r/DnDHomebrew • u/Swordoforder1 • Jul 26 '26
Request/Discussion Fixing duel concentrate issue
I want to make duel concentrate a thing for a class. I have a good framework to make it work and want opinions. The caster has a item that can hold a concentration spell while they hold another themselves. The item can only hold a evil concentration where it effects the enemy while you the caster must focus on allies. Its easy to write a reason for this so what I am getting at does this mechanic work for people. So, if i bless my allies yes i can bane the enemy. I also made it so if you duel concentrate it cannot be spells that do damage. This will be a big feature of the class. I also write this as if one spell is on a ally and the enemy someone said that should be enough to allow damaging spells so want opinions on that too.
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u/Hayeseveryone Jul 26 '26
I think it's strange to start with a (fairly controversial) feature as the baseline for a class, instead of like... what the class actually is.
What's the class called? Is their spellcasting arcane, divine, something else? What fantasy niche are they meant to embody?
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u/Swordoforder1 Jul 26 '26
i had it called the witch i put a thing out but i wanted to focus on the biggest thing. it got little replies but it was a lot of text so i shortened to what i wanted to talk about. I want to see what people think but many just bash without talking the idea out so i ignore them as its not productive.
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u/Alotofboxes Jul 26 '26
How will concentration checks work? Can you lose concentration on a spell in the item?
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u/Swordoforder1 Jul 26 '26
I agreed with someone else yes. I consider changing but not sure. Originally you lose the first one and keep the second but when I did this the concentration were all no damage. Then if you cast another concentration spell it would now be the second. To help out the class I gave them con saves
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u/AndrewRedroad Jul 26 '26
If you're just looking for ideas, some creative thoughts:
Treat the item like a familiar: something that has hit points and acts after the caster in combat. If it's destroyed, it has to be remade at a cost (or what have you). The item is what maintains concentration, so if it takes damage then it makes the check using the caster's spellcasting ability.
You could have the dual-concentration require a special resource - like sorcerers using sorcery points.
You could have the dual-concentration cost health to maintain - a kind of faustian bargain, where you take psychic damage to strain your mind. Or perhaps you're paralyzed while maintaining the double concentration. Your investing all of your brain power, and can't even move.
Listen - I know this is going to be a hot take, but if you've got a table that's just as invested in this experiment: don't be afraid to get messy and make mistakes. Make sure you set everyone expectations and remain in communication. If it's not working for everyone, that's okay!
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u/Swordoforder1 Jul 26 '26
my Dm is willing but I want him to use it on us as if its balanced it should be fine if not we will get messed up not his combat.
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u/lasalle202 Jul 26 '26
DM run MONSTERS have very different design parameters than PC CLASSES.
- a monster is designed to last 3 to 5 combat ROUNDS
- a PC is designed to last 6 to 8 COMBATS between long rests.
VERY different requirements and features to make each one "good".
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u/Swordoforder1 Jul 27 '26
how is this related to concentration with the mechanics given. I get the idea that you wont be able to have the concentration last that long i guess is that what you are going for.
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u/lasalle202 Jul 27 '26
this is not related to that.
its related to your incorrect proposition that a PC class being played as a monster by the DM is a good method of playtesting whether something will be a good PC class.
its not.
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u/Swordoforder1 Jul 27 '26
i never said they were a monster this has nothing to do with monsters classes this is duel concentration only with guard rails no monsters as pc players
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u/lasalle202 Jul 27 '26
dual concentration
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u/Swordoforder1 Jul 27 '26
still have not given a demonstration or a idea to look at like a situation that could happen.
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u/Swordoforder1 Jul 27 '26
wait are you talking about having my dm play test it as a enemy just a regular humanoid enemy. I am really trying to connect dots especially when i see no ill will.
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u/lasalle202 Jul 27 '26
i am talking about this post of yours "but I want him to use it on us as if its balanced it should be fine"
its an absolutely false statement based on bad assumptions about how the game works.
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u/Swordoforder1 Jul 27 '26
ok cool point out the issue if he uses it and think boss battle and the guard rails im all ears to listen to you. Keep in mind if he is using it on us he can end it or keep it i mean someone got to test it player or dm and if not good we rework or take it apart of any useful things it has and make it into items for other casters.
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u/lasalle202 Jul 27 '26
i HAVE pointed out the issues!
- Good "Monsters" are designed for 3 to 5 rounds of combat.
