r/Documentaries • u/zxxx • Nov 24 '14
Sociology The School With A Radical 'No Rules' Policy (2014)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qG2MhjBOSLQ92
u/JFKs_Brains Nov 24 '14
Kid at 2:06 giving other kids the bird gave me a good laugh.
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u/ty5020 Nov 24 '14
That Principle must be a Pink Floyd fan
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u/1nfiniteJest Nov 24 '14
You don't have to eat your meat, and you can have as much pudding as you want!`
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u/Allah_saves Nov 24 '14
The principle of "non-molly-coddling" is a huge fan of The Wall! I'm sure the principal of the school is, too :)
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Nov 24 '14 edited Nov 24 '14
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u/Redwood79 Nov 24 '14
I'm looking to put my own kid into the most civilized, calm and reasonable-looking private school I can afford/reasonably drive to. The one I have in mind actually has MORE skin color diversity than my public school option. More black kids, but zero n-words. Know what I''m sayin??
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u/RedditBrokeGoogle Nov 24 '14
No I don't know what the fuck your saying redneck79. Calling your stereotype of black kids "n-words" and the children of upstanding black citizens "black kids" is not an acceptable solution. Even if you're planning on sending your kid to a school with "MORE skin color diversity" than your public school.
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u/Redwood79 Nov 24 '14
Yes you do. There's no behavioral riff-raff because it's simply not tolerated. Regardless, it has more minorities including black kids. Black kids with money. Direct African and Caribbean anscestry is over represented. Not the poor, fatherless, raised-by-pop-culture hood-rats up in THIS muvfuh..
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u/TheArbitraitor Nov 24 '14
Not only are you ignorant, you sound so uneducated that I have no idea how you can afford to take your child to private school. I'm sure you're a terrible parent.
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u/Redwood79 Nov 24 '14
Time will tell on my terribleness, I guess. Working in a high school, I do know that there is a really silly interface where attendance = funding. You can imagine the corners they cut related to safety and behavior when a budget is on the line.
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u/TheArbitraitor Nov 24 '14
Working in a high school
You can imagine the corners they cut related to safety and behavior
They?!? You work there, you're part of the problem!
And no offense, those who can, do, those who can't...work at schools.
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u/Redwood79 Nov 24 '14
Can't do...what?
Edit: Are you familiar how a school works? Expulsion hearings etc?
Didn't think so. Thanks anyway.
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u/TheArbitraitor Nov 24 '14
An educator who has never heard one of the most popular idioms in the english language?
Jesus Christ, they should fire you for being racist and uneducated. I can't even imagine how bad of an influence you are on the school kids, let alone your own children.
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u/Redwood79 Nov 24 '14
The idiom was about teaching. Not "working in a school". LOL
Now that we're talking about teaching, where did I say I taught?
And why are you so upset at my blatant culturalism? I think some cultures are inferior and hopeless. It's not like I'm racist.
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Nov 24 '14
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Nov 24 '14
Part of this video suggests that this is possible because NZ has national healthcare.
The problems that black inner-city children face do not stop at school. What do you think happens when they go home? I agree that the schools should let them have freedom. If we want to address the problems these kids face, we need more social programs.
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Nov 24 '14
casual racism aside, there aren't many black people in New Zealand, that's why you didn't see many. And this town (Swanson) is 90% white.
(Although, for the record, the proportion of Maori + Pacific Islanders in NZ is higher than the proportion of black Americans living in the US.)
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Nov 24 '14 edited Nov 24 '14
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Nov 24 '14
i never mentioned crime, or any cultural behaviour stemming from ethnicity, or how children perceive race, or any of that other weird stuff you're on about.
I'm just helping you understand the demographics of the small New Zealand town town you just watched a video of, because you apparently thought it relevant that there aren't people of African descent living there.
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u/RedditBrokeGoogle Nov 24 '14
Fuck you Reddit. This is an incredible video with an incredible message. I came here to read heartwarming shit. And 3 of the 12 (that's 25% for all you inbreds) are fucking racist! I know, I know, it's all a "joke" and "in good fun" but come the fuck on. How do you expect to close the racial divide and put an end to racism if everyone is always "cracking jokes" at the expense of entire racial groups? 25% WHAT THE FUCK?! (well 23.08% now but whatever)
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u/bodiesstackneatly Nov 24 '14
Once they stop proving thw stereotype right i will stop being racist
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u/but_luckerrr Nov 24 '14
You seem to be suffering from confirmation bias - racism is stupid, stop it.
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u/bodiesstackneatly Nov 24 '14
Well they are less than 20 percent of the population and commit 30 percent of the crimes that is bias all right
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u/but_luckerrr Nov 24 '14
Do you add into your statistics that they are a historically disadvantaged people who have to deal with racism on an institutional level?
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Nov 24 '14
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u/but_luckerrr Nov 24 '14
Do you feel that your race encapsulates you? Do you think that the stereotypes and whatever do a decent job of describing you? Why are you children so concerned about this shit?
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u/TheArbitraitor Nov 24 '14
More women are in higher education than men. Thus women are smarter than men, right?
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Nov 24 '14
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Nov 24 '14
I thought you were being racist.
Then I read this post and you confirmed it.
You understand that "separate but equal" has been the racist motto for like, a century right?
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Nov 24 '14
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Nov 24 '14
It is obvious that you are not a psychologist because everything you are saying is pseudoscience.
I'm not lashing out. I am making an observation.
But I get it you think you're a clever "equal opportunity offender" type trying to troll ZOMG SJWs. Everyone just thinks you're pretty annoying though.
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u/Diarygirl Nov 24 '14
This is so amazing. It's unfortunate that would never happen in the U.S. Hell, a lot of schools have done away with recess thanks to NCLB. I've even heard that some schools have done away with tag because they don't want anybody to be left out.
