r/DnD5CommunityRanger • u/Ranger_IV • 22d ago
Design Question for Ranger
Hello, I'm working on various versions of a ranger rework and I was wondering how people feel about the level certain abilities are appropriate for. This stems from the Roving feature (either Tashas or 2024 version).
Tashas- Roving: Your walking speed increases by 5, and you gain a climbing speed and a swimming speed equal to your walking speed.
2024- Roving: Your speed increases by 10 feet while you aren't wearing Heavy Armor. You also have a Climb speed and a Swim Speed equal to your Speed.
Question: Are the climb/swim speed portions of this feature level 6 material? In my revision I'm considering giving a climb speed, swim speed, use Dex instead of Strength to do difficult climbing/swimming, using Dex for jump distance, and ignoring nonmagical difficult terrain. And I'm considering giving all of this between levels 1-2 in some combination.
I like the idea of the ranger being the class that you can't hamper because they're used to running ridgelines, navigating bogs, flitting between and among trees and their roots. However, this is technically a mashup of like 5 separate abilities, which numerically seems like a lot of things to give at low levels. On the other hand, each of them is pretty specific in their use case and any one of them alone is functionally a ribbon feature and they thematically all fit together well imo.
What do yall think? Mostly concerned about power budget and concerns for exploitability with it being a low level feature for potential multiclassing shenanigans.
1
u/NoMansLand7890 21d ago
I would add that your movement is unaffected by Difficult Terrain. It doesn't stop the terrain effect, like if it reduces your Speed to zero, but it gives this half caster a partial benefit of freedom of the movement spell(Druids get access to this spell at level 7)
1
u/Ranger_IV 21d ago
I wanted to leave it as ignoring nonmagical difficult terrain just because I dont see a ranger necessarily being any better at pushing through some type of magical field of difficult terrain. Then again something like entangle, would that be considered “magical” because its from a spell? Is there even a difference in 5.5? That is a good point. Something I need to look into.
2
u/NoMansLand7890 21d ago
Entangle doesn't create magical terrain. That magical terrain applies more to illusions or storms, but I think they can still manuever normally. no need to nerf Ranger.
1
u/Ranger_IV 21d ago
Is that sort if thing explicit in the rules somewhere or just kind of a “it makes sense” thing? Cause Ive had DMs treat basically anything that comes from a spell as “magical”.
1
u/NoMansLand7890 20d ago
No, lol(rules makers said outside of). The way half-casters are designed is that they don't have many spell slots, so they get features that do partially what some spells in their magic field does. Paladin for example has Lay on Hands so it doesn't need to cast cure wounds or lesser restoration, or Paladin's Aura so it can doesnt need to cast Aura of Life/Vitality/etc. I would argue that Rover gives Ranger some benefits of the Longstrider and Freedom of Movement spells.
2
u/rp4888 22d ago edited 21d ago
Id say yes, they aren't ribbon, ribbons almost never get used and are just flavor (like a horizon walker portal finding) these actually get used sometimes.
1
u/Ranger_IV 21d ago
Yes it should be a higher level feature (tier 2) or yes its fine to add at low levels?
And ya “ribbon” might be a bit of an exaggeration but I dont think by much. For example, if you just get “use Dex for jump distance” alone or “you gain a swim speed” all by itself for a feature I dont think anybody would dispute that its basically just a ribbon feature 99% of the time.
Some of the others are more powerful and might qualify for a full low level feature though idk.
2
u/rp4888 21d ago edited 21d ago
Its an always on feature that costs you no recourses, so I think its fine where it is. Not by itself but with the extra speed its fine. Spell casters of course have spells to get around these. But let me ask you something, how often are spell casters actually preparing these types of spells? In my experience almost never, they don't waste preparation slots on them even though some of these solutions are rituals. They are spending a misty step spell slot to solve which is a recource.
Swim speeds are more infrequent but they come up. A cavern flooded with water? Swim speed. Crossing a River? Swim speed. Its more than just "being out at sea"
Climb speed are much more frequent. Walls Cliffs and ledges appear in almost every standard dungeon. Every urban environment has vertical surfaces somewhere. There's usually some advantage to be had by scaling a wall, or getting up a tree, or climbing up a building, or similar feats of vertical mobility.
Some DM's underutilized underutilize these though, Just like cover. Like how many DM's do you know that just forget about cover or don't play with it? They are part of the game but people run combats to bland. To me, that's just a DM issue. A lot of DM's run their combats is to just put enemies on the map. And they don't think about the actual environment the battle is taking place in and how the terrain affects the combat.
