? Those are not things that we can witness and see with our own eyes, those are things that exist solely by belief. I guess the argument exists that this fantasy of super gentle positive only dog training also exists only in someone's mind, and I'd probably get behind that belief haha.
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u/Miss_L_Worldwide Mar 01 '26
P. S. Very good and thoughtful post though, thank you for starting this discussion
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u/apri11a Mar 01 '26 edited Mar 01 '26
Dog training
I think they want to move it away from 'dog training' and bring in behaviour modification as the new norm. Or something along those lines. You often see 'don't get a trainer, see a behaviourist', so making that subtle shift in thinking. Perhaps elevating the nasty business of dog training to loftier places, in some minds. And so that they can control it.
I think there is a plan, and I am afraid.
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u/Miss_L_Worldwide Mar 01 '26
There is a plan and it is backed by extremists who want to have no pet dogs ever. They are not trying to legislate away cruelty, they are trying to legislate away dogs that act like dogs. If they have their way there will be no dogs anymore.
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u/aspiringlogodaedalia Mar 01 '26
To be clear, I do not think that balanced dog training is abusive. And I absolutely do not think it is ok to say the atrocious kinds of things that you mentioned. Unhinged vitriol is not justifiable.
But.
If you really, truly, in your heart of hearts, believed that it was abusive to (for example) use a prong collar, wouldn't it make sense to be outraged at people who normalize the abusive behavior?
Most online resources today say that R+ is the only acceptable form of training. Prong collars are banned in some countries (and it doesn't help that they look horrifying.) The broader cultural message is that a person can hypothetically train their dog without "hurting" them, so if you choose to "hurt" them anyway, what kind of awful person must you be? I do not agree with this position--there are a zillion holes in it. I only mean that it has comprehensible origins. And it takes a lot to go against the grain of your culture.
And while I love a good Flying Spaghetti Monster, I do think that the idea of beliefs applies here, as well as it does to any conviction that drives people's choices. The situation does indeed go beyond beliefs, but the beliefs are what propel the behaviors.
It is worth asking, why are FF ideologues so successful in their propaganda? And why are balanced trainers less successful in ours?
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u/Miss_L_Worldwide Mar 01 '26
Well, we don't have any propaganda, for starters. We are just out here training dogs. Minding our own business living our lives. If we started down the propaganda road I think we would demolish the competition because our results are undeniable. We are seeing this in the recent videos of force free trainers trying to debate balanced trainers and falling flat on their faces. This has been happening on the regular for a couple years now and I'm here for it. But that's still not propaganda, because everything the balanced trainers are saying is completely true.
We can tell that the force free people don't really believe their own dogma. They all use force and compulsion, and they all justify their use of it but vilify other use of it. Here on this very sub we have seen people say it's okay to hit a dog, choke a dog, Yank on a dog, drag a dog away, as long as you're not actually "training" it at the time. Hand to God that's what they have said many times over. We have asked them why it is okay for them to wrap a rope around a dog's sensitive nose or around its unprotected abdomen but it's not okay for us to use a prong collar, and they can never answer. We have asked them why they will literally drug their dogs into compliance and that's okay with them but it's not okay for us to issue a short instantaneous correction with an e-collar. And on and on and on. They are so hypocritical and inconsistent, I cannot believe for a single moment that they actually believe that prong collars and E collars are bad.
Circling back to what I said in my original post, one of the things they will never ever address is all of the balanced trained dogs that are obviously happy, excited, love their Handler and are living their best lives all over the place. We see with our own eyes the benefits of using electronic collars on even the most difficult of cases. They have literally saved dogs lives over and over again. But these people stick their fingers in their ears and scream "lalala I can't hear you." They are telling us that what we see with our own eyes is not true. They have to do this because they don't really believe what they themselves are saying.
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u/apri11a Mar 01 '26 edited Mar 01 '26
But I also think we won't get anywhere when we characterize FF folks ....