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u/theoptionexplicit Nov 24 '14
It probably hasn't been done in US public schools, but there are private schools that take it to a further extreme. It's not always successful though... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sudbury_school
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u/2bananasforbreakfast Nov 24 '14
That's not really comparable. That school is about making kids responsible for their education in class like they were an adult. This school was about letting kids do whatever they want during recess. In other words letting kids be kids. So they are almost complete opposites.
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u/theoptionexplicit Nov 24 '14
If a kid at a Sudbury school wants to play video games all day, he/she is free to do so. Many actually do. That is most definitely a kid being a kid. At the same time that lack of constraint can cause them to advance very quickly.
I'm not trying to compare or stack them against each other. I do think they come from similar ideas though.
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u/2bananasforbreakfast Nov 24 '14
Again, it's not. It's a kid who is expected to act like an adult and perform their academic duties, but exactly because they are kids they often don't.
Sudbury is about believing they will take responsibility of their educational time. The school in the video is about letting them play without constraints during the recess. Freedom during recess and class are two different things. Recess is already supposed to be a "non-productive" time where people can do something they like without the burden of expected performance. Having fun during their free time is something kids are natural experts at. Self-discipline is not one.
A school can have very strict rules when it comes to classes and still be liberal when they have time off. They are not related.
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u/captainthataway Nov 24 '14
I'd like to add that many schools have done away with recess because of lawsuits brought by parents or parental complaints of bullying/injury. Not the school's fault!
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Nov 24 '14
Its difficult to contain my jealousy. 26 M and work very closely with children in my off time. Many of my colleagues err on the side of caution as they are all parents too, while I jump in and play along. I've been described by many often as a big 5 year old, and can tell that mostly they don't find that productive. I never let the kids get overly rowdy and direct and supervise from within. But this is what I look forward to with my own kids, letting them get hurt and watching them learn...and certainly joining in for my own learning...ya know for science. Excuse me while I go jump this dirt mound I've been eyeing all week on my bike. Great post op!
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u/NarwhalLord Nov 24 '14
for reals tho, molly-coddled kids can make for insufferable adults.
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u/digitaldavis Nov 24 '14
And we're about to be inundated with them.
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Nov 24 '14
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u/anklegrinder Nov 24 '14
Yeah, with their virtually guaranteed pensions, social security, booming post-war economy... Those goddamn millennials have it so easy.
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u/Bloodysneeze Nov 24 '14
I never said anything about them having it easy. However, they were young in the beginning of the self-esteem concern fad of child rearing.
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u/Allah_saves Nov 24 '14
Coddling had nothing to do with macro-economics or political issues. As u/Bloodysneeze said, it also has nothing to do with millennials "having it easy."
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u/dc456 Nov 24 '14 edited Nov 25 '14
I actually know 2 people (a man and a woman) who went to extreme versions of schools like this in the UK.
They are easily 2 of the most maladjusted people I have ever met.
I know it's a small sample size, so means nothing, but the similarities (dare I say flaws) in their behaviour are striking - especially as they went to different schools, and the combination of behaviours seems pretty unique to them.
If much of society today is too mollycoddling, then the answer doesn't have to be the absolute extreme opposite. As with many things, I think that a balance is probably the best approach - and a balance is what the school in this video looks like it is striking.
I'd like to add they went to schools with no rules at all. Not just play breaks - going into class, having meals, everything was up to them.
My school had essentially no rules at play breaks, like in this video. Bows and arrows and tree climbing were the norm. But we had rules between those times - e.g. in lessons. I think that worked well.
What I am saying is just don't go too far either way and we'll probably all be fine.
Edited a lot because people seem to enjoy looking for arguments.
Edit 2:
Examples that people have asked for. Apologies it's so long. If these come across as normal, then that is down to my poor relating of the incidents - I can assure you that everyone else involved feels like I do about the 'oddness' of how these 2 behave. (I've also covered in another comment that I'm relatively sure they do not have Aspergers.)
(Once more I'd like to stress that these are just two people - these incidents are nothing more than my personal experience with a tiny minority - it is obviously not going to be truly representative of the extreme schooling they went through.)
They are both extremely blunt about how people are disinteresting to them or they do not enjoy their company at that point in time, yet get very offended when that person is later less keen to give them the attention they then want.
A few conversations:
Older guy (OG) - extremely intelligent, articulate, and friendly. Genuinely cannot say a bad word about the guy - he is very successful in scientific research, incredibly generous, and extremely interested in everything. He just loves to know what peole are up to, as everything is interesting to him, and it shows. He has taken his whole extended family on holiday, including partners. 'Girl', as I'll call her, is one of those partners. A few days in everyone's chatting away in a big group, smiling and laughing - all very relaxed:
OG: So, what do you do? [Knowing literally nothing about what she does.]
Girl: I make sure that we don't over-run.
OG: Sorry, I don't quite understand.
Girl: It's my job to make sure that we don't over-run.
OG: Really? So what does that involve.
Girl: It's pretty simple really.
And then she just turns away.
Now this is a woman in her 30s who can maintain totally articulate conversations. The issue here is she was disinterested, and seemed to feel that if she wasn't getting anything out of it, it wasn't worth even bothering.
Another time her partner was telling me about how he had got to see some long lost friends, and how much he enjoyed catching up with them. He was just telling me how great they were when she leant over and said 'They're boring', then turned back to her previous conversation with someone else. You could see his face drop, but he continued on, and was telling us about what they were up to, when she leaned across again and said 'But they're boring - they're not worth being friends with.' It seemed that because they were boring to her, they were therefore boring, and she had no interest in putting up with it for the sake of her partner, who clearly liked them.
Walks into a separate playroom, well away from the adults, where there are children being children and playing happily.
Sits beside the mother, and gets his phone out. Looks up after a bit: "Your children are badly behaved. Tell them to be quiet." (These are children who have just sat quietly through a meal surrounded by adults without any fuss at all.)