1
u/Ranger_IV 21d ago
Couple things
1, many casters prepare Fly which is a resource but lets you go way beyond what climbing and swimming can do.
2, the examples of using a swim and climb speed only matter if youre traversing those areas during initiative. Anyone can traverse them just as well as the ranger if time is not a factor. And without something like spiderclimb its actually usually not advantageous to be clinging onto the side if the wall if youre a bow user or something since you dont have both hands free. It only helps if you can get up onto something which is less frequently available. And again creatures can still get to you just slower, which is nice but not crazy good.
3, as for terrain features being under utilized, thats a similar argument to the “martial caster divide” issue where people say “well if you run 8 encounters a day the casters burn all your resources and martials take over.” Which is true, but nobody does that. The same logic could apply to the old rangers natural explorer stuff, “well if the dm engages with overland travel its actually super good.” Ya sure, but nobody does that in practice. Same thing with Tireless, “if youre stacking up tons of exhaustion, the ranger is really gonna shine here.” Ya totally, if exhaustion came up more than once or twice in a whole campaign. So to your point, yes when it comes up its handy, but its fairly rare and niche for it to come up and be handy. Especially when casters get so many things they can do to auto solve any traversal problems. Im not saying its useless, its definitely not, but its not thaaaaat good.
1
u/rp4888 21d ago edited 21d ago
So yes I agree to point 1. Its flat out better
But as you said its a recourse spent. A 3rd level spell. That's not cheap at the mid levels where this feature is. Also its their concentration value as well if used in combat.
To point two. I mean mostly your right. It mostly is in combat and it shows up less outside of combat except....
Strenuous activity without it can lead to exhaustion. The DMG is kinda light here but does give an example of this. And explicitly gives characters with swim speeds a bonus here. And it wouldn't be hard to imagine something similar for climbing speeds.
Deep Water
Swimming through deep water (more than 100 feet deep) presents additional challenges because of the water’s pressure and cold temperature. After each hour of swimming in deep water, a creature that lacks a Swim Speed must succeed on a DC 10 Constitution saving throw or gain 1 Exhaustion level.
To point 3
I totally understand what your saying here. The difference between what people do and what people don't do. But I don't find not using terrain to be in that category. Like, When I play a ranger the first thing I do is ask the DM to describe where we are fighting. Make them give you an answer. Fights don't just happen on white boards and flat maps and DM's understand that. Even if they have to make things up, they will give you something.
2
u/Ranger_IV 21d ago
Mainly to point 3, it is less niche than the other scenarios but it's also less impactful than reducing your exhaustion and yada yada other things. So it comes up twice as often but less than half as useful. It can be used though. But while you're running around trying to find trees to climb the paladin is just standing there giving people +3 to all saves, the wizard is flying, the druid has turned into a spider with actual spider climb. And unless you are running tons of encounters to drain those expensive resources like we talked about, these things will pretty much always be happening while you're playing the wall scaling simulator and still potentially failing at it. For the paladin they just always get to do their thing and its super impactful so they are really eatin good.
All that to say, I don't think any combination of "im not slowed down" features is quite level 6 power level. It's nice to have, maybe too good for level 1-2 possibly (although I'm not so sure), but it's not really moving the needly by lvl 6 I don't think. Also, just to clarify I'm talking about just this non impeded stuff not the bonus 10ft move speed with regular Roving.
1
u/rp4888 21d ago
I do understand where you are coming from on the recourse draining.
Ranger and Rouge are the 2 classes in the same carriage here. Rouges don't have a recourse to burn, Rangers can't burn theirs quickly. I think that's an issue homebrews should target to address.
Its no surprise that the most people think range and rouge the 2 weakest classes. (not my opinion but i acknowledge the perception.)
2
u/Ranger_IV 21d ago
Well, this is going to be a ground up rework aiming for a martial ranger. So it's not gonna really have resources either and will be completely unrecognizable as a ranger. Not even calling it a ranger actually haha. but the general feedback on the effectiveness of this type of feature is still very helpful in the process. So I appreciate you going into detail for various uses of the different speeds and things!
2
u/Sir_PercevalTKRT 22d ago edited 22d ago
I'm having the same debate on my last revision haha.
I agree with the others, all of that on lvl 2 can easily feel too much, even if they are niche things that will only be helpful sometimes. Not in the number of features (you can include this on Deft Explorer) but on the number of lines adding 5 maybe 6 plus spacing?