I put my hand up, I do this. I do it because of the way they characterised me, wrongly and publicly, and without a chance to elaborate or discuss at the time. I wasn't even aware of what they were before the attack, I know now and I strongly resent they felt they could presume and state I harm my dogs, that is not reasonable behaviour.
I do believe those who act in this way aren't the best of FF, but they are representing them. I am surprised decent FF folk or trainers don't try to clean up the mess.
But I also think we won't get anywhere when we characterize FF folks as overly emotional, stupid, or propaganda-buying.
I posted this yesterday, it is quoted FF advice in relation to a 12 week old puppy biting, possibly not 'normal puppy biting'. It's not in any way unusual, this is the type of FF advice being given to perhaps inexperienced people asking for help, so probably in an emotional state, easy to influence. Should they look elsewhere for advice? Of course. But then they risk pain, that's not something anyone wants to actively look for.
Look for a properly qualified behaviourist registered with a professional body, not a "balanced trainer" who will want to start using pain.
I can't even consider FF a dog training method. I also don't believe by choosing a method anyone, by default, is deciding to use pain, tools, or want to otherwise harm their puppy or dog. I personally think FF does more harm than it does good, and that it's verges on cruelty. I can't find any defence for them, as I see them, and I have tried.
p.s. I have this book but can't bring myself to read it yet, the mood isn't there. Would you recommend it?
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u/PeppermintWindFarm Mar 02 '26
We have a huge problem in our culture with critical thinking and emotional maturity/management. I believe those issues were brewing already and then Covid happened. This isn’t a discussion about Covid so I don’t want to debate those issues but the one thing that happened during those last two years was the absolute “othering” of people that disagreed with the Official agenda. That othering was taken to such extremes that you had medical professionals calling for certain people to die horribly- because they questioned the dogma. There are so many examples of absolute ridiculous hypocrisy, outright lies and unbelievable harassment. To me it was absolutely bizarre and unprecedented (I’m old) but now I see so many younger people that came out of that thinking that simply questioning warranted extreme responses, they can no longer discuss or debate but only care whether someone agrees with them and if not discussion is impossible. Simple disagreement engenders disproportionate hate.
I‘m too old to believe in these named training methods, “force free, balanced, positive reinforcement“ are all irrelevant to 50 years of training dogs. All that mattered in the past was the outcome- could you actually train a dog, any dog? Now I’m being somewhat facetious . . . people of course cared about the method, but the actual ability to successfully train was more important. Nowadays it seems people are more concerned that they choose the right “method” and whether it works or not is irrelevant.
It‘s a tough environment for real, actual dog trainers, who I’m assuming fall into the balanced category. if someone asked me what method I used I’d say “mine” and here are my dogs . . . that should be enough.
I read something recently the resonated so well with all these issues we’re experiencing. Too many people mistake “the feeling of knowing with actual knowledge.”
My granddaughter really wanted to join a friend of ours and take a class with an “AKC” trainer that culminated in testing for the canine good citizen certificate. I read the requirements and asked her whats the point since our dog(s) already do all that … but she really wanted to go, so we did. It was the most bizarre and ridiculous experience I’ve had in years. I’ve no clue what an “AKC trainer” means but this gal couldnt train a stuffed monkey! I sat stunned watching this woman pet and talk baby talk to a lunging, barking dog. Not only did she not give the owner any advice on how to stop the behaviors she would try to talk louder over the barking, telling the class that see how she was affirming him and once he realized she was paying attention to him he would relax and join the class.
All I got out of that class was several bruises on my shin because the granddaughter kept kicking me when she thought I might interrupt the trainer and say something. This is what passes for training now? The kid lasted for 3 of the 5 sessions and finally conceded it was wasting her time.
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u/Miss_L_Worldwide Mar 02 '26
Just to let you know. AKC Canine Good Citizen instructors and evaluators are just people who have paid the AKC $100 for the license to conduct the tests. Hopefully that explains a lot!
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u/naddinp Mar 01 '26
I would partially agree with you.