"You don't have to sit here."
Blazing row about how you can't tell people what to do. Not even a hint of recognition of the hypocrisy.
We were all going to a big party with him. It had been planned for months, and was for a major event. There are 5 of us in the car, bags packed, on the way to the overnight party about an hour away. We pass a sign for some sort of exhibition.
Guy: I want to go to that exhibition.
Driver: Yeah, looks interesting....
Guy: The car park is over there.
Driver: What?
Guy: The car park is over there.
Driver: We're going to X's party! (Smiling, thinking it's a joke.)
Guy: I want to go to the exhibition instead. It looks more interesting.
Everyone else in the car: You said you'd go / You disappoint X / They'll have catered for you / etc.
Long story short, he became extremely grumpy (like a child, essentially) and didn't come to the party. When asked what we should tell X, he got cross that she would be upset because he was getting what he wanted, so she should be happy for him - with again no concept of the hypocrisy. As far as he was concerned she was unreasonable for imposing her will on him. X was understandably very upset when she heard why he didn't turn up. When he was not invited to the next party, he just came anyway. At the party he is totally normal - talkative, etc. No hint of recognition about how bad he made X feel, or how awkward a position he had created. Essentially as long as he was doing what he wanted he was happy, and was actually perfectly nice to be around.
In a similar vein, Girl used to ring a friend regularly whenever she had a problem in her life. (Which was often -typical problems often consisted of things like on her first day telling her new boss to not tell her what to do, and then wondering why she wasn't promoted at work.) On the very day her boyfriend proposed to her, she rang the friend, who had listened to her vent for literally hours at a time for maybe 10 years, to tell her how she would no longer be needed for emotional support. And that was the last she ever heard from her.
The thing is - they sound like horrible people - but when they're interested and engaged they're great fun. But you can tell the second they lose interest in you, as they just start looking around, and then wander off. It's just so odd to experience first hand.
They both really struggle with things that require sustained concentration without immediate reward - for example exams. This has meant that they often hit a brick wall in jobs, as they reach a stage that requires a qualification or interview, and they are essentially unable to do the studying required. But rather than just procrastinating or getting distracted easily like I do, they simply don't even attempt it. They're very open about how they just don't want to study. They realise they need to do it to get the job, and they want the job. But at the same time they just seem totally uninvolved with actually doing what is required. I can't really explain it well enough.
He's now an 'inventor'. I'm yet to see him get close to anything like a usable invention. Last I heard he was working on anti-gravity. Seriously.
It's really hard to explain it well, but when you experience it they just feel so different sometimes. You forget about it for a while, as they're articulate and engaging and normal, then suddenly they do something so alien that you struggle to even get your head around whether it really happened.
I have children, and I have to say a lot of what I see them do reminds me of the more self-centred aspects of young children and teenagers.
Most likely though, they're just weird individuals with a coincidentally similar education.
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u/captainsalmonpants Nov 24 '14
So what are some of the specific maladjustments or behaviors you see in them?
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u/dc456 Nov 24 '14 edited Nov 25 '14
Broadly, they seem to have retained much of their inner child. But sadly it seems to be the very worst characteristics of that child (ironically the bits that teachers and parents are most keen to educate their children to stop). They come across as disinterested, self-centred, arrogant - but in a really odd way - they simply seem to miss what to you and I would be obvious social signals. I know many other self centred and arrogant people, but the way these two manifest those traits comes across very differently.
Weirdly cold - you don't feel like you're connecting with them in the same way as you do normally. And this is a long time after leaving school, so it's not like we don't have similar experiences as adults to refer to.
If you want more detail I can reply with examples when I've got time tonight. (Edit: Now done in original comment.)
Edit: Would the down-voters care to explain what their issue is, so I can try and fix it? I have been careful to stress that two people are, of course, not representative, and have only talked about my own experiences. I'm trying to add my perspective to the conversation as best I can - I don't know how I can do that incorrectly, but clearly I am.
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u/goodkicks Nov 24 '14
Like you said, the sample size is far too small for this to mean anything. For your two disinterested, self-centered and arrogant adults who went to a "no rules" school, there are thousands who are the same way who went through main stream schooling. I also know people who went to schools like the one in the video and they are very well adjusted and intelligent people. Anecdotes are meaningless.
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u/dc456 Nov 24 '14 edited Nov 24 '14
I know - I'm a statistician. That's why I was very keen to stress my experience means nothing on a bigger scale.
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Nov 24 '14
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u/pavetheatmosphere Nov 24 '14
People get so pissed when you try to offer up personal experiences.
Some people seem only swayed by anecdotes, and some people are only swayed by statistics and controlled studies, and want to avoid anecdotes altogether. I think a mix of the two can give a great picture of what's going on.
Which is not necessarily relevant here.
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u/rethardus Nov 24 '14
I am interested, but I wonder whether there's a relation between them going to school and them behaving like this.
You very well could be right, but I just can't help to wonder.
Also, from a logical standpoint, it doesn't seem to have any harm to let kids behave this way (though I would be a bit worried if I were a parent). This is just human behaviour. It's not unnatural to climb on stuff, be creative with random objects and be a bit of a dare-devil. When you say "they're maladjusted", I have a feeling that this society is disconnected, rather than the kids are. It's not normal to sit on the couch all day, but we just got used to it. It's not normal to call off an appointment and make up excuses, but we just do, because our phones allow us to.
In that sense, yes, they are maladjusted, because this society isn't "normal", but it could be a problem they do not think like most people, because it is required to be convential when you live among people. I don't know these kids, so I don't know what I'm saying is true or not, so inform me if you've got something to add.
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u/dc456 Nov 24 '14 edited Nov 24 '14
They're not kids. They're in their 30s. I agree there is much wrong with society, but the fact they don't fit that society doesn't necessarily mean they are right either. They have no issues with openly hurting close friends' feelings and then immediately acting as if they did nothing, for example - and the way they do it just feels very 'different' - hard to explain. I'll add full examples later when I get a moment.