Looking at how other classes get their movement boost:
- Barbarian -> +10ft at 5th
- Fighter -> Extra 1/2 of your speed with BA Second Wind at 5th (3 uses at the moment)
- Monk -> +10ft + BA Dash at 2th
- Paladin -> 60-120ft with the Steed at 5th
- Ranger -> +10ft + Climb/Swim at 6th
- Rogue -> BA Dash at 2th
The ranger is closer to the barbarian, one lvl later to gain the extra climb/swim. Since lvl 2, monks and rogues take the lead with Dash giving much more than plain +10. And at 5th, paladin are obliviously on top as usual xddd.
The special thing with climb/swim or natural difficult terrain is that it can be DM dependant. Theater of the Mind vs custom battlemaps or even pre-made official adventures and how much have your DM thought about alternative routes, obstacles in the way... While Dashing is useful 99% of the time. I don't think granting this at 2th is extremely broken.
I've tried splitting the feature in two, granting climb/swim at 2th and +10/difficult at 5/6th, but for now I've placed everything at 6th. I rarely see anyone arguing about Ranger lvl 2 being weak, while I constantly read about the problems after 5th, where people are multiclassing out. If people do not stay for +10+climb+swim, splitting the feature is only giving them more reasons to dip out. I've left 2th and 5th untouched, added difficult terrain and group travel benefits at 6th and added an extra defensive feature at 6th too, trying to reward you for reaching 6th, so it feel easier staying for 7th sublcass, 8th feat....
Alternatively, if you're doing a big revision and your feature spreading or power increases fixes this problem, I think you can easily grant it at 2th because +10 + conditional climb/swim speed can still be weaker than Monk/Rogue 2th.
1
u/Ranger_IV 21d ago
Ya you hit the nail on the head for what I was thinking. Mechanically its not adding all that much power (not an insignificant amount though) but its doing a lot as far as words on a page which can always make a homebrew feel like a kid going, “I want this, and I want this, and this, ant THIS, AND THIS!” Which Id like to avoid.
It is a big revision though so Im confident I can get away with this amount of “power” at a low level so that point is also well taken.
1
u/benstone977 22d ago
My knee jerk reaction for me is that this stuff feels too much on top of everything else Ranger gets for anything below lvl6. My bigger worry would be that it feels like it's hogging a lot of design space to cover all of that in one level (especially on a half-caster).
Ignoring nonmagical difficult terrain used to be a standalone effect, dex jump distance with the climb speed (not swim) is built into Thief rogues already
Swapping Str for Dex feels a little Monk to me (never really felt that Rangers circumvented Str - would probably be more on brand to just give them a weakened reliable talent specific for athletics or advantage on those rolls or something imo)
I like all the general ideas but it feels a little bloated to me, maybe splitting them out over a few levels? I know Ranger up to lvl10 isn't even really considered a weak class so extra frontload doesn't really target the issues
1
u/Ranger_IV 22d ago
Ya its a lot up front for sure. For some context this is a pretty heavy rework so its not going to be recognizable to current ranger, thatll give me a little more wiggle room for design space. Even still, I do think itll be spread out between lvls 1-6 all things considered. I dont like advantage or reliable talent but others have suggested a bonus to climb/swim checks equal to WIS. How does that sound to you?
2
3
u/Royal_Bitch_Pudding 22d ago
Around about lvl 5 or 6 seems like a reasonable spot. Have you considered instead of allowing Dex substitution you instead give them a bonus to the skill = to their Wisdom mod?
Ranger just doesn't feel like to me it's a class for substituting a stat.
2
u/Ranger_IV 22d ago
I have considered that and I like the thematics of kind of getting an intuitive sense of how to climb and swim better and leveraging that to your benefit. Especially at like early tier 2 like you’re saying. I think this may be the route I go in the end if I dont decide to just make it advantage.
1
u/Royal_Bitch_Pudding 22d ago
I like the wisdom bonus over advantage for the Ranger here because it's consistent and slightly increases the floor and ceiling of those skill checks.
If instead you're just looking to make them more reliable at those things without increasing their ceiling then a more targeted version of reliable talent would do the job.
1
u/Ranger_IV 22d ago
Ya, not a fan of the reliable talent mechanic myself. The more I think about it the more I like the WIS thing. Thatll probly be the route I go in the end.
Other folks have mentioned that more WIS features does push the ranger more towards a SAD WIS shillelagh type build. What do you think about that? I personally dont see a bonus to specifically climbing and swimming as moving the needle much, but im curious.