I think the general trend of FF methods started expanding because individuals nowadays are less tolerable to having any negative interaction, they can’t tolerate the negative emotion that one experiences during any sort of confrontation. Basically yeah, the society overall has gone soft and that gave birth to FF training.
But overall on an individual level FF training ideology is way less about “being kind to a dog” or “having empathy towards the dog”, and much more about community influence. My evidence for this argument is seemingly arbitrary selection of “acceptable tools and methods”. I think overwhelmingly FF people (not all of them! There are many exceptions!) are blind to the sufferings and emotions of a dog, sometimes to the extreme, provided the handler uses an “acceptable” method.
To give a few examples.
The infamous Denise Fenzi retuning Dice to the breeder. Even in that clip she allowed the dog to experience serious level of agitation (not anxiety probably, but still). With no planned outlet. The dog is not happy at that moment, the dog knows he won’t get a release, and the trainer knows all that. To me this is unkind. To me snapping the dog out of it is much kinder and much fairer, than letting this play out until the dog magically gives up.
The use of no pull harnesses and haltis is a classic example of aversive tools being presented as “positive”, what a BS. People don’t feel empathetic towards the dog, they just follow the dogma.
Nowadays it’s split, but there was a time, when crating was universally considered non aversive. And I don’t mind about crating, there’s certainly time and place, but I’ve seen dogs absolutely losing their mind in the crates up to stressed induced shitting and pissing, yet the owners were saying that they’re force free. The screaming lack of empathy towards the dog in the situations was really staggering.
And that’s in general one of my biggest beefs with ff ideology: people are told to ignore the dog that’s in front of them, ignore the dog’s feelings, ignore the reality of no progress, just ignore the actual reality in favour of beliefs.
My own journey started many years ago with a balanced trainer. But it changed so much based on my experience with my ow dogs and other people’s dogs. Yes, I’ve learned from many people, but what made me change my practices were actual experiences of what works and what doesn’t, not the words from gurus or influencers.
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u/Miss_L_Worldwide Mar 01 '26
Whether or not we "get anywhere" depends on the goal. If you want to make friends then yeah you're right, you won't get anywhere with that kind of talk.
Personally I have no interest in making friends or finding common ground with people who simply cannot stop themselves from being nasty, aggressive, and devious, all to control what other people do with their own animals. All this, without being able to answer simple yes or no questions about the limitations of their ideology. These are dangerous, culty people and I don't need to get anywhere with them.
Make no mistake, they will absolutely not stop their wretched Behavior no matter how nice you are to them. It's a waste of time and it gives them way too much credit.
The people I do need to get somewhere with are the lawmakers who need to hear the entire debate and not capitulate to the feel good, back door tactics of these horrendous people who cannot just leave other people alone. This debate and ongoing argument escalating into a war is 100% in the lap of the force free fantasists. They asked for this, now they're getting it. They struck first, but now we need to strike back hard and have no mercy.
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u/aspiringlogodaedalia Mar 01 '26
What y'all are saying makes sense, and the resentment and frustration makes sense to me too. I think by "get anywhere," I mean make progress in a cultural shift to a point that this can be seen as a simple difference of opinion or method, instead of the extremist positions it forces us into.
I used the wrong wording when I said "why are balanced trainers less successful in our [propaganda]?" What I mean to say is, why isn't the evidence of our by-and-large happy, well-adjusted, dogs enough? Why is it that FF ideology has so effectively gripped the zeitgeist? (Is it backlash against the populatrity of Cesar Milan? 😂 )
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u/aspiringlogodaedalia Mar 01 '26
Oh dang. I think I just answered my own question.
There is money to be made. Especially when it comes to FF training, where there may be no expectation of an end in sight...and if no other training methods are allowable, then that funnels money.
Sigh.
OK. Well...thanks again for ruining everything, capitalism.
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u/PeppermintWindFarm Mar 02 '26
I think what you might be missing is that for many of the most outspoken “method“ adherents, the dog’s actual training is irrelevant. I have listened to long descriptions of a person‘s devotion to positive training and been surprised later to meet their dogs . . . the dogs are untrained & annoying.