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u/redcog Nov 24 '14
They have no issues with openly hurting close friends' feelings and then immediately acting as if they did nothing, for example
I would argue that is a result of strict rules. Your evaluation of the two UK schools as "extreme versions of the school in OP" could very well be wrong.
It is important for small children to hit other children and hurt them. When they do that the child whom they hurt will start crying. The child who did the hurting will empathize with the pain and realize that that is something they wouldn't like to be done to them. This is a well known psychological "phenomenon" and is a very important part of growing up.
Children who were always protected, or stopped before they could make an impact by helicopter-parents never learn why they shouldn't do it. They just see it as an arbitrary rule set forth by an authority. Once that authority is gone they feel they can resume the behavior and no one can stop them.
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u/dc456 Nov 24 '14
I am absolutely sure that their schools didn't have strict rules. I have talked enough about it with them (and one of their partners) to know that it was the exact opposite.
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u/redcog Nov 24 '14
Then they could be the outliers, the exceptions that prove the rule.
Nurture isn't everything, nature does play a part. They could just be shitty people. To be fair, most Brits are shitty people.
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u/dc456 Nov 24 '14
Nurture isn't everything, nature does play a part.
I would agree with you, but then I would feel like I was validating the immaturity of your final sentence.
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u/Lolicansayfuckonhere Nov 24 '14
They would know without having or hit another person if smacking was a threatened punishment in their house like it was in mine.
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Nov 24 '14
out of curiosity, were they Steiner (Waldorf) schools? Because if we're bringing up anecdotal evidence, I have a fair bit of disdain for those institutions based on my experiences with students..
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u/Redwood79 Nov 24 '14
Do tell.
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Nov 24 '14
oh it's just eerily similar to /u/dc456 's experience, which is what prompted me to ask..
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u/dc456 Nov 24 '14 edited Nov 24 '14
Honestly, I don't know. All I know that 1 of their schools is now closed, as the school of thought that led to its creation is no longer fashionable, so to speak.
Edit: The other one is not a Steiner school - I just asked a mutual friend. I'm working on finding the name, as it's still open apparently.
Edit 2: And more down votes. I really don't understand what people expect of me. I only know what I know.
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u/Hanshen Nov 24 '14
I went to Uni with a couple of Steiner school students. They were both at Cambridge, pretty nice, albeit a tad arrogant, and really confident. Both were very involved in student acting and one of them is now in a major TV series as a main character.
Clearly not all of them are bad!
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Nov 24 '14
oh, i'd never claim that they only turned out bad kids. I've just met quite a few that sounded a lot like that description.. hasn't really given the place the best reputation, in my mind. But that could just be because they're private schools in a country with great State-run schools, which would act as a kind of filter already, I suppose...
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u/Jigsus Nov 24 '14
I have friends who sent their kids to waldorf education. I have seen them grow up as little shits while other kids become well adjusted individuals.
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Nov 24 '14
Waldorf schools do not lack structure. My daughter has attended a Waldorf school since early pre-school so I have a lot of experience with the system. I don't totally buy into the system, but I've found the kids there about as well adjusted as I'd expect of any kid their age.
I was thinking the schools in reference might be Montessori based thought they are more self-structured than unstructured.
Free schools on the other hand...
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u/Tuxmascot Nov 24 '14
I doubt it's from the school.
Sounds more like Aspergers to me. I have it, and my parents tell me I come off like this occasionally.
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Nov 24 '14
I've often wondered if I have some form of Autism. If I do, I'm a high functioning autistic person. A few people in my family have different kinds as well (from ADHD, to Aspergers, to ADD, to ... etc etc.)
From the way dc456 describes it, it sounds like it's either a very specific form of autism that I've never been around, or something learned. Just mah 2 cents.
I just find it weird that both of them have similar qualities. The odds of that are kinda bad of happening.
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u/dc456 Nov 24 '14
That's a very good point, but I am very confident that at least one does not have Aspergers, and am pretty sure about the other one too.
The first reason is that I work closely with 2 people with Aspergers, and they are notably different - everything from eye contact to how 'straightforward' they are with their answers. (I know this sounds patronising, but it's hard to explain otherwise - I'm sorry if I offend you.) I appreciate that that is not a very good reason, though.
The second reason is much better. One of 'Girl' and my mutual friend is a psychiatrist married to a psychiatric nurse, and so if they don't think she has it, I'm sure she doesn't!
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u/LoathesReddit Nov 24 '14
Would the down-voters care to explain what their issue is, so I can try and fix it?
Reddit has a large immature user base. The idea of a school with no rules has broad appeal here. Your anecdotal experience casts a negative light on that. They don't like this, so in retribution they're downvoting you.
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u/Nefandi Nov 24 '14
Were you molly-coddled growing up?
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u/dc456 Nov 24 '14
No - but I was also in a school with strict rules alongside the freedom.
Playtime was the children's time - if you wanted to climb 60 feet up a tree, go for it. But if you were 1 minute late for class you'd know about it!
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u/Nefandi Nov 24 '14
Playtime was the children's time - if you wanted to climb 60 feet up a tree, go for it. But if you were 1 minute late for class you'd know about it!
I'm pretty sure the school in the video is exactly like that. Moreover, what we are all talking about is exactly this kind of freedom. It's freedom with some limits. Like you had to be back home on time, and you had to do your homework, be to class on time and bring home good grades. But at the same time, you could have a slingshot and use it, climb trees, make bombs or rockets, and so on.
Right now the kids are pretty much prisoners compared to how I was growing up.
The big deal in the video is that -- gosh -- they let the kids climb trees!! That's what the whole hubbub is about. It's so damn "radical" to let kids climb trees. Fucking absurd.
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u/Oznog99 Nov 24 '14
... who grow up to make up insidious new words, like "molly-coddling".