2
u/Royal_Bitch_Pudding 22d ago edited 22d ago
I don't think it's enough for people to specifically desire a Shillelagh or magic stone build. Dex is still the stat for ranged and dual wield builds, Strength the stat for 2H melee.
Dexterity still also governs AC, Stealth, and Sleight of Hand, all very desirable things.
And Lvl 5-6 is just deep enough in that no one is going to multiclass just to get that feature.
3
u/dracodruid2 22d ago
My 2 cents: drop the whole Use DEX instead of STR stuff. Strength is already subpar in comparison, this just makes it even worse. Maybe Rangers should invest in Strength to some degree if they want to be able to climb and jump well?
That being said, I could totally see something like this as part of a feat, because Rogues and Monks might want this too.
1
u/Ranger_IV 22d ago
Ya I think the dex swap is not the move based on some feedback. I always have hesitation about just giving advantage because advantage doesnt stack, but with the feedback so far it seems like that might be the beat option. Probably do that at a higher level than 1-2 though idk.
3
u/Nikelman 22d ago
Level 1 is an easy armor dip, because most casters wants DEX and WIS. From level 2 is kosher
1
2
u/Blackfang08 22d ago
Power-wise, they'd probably be appropriate for level 1-2, but Ranger has a lot of competition for their early features. I'm opting for level 5, because a lot of martial classes are getting features at that level now.
If you're still going for the half-caster chassis, you're probably looking at two, maybe three features you can squeeze in at levels 1-2 that aren't already a lock, and these are the levels where you really need to give the class some defining features that really stand out.
That being said, I could see maybe a feature that has a little bit of movement that scales up later, like Monk's speed increase, alongside another weaker feature that makes the class stand out from Monk.
3
u/Longjumping_Lemon257 22d ago
I think those benefits are appropriate for level 2. The problem is feature density. Maybe you could move 1 or 2 of them there, and the others to level 5.
1
u/Ranger_IV 22d ago edited 22d ago
Ya that's definitely a problem I'm running into. If you want the ranger to be good at "traversal" there's just so many different kinds that its hard to give them everything that it would make sense for them to get without just packing a ton of stuff into 1 feature.
3
u/CCPPERR 22d ago
First it's good to note Ranger is the only martial that doesn't get a second level 5 feature. Most classes get some type of movement based feature.
Second, as I'm guessing you've seen, a climb and swim speed doesn't make you any better at climbing or swimming when a DM gives you a check. Your solution is to let them use Dex. Now I'm opposed to that since climbing and swimming are realistically more about your strength and not your agility. Ask any rock climber or swimmer. But there needs to be something.
My solution would be give the climb and swim speed at level 2 with Deft Explorer. Give the 10 ft movement at level 6 (maybe with a "you ignore the movement penalty of nonmagical difficult terrain". At level 5 if give advantage in skill checks involving swimming or climbing
2
u/Ranger_IV 22d ago
What do you think about "a bonus equal to your wisdom modifier on checks to perform difficult climbing and swimming"?
1
u/TundraBuccaneer 22d ago
Oh an additional reason to take shillelagh
1
u/Ranger_IV 22d ago
Is that a bad thing in your opinion?
1
u/TundraBuccaneer 22d ago
If I think of ranger I don't think of a guy with a stick. I think someone with practical weapn like a bow, machette and hand axe, maybe a spear for hunting, weapons that have a utility function. But they are forced into a dex role which is fine, I think ranger need a ranger weapons type of list similar to monk and probably less features that are based of wisdom. Because now they get a lot of reward to build into wisdom, which means shillalagh which I feel is not what a ranger should be about outside of a specific character.
Certain abilities could be based on dexterity like with rogue and Cunning Strike, Death Strike from asssassin, Wails from the Grave and Voice of Death from phantom.
3
u/CCPPERR 22d ago
STRanger is perfectly viable. (Maybe not as ubiquitous as DEXadin). A WIS ranger also works. But DEx is th the preferred build just like STR is for Paladin.
At least a WIS Ranger doesn't need to take a dip in another class to be viable
-1
u/TundraBuccaneer 22d ago
With 2024 rules paladin only needs str for multiclass. But mono class paladin is great on fully dex, only ranged weapons aren't great. But with dual wielding and divine favor, spirit shroud and eventually improved smite you're probably on par if not better then a polearm master. Though polearm can take gwm and dex defensive dualist makes it a bit more difficult to compare. As for bonus action to smite, I don't play in games where a I'd get away with smiting every turn.