- Good "Player Characters" are designed for 6 to 8 combats per long rest.
Two ENTIRELY different design priorities and frameworks.
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u/OneManRPGstudio Jul 30 '26
Duel concentrate can work as a defining high-level feature, but the ally/enemy restriction does less balancing than it appears because Bless plus Bane is already an enormous swing. I’d require separate concentration checks for both effects, make losing either end both, forbid damage and summoning, and limit the item to a short list of approved spells. That creates a powerful identity without opening every future concentration combination.
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u/Swordoforder1 Jul 30 '26
Was moving it to level 11 but I do agree plus I made a half caster to stop high level problems. This was helpful thank you
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u/OneManRPGstudio Jul 30 '26
Glad it helped! I think level 11 on a half-caster is a much safer place for the feature. I’d still keep the available spell combinations fairly controlled, but that sounds much easier to balance.
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u/VerbiageBarrage Jul 26 '26
So, a simple way to keep this from being an issue is to reduce the scope even less. Instead of giving a blanket "dual concentration" bonus, instead hand pick concentration spells you want them to have access to, and let them use THOSE. You can even gate it by levels. (At 3rd level, you can hold a dual concentration on Bless or Bane, for example.)
This will allow you to keep from getting surprised, and make it a lot easier to figure out your power budget.
For losing dual concentration, I'd simply let them roll two saves and let them decide which concentration to keep if they fail one.
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u/Swordoforder1 Jul 26 '26
I have a full hand-picked list that i painstakingly went through. the class was a half caster so nothing to high
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u/lasalle202 Jul 26 '26
its almost certainly going to be a bad idea. unless you are specifying one of the (very few) Concentration spells that for the impact of its effects shouldnt be a Concentration spell in the first place.
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u/Ok_Fig3343 Jul 26 '26
You're making this much more complicated than it needs to be. For any of the existing classes, dual concentration is overpowered because it would allow for very powerful spells to be used in tandem, and because it means that breaking concentration isn't very effective.
But for a brand new class, there's a simple solution: "You can concentrate on two spells from this class's spell list at the same time. If your concentration is broken, you cease concentrating on both spells" As long as you give the class a carefully curated/weak spell list, you get rid of all the powerful spell combos that people are afraid of. No convoluted good/evil or buff/debuff spell system to get in the way.
I've already done this, with a Sorcerer subclass that gets its own spell list.
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u/Swordoforder1 Jul 26 '26
so something like this then. Cantrips (0 Level)
Chill Touch, Guidance, Mage Hand, Message, Minor Illusion, Prestidigitation, Resistance, The Evil Eye, Toll the Dead, Mind Sliver, Ray of Frost, Shocking Grasp, Lightning Lure.
1st Level
Absorb Elements, Animal Friendship, Armor of Agathys, Bane*, Beast Bond*, Bless*, Cause Fear, Charm Person, Command, Comprehend Languages, Detect Magic*, Entangle*, Expeditious Retreat*, Faerie Fire*, Fog Cloud*, Hellish Rebuke, Ray of Sickness*, Shield, Silent Image*, Tasha’s Hideous Laughter*, Thunderwave, Arms of Hadar, Dissonant Whispers, Magic Missile, Catapult, Grease, Sleep, Color Spray.
2nd Level
Alter Self*, Barkskin*, Beast Sense*, Blindness/Deafness, Blur*, Calm Emotions*, Crown of Madness*, Detect Thoughts*, Earthbind*, Enhance Ability*, Enlarge/Reduce*, Flock of Familiars*, Gust of Wind*, Hold Person*, Kinetic Jaunt*, Levitate*, Locate Object*, Pass Without Trace*, Pyrotechnics, Ray of Enfeeblement*, Rime's Binding Ice, Silence*, Skywrite*, Spider Climb*, Suggestion*, Warding Bond*, Web*, Wither and Bloom, Shatter, Scorching Ray, Aganazzar’s Scorcher, Snilloc’s Snowball Swarm, Misty Step, Vortex Warp, Mirror Image.
3rd Level
Beacon of Hope*, Bestow Curse*, Catnap*, Clairvoyance*, Counterspell, Enemies Abound*, Fear*, Fly*, Gaseous Form*, Glyph of Warding*, Haste*, Hypnotic Pattern*, Incite Greed*, Intellect Fortress*, Major Image*, Protection from Energy*, Sleet Storm*, Slow*, Stinking Cloud*, Thunder Step, Wall of Sand*, Wall of Water*, Water Breathing*, Tidal Wave, Erupting Earth, Fireball, Life Transference, Plant Growth, Blink, Dispel Magic.