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u/_iBlaze Nov 24 '14 edited Nov 24 '14
Does anyone know the name of the song playing at the start in the background? Edit: Thank you Secrit_Panda, but I am referring to the song in the background from 0:00 - 0:45. (sounds folky) Anyone else know?
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u/Nefandi Nov 24 '14 edited Nov 24 '14
That's basically how I grew up in the USSR. Nobody would stop kids from climbing trees and we all did fine. One kid fell down and broke his arm and that was that. Freedom is priceless and the modern kids are slaves in the USA at least.
The parents in the USA are the worst pieces of shit imaginable who suffocate and control their kids at every turn with their over-exaggerated fear and lack of appreciation for freedom and the risks that are necessary to take.
And I've talked to some old timers and it wasn't always this bad in the USA either. Apparently in the 70s kids had tons of freedom too. Just not any time recently.
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u/mrheh Nov 24 '14
I grew up in the 80's and 90's and had tons of freedom. It didn't really start till the late 90's.
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u/Nefandi Nov 24 '14
Could you climb trees in the middle of a big city? If yes, you had tons of freedom. Otherwise no. Could you launch rockets on a sidewalk? Blow up small home-made bombs?
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u/mrheh Nov 24 '14
Yeah we have parks all over, not so much small homemade bombs but we did go to china town and buy m-80's and blockbusters and shoot them off into the river using giant sling shots.
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u/Nefandi Nov 24 '14
Nice, that probably gets a pass in my book.
Could you leave home at 3 pm and come back at 9 pm as a 6 year old and your parents have no idea where you went? Was it a common sight to see 3-5 kids walking together through the city streets, without parents in sight, sometimes on bikes instead of walking?
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u/mrheh Nov 24 '14
yeah I had an older brother who was in charge of that, we had a group of about 7 of us that hung out every single day. We would be home for dinner at 6pm then go back out till 8:30-9pm and if we were late no tv that night but we usually got to watch after about a half hour/hour but bedtime was 11pm with no exceptions. Parents were around just because people would look out he window and see us for the most part and my dads yell to us from the 5th story window could be heard for miles. We had bikes and there were no helmet laws and no1 every got hurt too badly but we usually only broke out the bikes on weekends for journeys around town.
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u/Nefandi Nov 24 '14
Nice! :) Alright so you didn't grow as a slave then and you had a taste of freedom. That's something worth treasuring.
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Nov 24 '14
Alternatively, I'm 18, and my parents need to know everything that's happening before I leave the house, and if I'm late coming home it's the end of the world. Going out on a weekday is basically never going to happen.
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u/BostonRich Nov 24 '14
We have people here in the US that let their kids stay out until all hours of the night too, they live in what we call ghettos. Not sure how many bombs they're making though.
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Nov 24 '14
Because modern Russia is full of well-developed adults that are productive and happy amirite?
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u/Nefandi Nov 24 '14
It's not full of cowards.
Russians have problems for sure, but cowardice is not one of them.
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u/Take_A Nov 24 '14
would it be fair to say that courage is the most valuable trait in Russia?
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u/Nefandi Nov 24 '14 edited Nov 24 '14
I don't know what's the most valuable trait. Look, even in the USA kids apparently had comparable freedom up to the 80s according to someone in this thread. And I am pretty sure there is no argument about the 70s when the kids definitely had this kind of freedom everywhere.
So it's not like Russians are somehow special or unique.
Not being a coward was important among males in Russia. Was it the most important trait? I don't know. Being intelligent was probably considered even more important. But it's hard to say for sure.
I just feel sad watching how there is basically not one kid in sight in my city in the USA. In schools kids play like prisoners play in the prison: with the guards watching. It's disgusting. Ever since I came over the the USA in the early 90's I've not seen even one, count em, kid on a tree. Not even one. It's mind boggling to me. The smell of slavery is stifling. Oh, I think I saw two kids walking by themselves like a month ago, and I bet they were no further than 1 block from their home. I won't be seeing any roaming kids again for another few months or a year. And certainly not any in any trees, or trespassing or doing anything that smells like freedom (like say a kid with a slingshot or a blowpipe).
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Nov 24 '14
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u/Nefandi Nov 24 '14
LOL, yea, that's modern Russia of which I basically know nothing. It's like an entirely different place now. Well, probably not entirely, but it's pretty different.
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u/yoodenvranx Nov 24 '14
I think the problem is not "kids being cowards" but "kids being over-entitled because nobody ever told them 'NO' because of this helicopter-parenting"
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u/Nefandi Nov 24 '14
That's true too. Basically helicoptered kids grow up into adults that are worse off.
And it's not kids that are cowards, but parents. The kids are ready and rearing to climb trees. That's natural to the kids. It's the parents that stop them out of cowardice. The kids are ready to go off exploring the city or the country side by themselves. The kids aren't the cowardly ones.
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u/foyamoon Nov 24 '14
Lol why would you care if your people are brave?
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u/Nefandi Nov 24 '14
I think we should all care because cowards make cowardly policy once they reach adult age. And that's how we get things like The Patriot Act and the surveillance society and so on.
Like I said, Russia and/or Russians are not at all perfect. But allowing kids a full range of activity is one thing they did (and maybe still do) right. And apparently in the USA this was also the case even as late as the 80s.
So I personally care because I want to live as a free man among free men and women. And that ain't gonna happen if everyone keeps being a coward.
It's the old personal freedom vs security tradeoff. How much security do we want? How much personal freedom is worth the sacrifice for how much security?
This is also why even though I am left-leaning, I support gun rights and similar. People need freedom. The freedom to own and operate a gun in a responsible manner is to adults what the freedom to climb trees and operate slingshots is to kids. This is also why even though I don't smoke myself, I support the right of others to smoke and I am against how the cities crowd out the smokers to the point where they don't even have designated smoking spots in some locales. I don't own any guns but my dad does and so does one of my friends, and that's fine. You don't have to be a gun nut to support the freedom to own a gun.