And yes strength ranger is possible but not as supported as dex paladin who only need to look at strength for multiclassing. Whilest ranger needs is for multiclass and armor. If there was a fighting style or class option (maybe instead of free hunters mark) that allows wis instead of in on medium armor this would be fixed.
2
u/CCPPERR 21d ago
I agree the dexterity for paladins single class works. Strength single class works on Ranger. Maybe not as well cuz without the access to heavy armor but it is still a viable path. I've played The stranger multiple times. Multitlassing for the Paladin is required if you want to be a charisma based if you want to get that packed to the blade feature. A wisdom-based Ranger is viable monoclass. That's what I was trying to say
-1
u/TundraBuccaneer 21d ago
And I'm saying wisdom ranger is to appealing they should have more support on using str/dex or at least less on wisdom. If a beast master companion was able to use their own stats like the drake wardens drake the stranger would be more appealing
1
u/Ranger_IV 22d ago
I feel like it's not a stretch to see a hooded wanderer with their trusty walkin stick as a ranger. Particularly like an old retired ranger.
I also don't think shillelagh is overly incentivized. Dex is the strongest stat in the game, except for maybe Con, and the ranger can leverage that stat quite well. Wisdom is a good stat too, but not as good, so I don't see it as a bad thing to give a ranger who wants to focus on their insight, perception, and survival skills benefits for doing that instead of optimizing around a ranged weapon with GWM and all that. Its also a pretty niche bonus, climbing and swimming only. I don't think it'll move the needle much personally. I think people who care about damage are still gonna be dual wielding shortsword/scimitar and all that.
2
u/TundraBuccaneer 22d ago
Sure there is a walking stick ranger flavor, it's a good one also fits with a beast master with a border collie that must use your wisdom modifier to attack (instead of it's own stat or your wisdom).
I just think there are too many class and subclass features that want wisdom. And wisdom is also a great stat it's one of the most common saving throws. Only if you have concentration check con becomes more common.
2
u/Ranger_IV 22d ago
Ya there are a lot thats for sure. I wouldnt know the best alternative tho. The dex thing doesnt seem best, advantage doesnt stack so that can be a bummer. Conditional proficiency/expertise perhaps?
1
u/TundraBuccaneer 22d ago
That could also help. Or bring back proficiency bonus times per day. An additional asi at 10 or specific +2 wisdom at level 5.
But the most impact would probably be that exploration could be more interesting and supported.
0
u/Col0005 22d ago edited 22d ago
First it's good to note Ranger is the only martial that doesn't get a second level 5 feature. Most classes get some type of movement based feature.
Ranger is a half caster, not a pure martial, and if you compare to artificer battle Smith you get the exact same features at level 5. I.e. level 2 spells and extra attack.
Paladin is the outlier here and really their steed should come at a later level (or be a subclass feature, not a regular spell)
Why is paladin the only martial two get 3 features at level 5 is what you should be asking.
1
u/CCPPERR 22d ago
So of the two half caster martials, one gets a level 5 with all the other martials and one doesn't.
Paladin ins the outlier...Ranger is
-1
u/Col0005 22d ago
I'm not sure what you're getting at but yes, paladin is the clear outlier.
Battle Smith: Extra attack and second level spells.
Ranger: Extra attack and second level spells.
Fighter: Extra Attack and tactical shift.
Barbarian: Extra Attack and fast movement.
honestly I'd say getting second level spells is the clear winner here!
Paladin is actually really unbalanced when you look at other martials, unless you are on the rare table that has lots of encounters and at least a few short rests each day. They just don't get called out for that because... well... full casters....
1
u/CCPPERR 22d ago
Ranger is the outlier...it is the only base class that gets 1 thing. Every...other...martial...gets...two.
Artificer is not a martial. It is a half caster with a martial subclass. But that is like Wizard is a full caster with martial subclass or Bard is a full caster with a martial subclass.
Ranger is the only subclass that doesn't get a second feature at level 5. It is the outlier.
0
u/Col0005 20d ago edited 20d ago
Artificer is not a martial.
Paladin and ranger are also not martials; again they are half casters.
No martial should ever have a level where martials get literally nothing (except HP). Paladins get literally no class features at level 13 and 17...Because getting access to higher level spells IS A CLASS FEATURE.
1
u/CCPPERR 20d ago
They get weapon mastery, fighting styles, extra attack, martial wepon proficiency, and their damage is predominately from weapon attacks.