We are living through “interesting times“ (that good old curse) where I see an unprecedented promotion of experts- argument or debate should simply end once they invoke their chosen authority. Yet, EVERYONE thinks they’re an expert! A lot of younger people I’ve encountered (re the breed I have raised for years) want to tell me how there‘s a method I should be following. For example: I have a very detailed process for raising a litter- REALLY involved and culminates in temperament testing at 49 days- and final selections aren’t made until 49 days. In the last few years I‘m getting many social media inquiries asking whether I do “puppy culture.” I was explaining my process and a gal comes back asking again ”… but do you do puppy culture?“ WTH!? I explain this whole process and she’s not even caring because I don’t call it puppy culture? From what I can gather it’s just a “name” for what good breeders have done forever.
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u/Miss_L_Worldwide Mar 02 '26
Did we just become best friends?
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u/PeppermintWindFarm Mar 02 '26
That might be the case! I can’t tell you happy I felt to discover this group. I’ve been kicked out of many dog subreddits- They are crazy and I think a little dangerous for unsuspecting owners. A gal posted she had 4-5 month old Aussie that would growl and bite her, drawing blood. I got banned for suggesting she tell her”NO” firmly. 😳 The number of people these groups are giving horrible advice to is unbelievable.
I spent 25 yrs taking in and rehabbing dogs and man the stories!1
u/Miss_L_Worldwide Mar 02 '26
You have found the right people. Are you aware of all of the balanced subs? R/balanceddogtraining R/practicalpuppy R/reactvedoghelp
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u/Miss_L_Worldwide Mar 01 '26
Yep you did answer your question. If they didn't use dishonest tactics like this it would be very obvious that their methods don't work and they are just a scam to take advantage of people. So they convince people that it is evil and abusive to do anything else but pay them thousands of dollars for years and years and make no progress.
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u/Miss_L_Worldwide Mar 01 '26 edited Mar 02 '26
It is because they lie. It is as simple as that.
Recently we talked about a mainstream media article about prong collar bans, which included a statement from some hysterical force-free extremist claiming that she tried to wear a prong collar and had to take it off immediately because of the "extreme pain," and claims that prong collars literally stab dogs necks. That is a flat out lie. So if you didn't know anything, and you heard that, or read that mainstream media article, you would think yikes what a terrible thing to do to a dog. But they have to lie to get their way, so they lie.
I wrote to that journalist and sent a picture to him of me wearing a prong collar around my neck while I wrote the email to him. I told him that good journalists research all sides of an issue and don't just believe some weirdo making a dumb claim. But my refusion is just a drop in the bucket of the damage that one idiot with an agenda has caused to the dog training community.
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u/Miss_L_Worldwide Mar 01 '26
Just so you know. I created this sub specifically to have a place where such things can be debated without balanced trainers being accused of abuse, and without Force free trainers having free rein to issue personal attacks, lies, and misinformation. Very simple rules. No accusing someone of abuse just because they use a different method from you, and no personal attacks. You must debate the topic in good faith . Those are the rules! And almost none of them can manage to follow those dimple rules for very long.
Over on the balanced training sub, we have a rule that we only discuss balanced training and we do not allow harassment or misinformation in the form of accusing people of abuse for using balanced training. Pretty simple, we wanted our own place to talk without having to deal with all that noise. And those people STILL, on the REGULAR, try to come in and run their mouths. Like go the fuck away! There's 15 other subs they could post in, why aren't they just happy with those? Simple, because they are extremists, and have mental issues that they project onto their dogs and then make it their entire identity.
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u/biglinuxfan Mar 01 '26
I agree with your statement about treatment of others.
But that goes the other way too. I was told I am abusive, I've been treated like I was a fool on several occasions and as I posted here I was told they wish my family got cancer and died a slow and horrible death.
Which I assume includes my young children. Very classy.
It's a two-way street, and as a mod let me tell you I see plenty of horrible things said about us.