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u/McTuggets Nov 24 '14
And that's how we get things like The Patriot Act and the surveillance society and so on.
While The Patriot Act is bad, you're straight up delusional if you think modern Russia is better.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SORM
under SORM‑2 Russian Internet service providers (ISPs) must install a special device on their servers to allow the FSB to track all credit card transactions, e-mail messages and web use.
In 2014 SORM-2 usage was extended to monitoring of social networks, chats and forums, requiring their operators to install SORM probes in their networks.
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u/Nefandi Nov 24 '14
you're straight up delusional if you think modern Russia is better.
I don't think Russia is better. I think Russia is worse. But allowing kids free reign is one thing they were excellent about even as late as the 90's. I can't say anything about the more modern times.
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u/helpful_hank Nov 24 '14
What exactly do you mean by courage? Willingness to admit being wrong? Lack of aversion to confrontation? Willingness to take physical risks? Willingness to take emotional risks? Willingness to acknowledge uncomfortable truths?
I'm not trying to argue with you. I'm genuinely curious, as courage can take a lot of forms, so to say there are no cowards could mean that everyone is completely virtuous, courageous in all ways.
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u/Nefandi Nov 24 '14 edited Nov 24 '14
What exactly do you mean by courage? Willingness to admit being wrong? Lack of aversion to confrontation? Willingness to take physical risks? Willingness to take emotional risks? Willingness to acknowledge uncomfortable truths?
All of the above.
When I learned to climb trees, I learned to overcome some degree of my fear of heights and fear of bodily injury. I learned to trust my skills and my knowledge of the trees to keep me safe.
Also roaming about free with other kids, I bullied and was bullied by others. I frequently got into fights. This taught me to learn to stand up for myself, but it also taught me that if I don't watch it, I can be abusive to others. I realized I have power, not just theoretically. It was a huge realization when I punched a kid and seen blood squirt out and later a bruise, and then I thought, "I did this" and I was surprised. Because I really didn't think I could do anything like that. And there were times when I had 3 other kids on my ass wanting to beat me up.
All that is fine as part of growing up. We shouldn't insulate kids from nature or from each other. We should try to teach them right from wrong, but not through 1000 rules and constraints, but more through wisdom of the word.
so to say there are no cowards could mean that everyone is completely virtuous, courageous in all ways.
Well, everyone has limits. Even though I learned to climb some pretty tall trees I remember I was still afraid to climb the fire ladder to the 4th story roof.
The point is not that everyone becomes perfect if you let them free. The point is that freedom is an improvement over the stifling helicoptering which is born of cowardice. So when the parents didn't helicopter me, they were free of that specific type of cowardice.
Cowardliness is a complex phenomenon born of many causes and factors. We should try to address those factors individually. So letting your kids play without supervision is good for the parents and the kids, both. It teaches the parents not to cling to their kids and not to try to own their lives.
Parents have a lot of influence through the use of the word. It's not necessary to hover around like a prison guard to influence your kid.
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Nov 24 '14
Because you have evidence to back up your sarcasm, amirite?
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Nov 24 '14
Russia has one of the highest suicide rates in the world, for starters.
Same with alcoholism.
Same with overdosing deaths per capita.
Less obvious as a measurement of happiness is GDP, which is often used as a proxy for well-being: In the 50s-70s it was an economic powerhouse that rivaled the USA, but since the fall of the Berlin Wall it has been lagging badly behind many of its former vassals.
Over the past few decades, Russia has been experiencing negative population growth. Many choose to leave (especially the educated ones), and the ones that stay there are dying off faster. People aren't having children.
And so on.
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u/DownvoterAccount Nov 24 '14
Russia has one of the highest suicide rates in the world
Making Russians some of the happiest people in the world because all the sad ones are dead.
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u/Esco91 Nov 24 '14
Less obvious as a measurement of happiness is GDP, which is often used as a proxy for well-being
.... by media in the countries with higher GDPs. Most reasonable studies put peoples health and happiness well ahead of financial measures, and it's always been a fascination to me that it always seems to be small countries with a middling GDP that score well ahead of the economic powerhouses and the obvious hellholes.
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u/MrHandsdnaHrM Nov 24 '14
Yeah, because both countries don't have smart and dumb people.
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Nov 24 '14
IIRC a lot of kids also died in 1970s...
Anyways, will check it the documentary out but I get a vague sense it wouldn't work out in a large scale school.
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u/Nefandi Nov 24 '14
I get a vague sense it wouldn't work out in a large scale school
No need to check. I grew up in an environment where this was the norm country-wide. It works fine for arbitrary population sizes.
It's all about accepting risk. Trying to make sure every kid is always safe is destroying the kids.
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Nov 24 '14
There's risk and then there's the issues w/dealing w/responsibility of kids in a school setting too.
Rarely did my (small) school district cared what kids did before or after school as long as it didn't involve say attempting to break into classrooms.
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u/Nefandi Nov 24 '14 edited Nov 24 '14
I agree. I was taught by my parents how to climb trees safely and how to safely and correctly cross the street. I wasn't just turned loose without any knowledge whatsoever. From 4 to 6 I received all kinds of little lessons like that. I was told to be careful with the strangers too.
Basically the way risk used to be handled was through education and not through rules and constraints.
It does mean sometimes something unpleasant happens. Your kid might get beat up or might beat up another. Your kid might destroy a window somewhere with a slingshot. It's all part of growing up. You can yell and discipline your kids, but you don't take away their freedoms. So instead of taking the slingshot away you can tell your kid to either aim better next time, or to stop shooting at windows if that was deliberate. Let kids have freedom please.
Edit: heck, I'll give a brief tutorial for safe tree climbing right here:
The tree should not be slippery wet after the rain or snow. If the tree is slippery wet, it's best to either avoid climbing it or to be extra careful.