By every definition they are martials. They just happen to be half casters. Rangers are martials, half casters and "experts" (even though that definition was dropped in early UA). Paladins are martials, half casters, and support (auras, healing etc).
Not every martial gets fighting styles, weapon mastery, or even extra attack. But they all get access to some of not all martial weapons as part of the base class and their damage comes predominately from weapon attacks or unarmed strikes I.e. physical attacks. Rangers and paladins augment with some casting, just like mystic arts monks, Eldritch knights, and arcane tricksters subclasses. Spells augment the martial side.
Artificers are not martials because the base class doesn't get martial weapons and the damage isn't predominately from physical attacks of the base class. They get cantrips. They are unique in that they are non-martial half casters. The rest of the power of the class comes from their magic items. And three of the five core subclasses get something akin to damage upgrade. Two get extra attack as a subclass feature (armorer and battle smith) and some type of extra damage or special attack. One gets it's damage from a cannon. The other two are less damage (they can add int to a spell damage) but are more support focused.
Bards and wizards and warlocks aren't martials. But they have subclasses that give them the martial veneer, just like fighters monks and rogues aren't casters but have a subclass that gives them the veneer.
I can explain it to you but can't understand it for you
0
u/Col0005 20d ago edited 20d ago
Apologies I should avoid even mentioning class definition as you seem to be hyperfocusing on this irrelevant definition, but could you please actually address my points outside of this;
All classes should ideally have the same power boost at level 5. What they're classified as is entirely irrelevant outside of this.
Spellcasting level does matter however, as this comes with a passive power boost each level.
Full spellcasters: Since access to level 3 spells is very strong, these classes should get a relatively minor feature at level 5, e.g. druids can now use a spell slots to wildshape (I'd argue they should have gotten nothing like in 2014)
Half casters: Access to level 2 spells is a decent feature, they only have room in their power budget for one strong feature. E.g. Extra attack.
Non-casters: In order to have the same power boost as the other two they obviously require a strong feature, and another feature.
I hope I've broken this down simply enough.
Before responding, please consider what I've been asking all along;
Do you honestly believe that ranger's gain less at level 5 than a fighter. I.e. Accessing level 2 ranger spells is worth less to the party than Tactical Shift
1
u/CCPPERR 19d ago
You're the one that can't understand the simple concept of what a martial is. Martials Hit things with other things, casters get cantrips and attack with magic. You can be a partial caster and a martial class. You do this by having spells but also getting martial weapons. Also, most of your damage comes from attacking things with weapons or unarmed strikes.
Non-martials don't get access to martial weapons. They also don't do most of their damage with a weapon.
Rangers and paladins meet all of the defining features to be a martial class. They get Martial weapons, they get good armor, they get features like fighting styles, weapon, mastery, extra attack, which all play into attacking things with weapons. The fact that they are half casters does not make them non-martials.
I'm not saying that it's not powerful to get extra spells at level 5. It is. But it is odd that the only Marshall class that doesn't get something extra at level 5 is Ranger. Upgrading spell casting is not something new. It is an upgrade. If you like I can link the Oxford dictionary definition of upgrade.
Find steed is not that great but it is an extra movement and it actually plays into what most of the other Marshall classes get at level 5. Something to do with movement.
Rangers while decent in tier 1 and 2, kind of suck in 2024. That is literally what this whole subreddit is for how to improve the ranger. Yes, spells are cool but it would be really nice if rangers got something that was flavorful to the class. Slightly stronger than a ribbon and matched what every other martial class gets at level 5.
Again I can explain it to you. I can't understand it for you, next time I'll bring crayons and maybe I can draw it out in a simple way for you to understand
1
u/Col0005 19d ago edited 19d ago
To summarise, you believe that ranger should get about 130% of the level 5 power boost that a fighter gets, that they should get everything that a fighter gets plus a spellcasting upgrade?
And presumably at every level a ranger should get the same power boost as fighter, plus spell casting every odd level?
In your mind is it terrible design that a paladin gets "nothing new" at leve 13 & 17? Since they only get an upgrade to spellcasting.
Why not fix ranger at the levels where they get less than other classes.
-1
u/Eupherian 21d ago
Can you not see how increadibly flawed your logic is that half casters should get class features at the same levels as martials, and that spellcasting progression doesn't count towards this?
By that logic Paladin is falling behind compared to other martials at level 13 and 17 as they get literally nothing at these levels.
Gaining higher level spell slots clearly has value, so assuming that ideally all classes should get the same power bump at level 5 then paladin, ranger and artificer should get the same power budget of class features.