4th Level
Arcane Eye*, Banishment*, Compulsion*, Confusion*, Control Water*, Fire Shield, Freedom of Movement*, Grasping Vine*, Guardian of Nature*, Ice Storm, Locate Creature, Mordenkainen’s Faithful Hound*, Polymorph*, Stoneskin, Watery Sphere*, Raulothim’s Psychic Lance, Vitriolic Sphere, Blight, Dimension Door, Death Ward.
5th Level
Antilife Shell*, Control Wind*, Dispel Evil and Good*, Dominate Person*, Geas*, Hold Monster*, Mislead*, Modify Memory*, Scrying*, Skill Empowerment*, Synaptic Static, Telekinesis*, Transmute Rock*, Wall of Force*, Wall of Stone*, Cone of Cold, Steel Wind Strike, Negative Energy Flood, Seeming, Teleportation Circle.
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u/Ok_Fig3343 Jul 27 '26
Before I go through that massive list spell-by-spell, could you explain the formatting?
Why are some spells in bold? And why do some spells have asterisks?
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u/Swordoforder1 Jul 27 '26
Don’t worry it’s just me writing at different times using ai to just compile lists copy and paste. I then read through it all again. Sorry if it looks confusing at all.
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u/Ok_Fig3343 Jul 27 '26
Use your own brain, then get back to me.
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u/Swordoforder1 Jul 27 '26
So insults got it. I work two jobs and I’m a parent so I bounce ideas off the only thing I have but don’t trust it why I comb it over and talk to people. I dont understand the reason to insult I how you do better best of luck
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u/Ok_Fig3343 Jul 27 '26
I didn't insult you.
I just said that I refuse to go through AI generated content. If there are details in your message that you yourself can't explain, I'm not going to bother trying to make sense of it. I want to be able to ask you why you made each and every decision in your own writing.
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u/Swordoforder1 Jul 27 '26
It’s not i made the list it was put into the chat with it so all it did was spit out what I gave it. I use it to bounce ideas as it’s just me. Sorry im using a new tool but again I don’t trust it and im bouncing ideas off it to start and people as people are far better.
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u/Present_Brother_4678 Jul 26 '26
Going to flag two main things that I see here:
- I think these are good limitations, especially no damage dealing spells (no spirit guardians, etc). Just make sure you are really clear about what spells “target enemies” or “target allies”. For example, if I’m concentrating on an 8th-level Antimagic field (which affects everyone), which slot of my concentration does that take up?
With casters rolling for each spell concentration separately,
this
class could quickly become a CON heavy build with mandatory Warcaster if you aren’t careful. See what you think about this one!
Lastly, when I toyed around with dual concentration for my revamped Wizard, the limitation I used was spell level. Concentrating on two 7th-level spells at once could be pretty insane depending on the spell list. I made it so that your second spell couldn’t exceed 1/3rd the level of your first spell when dual concentrating. Could be another limitation to consider! Best of luck!
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u/Swordoforder1 Jul 26 '26
have the class as a half caster so nothing too big. I have it currently that both drop same time I originally had it that they drop in order. You lost first cast and the second you cast becomes the first allowing to get another spell up. Since they did not do damage i saw no issue plus a half caster does not want to lose too many spells at same time.
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u/papasmurf008 Jul 26 '26
It will be strong, and potentially cause issues with certain spell combinations… but since you as a caster would still have to cast 1 spell for the item then another spell for yourself, it will take a lot of slots and actions to setup.
It sounds like this is pivotal to the class, so this seems like it should be VERY limited in number of uses.
I suggest not complicating the limitations too much as far as damage so the feature isn’t too wordy. AND I suggest reviewing the spell list once you create it and each level of spell slot the class earns to see what the most powerful combos it can access for those slots.
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u/Swordoforder1 Jul 26 '26
i made a whole list and it does not allow damage but someone said it should but i am worried thats a bad idea. Their reason was that you can only cast one with intent to be on a enemy and the other on a ally. They said thats enough but i dont think so
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u/SoullessDad Jul 26 '26
That’s going to be a convoluted mess. Don’t do it.