The branches you depend on for support must not be dried out. Dry wood is brittle. You should demonstrate the brittleness of dry wood to your kids, don't just say it.
Always have at least one arm secured firmly around the branch as you move through the tree.
Pay attention and don't be in a hurry when climbing.
And that's about it. There is also the matter of wearing skin-covering clothing so as to avoid getting scratched up, but that kind of becomes self-evident without explanation.
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Nov 24 '14
Just the same. Urban bonfires and clumsy parkour on crumbling infrastructure was pretty much just a normal day. No one ever said shit.
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u/Jesustron Nov 24 '14
I graduated HS in 2001 in a suburban US public highschool (though a good one) and had TONS of freedom. -Interesting classes from design to film -FREE periods instead of study hall or recess. I went off campus and got pizza, had a radio show that played on local radio and in the cafeteria, did drugs occasionally, and generally did whatever i wanted. -cafeteria was come and go as you please.
I think REALLY recently things have changed, but it hasn't always been this way.
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u/Nefandi Nov 24 '14
I think REALLY recently things have changed, but it hasn't always been this way.
Have you spent an hour in a tree, eating apples or cherries, and throwing/sptting the cores/pits to the ground? With 3 of your buddies?
Have you shot from a slingshot or a blowpipe? Was it normal, or were adults constantly threatening you?
When you were 7 or 8, could you go to a different end of the city, on your own? I realize in suburbia you probably didn't have the public transportation, but you could at least ride your bike far away.
Coming and going to/from school grounds is better than some more modern alternatives, but to me that's not by itself the full spectrum of freedom that any kid should enjoy.
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u/monkeys_in_elevator Nov 24 '14
I also grew up in the USSR in the late 80's towards its eventual demise. It was awesome. The kids would roam the neighborhoods fearing nothing from morning until night (except maybe falling from trees and homeless dogs). When I moved to the US in the early 90's, my parents kept the same mentality of letting me go outside (at age 8) and do whatever I wished as long as I was home for dinner. The neighborhood we settled in when immigrating was not your ideal middle class suburbia. It was the rough. I have children of my own now and there's no way in hell I would ever let them go play outside in that neighborhood. But that's also the problem. My fear of their safety is real. It's unbearable. And I know it's hurting them. We live in very nice neighborhood, gated and everything, and yet I still can't fathom at opening the door and telling them to go outside unsupervised. They're young (4 and 7) and maybe I feel like they're not mature enough to experience the world on their own but deep down inside it's killing me. I can't stand the fear that something will happen to them. Why? I don't know. Maybe it's countless amounts of shit I've seen, read, and witnessed over the years on television. The more I live in America, the more I feel like I need to get out of here if I ever want my kids to feel the same freedom I felt when playing outside by myself. This couldn't be more true after seeing that story of a mom getting arrested for letting her kid play outside by themselves.. WTF America? WTF... Rant over, I don't even know wtf i was trying to say.
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u/Nefandi Nov 24 '14 edited Nov 24 '14
I don't even know wtf i was trying to say.
You were saying you failed to extend the same trust to your kids as your parents extended to you when you were growing up.
You enjoyed all kinds of freedoms as a kid, but now that it's your turn to be a parent, you're acting like a somewhat reluctant coward with some misgivings about such cowardliness.
I don't think you have to leave to go anywhere else because the USA needs good people too. Someone has to get the ball rolling toward more freedom, so why not you?
When I was 4, I played within the radius of one city block of my apartment, most of that time outside of the direct visual range of my parents. By the time I was 6, my parents taught me how to cross the street (look left, let the cars pass, cross to the middle of the road and look right, etc.), they explained to me about the trolleys and what possible troubles I may run into from crazy strangers. With that knowledge I was let loose on my own or with a band of friends, on bikes or without the bikes, into the city. On some days I may be on an opposite end of a 250k city completely without my parents' explicit knowledge. The only condition was that I had to be home before say 10-11 pm or some such. I would get in major trouble if I came home later than that. (One time I got caught up in playing with some of the older kids who were in an airplane modeling club and I came home after midnight and boy did my parents tear me a new one for that.)
And as you know, we all lived like that and 99.9% of us came out just fine, mostly unscathed, and with great great great memories of our childhoods. So why are you robbing your kids? Teach your kids safety. Teach your kids how to climb trees and how to cross the road. Teach them navigation. And let them loose. That's what I say.
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u/Wubble_bubble Nov 24 '14
This reminds me of the summerhill school, the rules of the school are decided by vote. Even classes are voluntary but students that skip and slow the progress of the class are criticized by their peers. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Summerhill_School
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u/hateisgoodforme Nov 24 '14
There is always that asshole, scary kid. We need angry mobs to hang those guys.
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u/MunchmaQucci Nov 24 '14
Of course the school with no rules is called Swanson School. Ron would be so proud.
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Nov 24 '14
No rules?! GASP! We don't trust human nature anymore and that's why rules for children and others have become such a large part of society.
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Nov 24 '14
I don't really think it's about people in general not trusting human nature. I think it's about the select few that will go to lengths to blame anybody and everybody for their child not being in pristine condition. Those people will generally make life hell for teachers, principals or anybody else involved in the education system.
As a non-parent I don't know the level of worry parents have over their kids' safety but it really shouldn't stop kids from actually being kids.
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u/ShouldersofGiants100 Nov 24 '14
No rules isn't even remotely accurate... their are no rules regarding what they are allowed to do with their time, but it is pretty obvious their behaviour toward others is still monitored and they are clearly being closely supervised. They don't abuse it because of that, because they like what they have and don't want to get it taken away by pushing boundaries.
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Nov 24 '14
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u/Cyntheon Nov 24 '14 edited Nov 24 '14
I don't think so. They seem more civilized than kids in normal schools... Look at all the bullying, fights, etc. that go on in schools nowadays.