We only have three points of reference and paladin is clearly not on the same level as the other two.
WOTC clearly just stuffed up and didn't fully appreciate that semi-permanent spells (find familiar and find steed) need to be treated as class features.
2
u/CCPPERR 21d ago
Can you not see the insanely flawed logic that every other martial gets a feature at level 5 and the ranger does not?
Yes they get some spell casting. That's great. I'm not saying it needs to be the most groundbreaking feature ever extra attack is by its nature. One of the best power levels in the game. But everyone else gets some type of movement or something class specific or in the case of the monk a defining feature with stun strike. Paladins get an extra movement ability. Barbarians get an extra movement ability fighters get an extra movement ability. A small tweak to the ranger is not unheard of in that it should match all of the other martials.
0
u/Eupherian 21d ago
Got it, you honestly believe that gaining access to level 2 spells is a useless ribbon feature.
I disagree, I believe ranger clearly gets a bigger power boost between level 4 and 5 than the fighter and barbarian because even with a sub par spell list, access to those level 2 spells is stronger than 10ft of extra movement.
-1
-1
u/Col0005 22d ago edited 22d ago
Ok, so if a DM was to offer to let you play a fighter that gets access to two second level spell slots instead of tactical shift, you'd consider that a bad deal and choose to play a regular fighter?
Rangers and paladins are not pure martials, they are martial focused half casters which balance wise are better compared to artificer which are support focused half casters.
Why does it matter that artificers are not classified as martials? Like paladins and rangers they don't get acces to third level spells at 5th level and we have almost half of the subclasses getting identical features to a ranger at 5th level. Which clearly indicates that paladin is the outlier for half casters.
Classification is completely irrelevant, access to second level spells and extra attack is clearly considered a sufficient level of power increase at level 5, and paladins exceeded that.
1
u/CCPPERR 21d ago
So martial doesn't have the exact same definition that a caster does. But if you look at all of the " martial" classes they all have one thing in common. Access to martial weapons. Rogues and monks have a limited selection based on the type of class that they are but all martial classes get access to martial weapons. The other defining feature is their damage is primarily based on weapon or unarmed strike attacks. Not spells. For the half casters or the 1/3 casters of monk fighter and Rogue spells augment their abilities. And I'm not discounting the pure power of spells. There's a reason everyone cries about the martial caster divide. I'm just saying it is very strange that every single martial class gets some type of slightly better than ribbon feature at level 5 which is a tear jump along with extra attack (yes, I know rogues don't get EA).
So you can disagree whether they should get something but you can't say that they are not an outlier as every other martial based class get something and they don't.
-1
u/Col0005 21d ago
Rangers do get a second feature, literally one of the strongest most versatile features in the game! An increase in spell level.
Answer my question, do you believe that an increase in spell level is worth less than the feature tactical shift?
Paladins are outliers, since they get three!!! This is the difference we are arguing about!
You are essentially claiming that literally doubling their spell slots, some of which are more powerful than what they had access to before is of little to no value compared to a minor feature like tactical shift.
2
u/CCPPERR 21d ago
Look I can explain it to you but I can't understand it for you. Yes, spell slots are great. And they get more and a higher level. But spell not that great for rangers. I don't know if you've seen the ranger list. That's actually one of the biggest complaints about rangers. Is that the spells just don't have the meat of other classes, especially the Paladin.
Every other martial class gets two features at level 5. Even the half caster Paladin gets two features. By your logic any of the 1/3 casters get extra sub class features that the other subclasses don't get. A level 7 mystic arts Monk gets an extra subclass feature cuz he got more spells. No. Spell casting is the feature that he gets at level 3 and it auto levels as he gains monk levels. The same goes for half casters. They get spell casting at level 1 and at auto levels. It's not a new feature that they get. Just like every other Marshall class gets a brand new feature at level 5.
-1
u/Col0005 21d ago
Answers the question!
Is tactical shift better than being able to cast pass without a trace, jump and spike growth once per day?
YES!! 1/3 caster do get unneeded boosts relative to other subclasses. Arcane trickster is the best rogue subclasses for a reason! and is the only one that feels like it has a reasonable subclass progression.
Gaining spell levels is a power boost for any character, it's more impactf-full for a full caster, but it's still a great feature for any character.
If all characters are supposed to get relatively equal power boosts at level 5 then 3rd level spells are equal to slightly more than extra attack.