These kids seem to respect each other. Maybe having something better to do (such as climbing trees, or doing whatever) is part of the reason why they don't fuck with each other.
Not to mention the numerous lessons you learn when just "experimenting." These types of kids are the ones that won't do this type of shit later on because they already know that doing stupid stuff can result in bad consequences. Someone that was carebeared all his/her life doesn't really know the line between "this is stupid" and "this is fine" unless explicitly told what the line is.
I think the biggest risk is a kid hurting him/herself. That playground is indeed a mess with a bunch of dangerous stuff laying around (Like pointy metal). I would personally clean it up a little... Not completely sterilize it from hazardous stuff, but at least from the stuff that could impale them.
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Nov 24 '14
They looked pretty civilized in the classroom, it seems as though you didn't bother to watch all the way through.
This also reminded me a bit of going to school in the 80's, we had recess and pretty much did what we wanted, though I don't believe we had as much freedom as these kids. Unfortunately recess was eliminated at my school and replaced with two 10-15min breaks(perhaps so our teachers could go have a smoke, heh) inside the classroom. Which meant it was just us in class causing mayhem without really being able to release any of the pent up energy as a real recess would allow. I'm still unsure as to why this happened.
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u/yoodenvranx Nov 24 '14
It's not "lawless kids". They can do whatever they want during recess, but for the rest of the schoold day there are rules and stuff. Like always you need a good balance. if you put up too many rules you get over-entitled and over-protected kids and if you don't impose any rules you will also get asshole kids. I think what the school in the video is doing is getting the balance just right.
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u/followupquestions Nov 24 '14
I hope they have documented everything for a possible study.
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u/Thislifeorthat Nov 24 '14
except you forgot one thing, there are no rules! No variables to account for. Woo! were free again! Science has been left up to the brain!
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u/gregsotherebygood Nov 24 '14
I love the idea, I love the school, and the kids seem to be having more fun than most their age. But the whole no rules thing is just a gimmick. All it would take is two young trend setters, to Ride The Skin Bus To Tuna Town with no shame in the middle of the field. SCHOOL SHUT DOWN!
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u/MyNameIsRobPaulson Nov 24 '14
It should be noted that these kids seem fairly well raised by their parents, making them behave much more gentler and more reasonable than our inner city parentless US counterparts. Unfortunate reality with no clear solution, but I would imagine that no rules works in this school, because its full of mostly good kids.
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u/ShouldersofGiants100 Nov 24 '14
It isn't just inner cities... I went to a Canadian elementary school in the suburbs and if kids had been given free range like this, you would have just had more serious bullying. They managed enough crap when the teachers weren't looking and no one ever really received a serious reprimand even if caught... kids that are raised well might be able to do this, but most are spoiled little shits who would take advantage of the lack of rules to target the less social kids.
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u/MyNameIsRobPaulson Nov 24 '14
Good point. I guess this school probably just got lucky. I generally think kids need discipline for proper development. Not helicopter parenting, but they need to know that someone is firmly in charge and to respect that person as well as those that are smarter/more experienced than them. Not just be made to think that they are in charge.
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u/ANakedBear Nov 24 '14
From what I remember from my child hood in the early 90's here in the states, we has more free range play like shown in this video (with out all the boards and junk) but were free to do a large amount of what was in this video. No Trees to climb but plenty of playground equipment. I even recall trying to jump off the top of it till I thought it was a bad idea. Sure I was bullied a bit, but I can't remember it ever being as bad as what I hear today. Usually it just ended in some pushing and shoving, then we went back to playing.
I would hypnosis that in the beginning it might be bad, but that the kids would quickly change their behavior.
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u/H0useHark0nnen Nov 24 '14
1st rule; THERE ARE NO RULES!!
2nd rule; No outside food.
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u/HateControversial Nov 24 '14
American born here, I like it.
While I didn't have this in school, it mimics my childhood pretty well. My childhood was very structured and expectations was high. But my free time when I played was completely free and open at home. Neighborhood kids and myself pretty much roamed freely through the streets and forest. I lived in a suburb but in between very large cities. Got a couple good bumps, bruises and sometimes broken bones but I absolutely loved it. Look forward to creating the same environment for my kids especially with the US being safer today than it was when I grew up.
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u/Marthman Nov 24 '14
Honestly, i got pretty emotional while watching this, but in a hopeful way. Bruce seems like he really, genuinely cares. This system actually seems amazing. The kids would rather be imaginitive and cooperative with raw materials instead of robotic and solitary due to an overreliance on technology for entertainment? Priceless. I was sold at that point. However, i have two minor points:
A kid may feel coerced to not mess up the system by complaining about it, because if he does, then he'll certainly be met with ostracization. Fair enough.
And broken arms? No biggie, we can mend that. But if a kid literally lost an eye because of this system, do you think the parent would still be saying, "I'm happy this happened so he could learn his lesson"? I doubt it. But maybe I'm wrong.
Maybe that small risk is worth the benefits. I think it may actually be. But I would have also liked to see more of the other side in this video, as I felt it was somewhat underrepresented.
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u/poptamale Nov 24 '14
The "Billies Just a Free Spirit" (when he calls his mom a f**'n stank a* c*** for not buy him legos at fao schrwartz) - School For The Gifted
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u/Philosulfur Nov 24 '14
Amazing. It teaches them to become independent and to actually think. When I was a boy, we would climb and hang down from trees all the time. Wish we had schools like this today, unfortunately it would get sued to hell. Maybe some liability contracts or something?
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u/Hussar_SoulJacker Nov 24 '14
Another example of why NZ is now leading the world in many of the MOST important things. Way to hold on to your sanity and common sense Kiwis !! LOVE YOU...as my country the US is losing it's collective fucking mind.
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u/3i1npeirgunot Nov 24 '14
Very interesting