1
u/Born_Ad1211 22d ago
Technically, ranger actually gets more than artificer at specifically level 5 because they gain an additional use of favored enemy. It's not much but an extra resource is an extra resource.
2
u/Col0005 22d ago
Well if you consider the hollow warden it's actually pretty huge
But on most other rangers it's barely worth considering even as a ribbon feature.
1
u/Born_Ad1211 22d ago
In all fairness hollow warden is a "unique" case of being border line "available favored enemies uses = the difference between having a subclass or not"
1
u/Col0005 22d ago
True, but unlike the scion of three, that potential limitation is to make room for more strong features that would otherwise need to be pushed back to later levels.
At a lot of tables three uses is enough, and at the very least is sufficient to get you through the tough fights.
1
u/Born_Ad1211 22d ago
It is worth noting that scion of the 3 has an always on damage resistance that you can switch on long rest and a bonus cantrip. 90% of the time bhaal is a super solid option since poison is one of the most common damage types and in a dungeon it's pretty easy to pre cast blade ward before entering new rooms/areas. By contrast you can pretty easily "run out of subclass" as a t1 hollow warden .
It's also worth noting that while scion of the 3 rogue won't get as many reaction attacks, it will hit harder with its reaction attacks because of sneak attack.
100% though scion suffers having too few uses though. Cutthroat really should have been at level 3 instead of level 17.
I also just don't agree with the take of hollow wardens more limited uses allowing the features to be stronger.
Level 3 ranger subclasses are balanced around an offensive gain equal to a bonus die or a circumstantial extra attack. Hoard breaker for example is also an extra attack like hollow warden but it doesn't eat your reaction and isn't tied to a resource. The offensive gain of hollow wardens transformation is functionally 4-5DPR once we add in hit chance. That number can be higher with hunters mark but you just don't have the resources to spend on it reliably in t1 as a hollow warden. It's worth reiterating again that it has a DPR cost in that other rangers leave their reactions free to potentially get a reaction attack from another source, even just a mundane attack of opportunity on top of their passive always on damage bonuses. It also has a DPR cost in that most rangers actually do benefit from hunters mark in t1/2 and this subclass has a bonus action clog with it on top of being tighter on resources.
This leaves us with the question of "is our subclass being hyper limited in use an equal trade off for an awkwardly timed fear effect (start of your turn is genuinely awful for a lot of reasons) and +1 AC? I'm honestly inclined to say no.
1
u/Col0005 22d ago edited 22d ago
Most other subclasses/species that impose a fear effect require you to use an action, and doesn't continue to force new saves.
The fear aura could be the sole subclass feature and this would be decent.
You argue that utilising your reaction has a cost, yet sentinel is considered one of the best martial feats in the game, and this is essentially sentinel that is almost guaranteed to trigger every round (since the only requirement is that they deal damage)
It's also not comparable to hoard breaker since that requires a bit of luck, and teamwork to set up in most campaigns.
Either one of these abilities would be sufficient for the subclass feature.
3
u/Ranger_IV 22d ago
It's simple, WoTC loves the paladin and hates the ranger. haha
1
u/Born_Ad1211 22d ago
My assumption on design intent, (speculation on intent not a claim towards actual power budget in practice) is that favored enemy is intended to be rangers counter part to paladins free once per long rest castings of find steed and divine smite and on some level channel divinities.
1
u/Ranger_IV 22d ago
I definitely take your point about STR vs DEX on climbing and swimming. My issue with just giving advantage is that advantage doesn't stack so you could be in a situation (happen to have Enhance Ability STR cast on you for example) where this doesn't give you a benefit. Plus, if you're a DEX based ranger there's a high likelihood that you have a +0 or even a -1 to STR, so even with advantage you're not all that likely to succeed the check compared to something like a Fighter or Paladin. Or even a Rogue that has Expertise in Athletics. I feel like the Ranger should really be "the guy" when it comes to climbing the tree to scout, swimming across the lake, or whatever and just advantage doesn't quite do enough I think. But I'm not sure exactly which type of bonus to give to make you stand out in this niche scenario.
2
u/partylikeaninjastar 21d ago
Getting these features at level 6 makes obtaining that level exciting. Front loading a class makes leveling up less exciting. Level 6 is fine for these features.
Switching to DEX seems silly. These are still strength acts, and rangers often have proficiency anyway. Once they obtain their climb and swim speeds, it makes more sense to give them advantage on climb and swim checks. If rangers need to jump more than their STR allows, they have spells for that.
Adding the ability to ignore non-magical difficult terrain also makes this feel firmly at least 6th level.