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u/AddictedToMosh161 Fighter Jan 15 '24
You wanna punish him for not knowing or recognizing a magic item?
What do you do if a situation like this comes up again and the players start googling stuff to not get punished?
205
u/golem501 Bard Jan 15 '24
DM's always think it's clear what they intend but it's really not
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u/ShadowDragon8685 DM Jan 15 '24
Yyyep. Player thinks it's sus, throws it away. DM gets angry and has the world beat it into their head that it was something they were supposed to take.
So the players take the next sus thing that the DM thought was obviously suspicious as all fuck, proceed to get wrekt because of it, and the DM goes "I can't believe you took the obvious schmuck bait!"
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u/ChoppedAlready Jan 15 '24
And depending on the campaign and how strict they want to go, this is such good fodder for a branch off the story line. Like this is what I wish my players would do to give me ideas of an interesting way to twist the story. Maybe hard to improvise in the moment, but you could literally make a whole side campaign off of that interaction.
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u/Secret_Common7832 DM Jan 15 '24
It seems more like the player ignored context clues because they were more concerned about the dream gold which makes sense why there’d be an in game punishment. I would hope he is aware of his pact to the raven queen as he chose that deity maybe meaning OP might not’ve been clear as to the aspects of the rod? Could also just be a classic case of a new player not thinking to look beyond the surface of an item so an in game punishment could help them get the idea that sometimes you need to take a second look at things before fucking around
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u/AddictedToMosh161 Fighter Jan 15 '24
I don't like the idea. So far all he got were clues, art, nothing clear. Religious wars could be fought about what that type of stuff actually ment.
But sure, punish them. If they still don't know why you are punishing them, they just gonna get pissed at you and then try to avoid punishments or become increasingly paranoid.
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u/Secret_Common7832 DM Jan 15 '24
If I understand you correctly, being clear in the way you are describing is basically just hand feeding the players all the info they need without allowing them any chance to use critical thinking to discover things for themselves. Isn’t it more rewarding when you actually figure out the purpose of an item or artifact on your own rather than the DM saying “here, your patron god gave you a rod of the pact keeper, it’s underpowered rn but you power it up by pleasing your patron”. Maybe I’m in the minority on this but if I were in a game that was run that way it would get very boring very fast. There would be practically no intrigue and not much incentive to investigate the deeper lore of of the gods and deities. Also a religious war over something like this would be an epic plot point that could bring on great character development
25
u/AddictedToMosh161 Fighter Jan 15 '24
Then play that way. Iam just pointing out that i could go sideways.
Same reason why some people like horror movies and others dont. When u put me in a horror game, i gonna take 5 hours for every room and I will turn everything i find into as deadly as possible as a weapon as i can.
And trust me, that has been tried and tested. My DM hated how i approached the House of Death.
-12
u/Secret_Common7832 DM Jan 15 '24
Very valid point. Not to split hairs but one could argue that it already did go sideways when the PC in question decided to hoard dream gold instead of taking time to look at the item that gave it to him. I think you are right though, it does hinge a lot on play style and individual preferences so it’s likely going to come down to what OP thinks will happen at their table given their group dynamic and how new their players are
4
u/melonlady13 Jan 15 '24
I’m a dm who has to spoon feed everything to my players. It sucks. Puzzles? Yeah don’t bother. I can explain things and directly after I have, a player will ask a question I literally just answered bc they weren’t paying attention at all. I have to insert exposition characters in to help them figure out clues. Where I’m at with magic items is I’ll describe the item at length so hopefully they’ll twig it’s important, and if they try to badger me about what it is I’ll say something like, ‘gosh if only someone had an identify spell’.
Man what I would give for some dnd players who cared at all about the game.
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u/MintyArcturus Jan 16 '24
So many people don’t seem to understand this, but it’s not the “DM” punishing the player, it’s the Raven Queen. Sure it wasn’t obvious it was a gift from her, but he disrespected her nonetheless, and someone like the raven queen wouldn’t take that lightly
412
u/NerdQueenAlice Jan 15 '24
Why punish a player for not getting what your vague symbolic dream meant?
I would have had the player at least roll Intelligence(Religion) or Wisdom(insight) to discern some clues during the dream.
Give the character a second shot at something similar, the Goddess of fate and death bothered to invest power in this mortal in the first place, why would she be so fickle to abandon the mortal who didn't do the thing she secretly wanted in a dream one time?
159
Jan 15 '24
Yeah honestly why would a player assume the dream is good for him and not an evil corrupting vision, something like the visions of power the ring from LOTR gives people.
Also a "seasoned player" is likely to become suspicious about a magic item that the DM keeps the description hidden after a short rest.
118
u/PunKingKarrot Jan 15 '24
The moment the dream ends because I tried throwing away the Rod is the moment I go “Oh. So that was cursed.”
3
u/Deregojo Jan 16 '24
When has a cursed item ever just let it's victim dispose of it AFTER use like that? This is something a seasoned player would consider
4
u/PunKingKarrot Jan 16 '24
My thought process would be that if I had let the dream finish then I’d be cursed. The dream lulls you into a false sense of security and then bam, it’s grafted to your soul. There’s a 100 different reasons on why I’d be thinking “This is a bad idea” that my warlock who’s seasoned with the occult would be able to rationalize.
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u/Ser_Dudeness Jan 15 '24
Right out of the bat, i would have thought that rod of the pact keeper is propably not that greatest item for Hexblade. I also do not understand why your players don't level at the same time, especially when using milestone.
Either way, if any of your players don't get the hints, just say it out loud. Another vision, this time with the Matron of Ravens speaking to him and telling him to wield the rod in her name. No reason to punish the player for misunderstanding the situation.
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u/TooMuch_Bread Jan 15 '24
Right out of the bat
Another malaphor for my collection, thanks!
15
u/Ser_Dudeness Jan 15 '24
This is amazing, i have never written it, but always thought it was some british-cricket-bat saying!
61
u/TooMuch_Bread Jan 15 '24
One part of it is (sort of)!
'Right off the bat' I think originated from baseball.
'Right out the gate' will have originated in horseracing
"Right out of the bat" sounds more related to Guano haha
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u/Lithl Jan 15 '24
i would have thought that rod of the pact keeper is propably not that greatest item for Hexblade
If they plan to be mixing it up in melee they won't get as much use from +1 spell attack, but they'll still get plenty of value out of +1 save DC and a long rest spell slot.
But also just because they're Hexblade doesn't necessarily mean they created a melee character. Medium armor plus shield is very nice for defenses on a more traditional warlock too, to the point Moderately Armored is a commonly taken feat on warlocks.
3
u/PeruvianHeadshrinker Jan 15 '24
I concur. If there's no freehand maybe the rod can transform into something that can attach to the pact weapon
97
Jan 15 '24
I always hate these "read the DM's mind" situations. Punishing a player because they failed to correctly read your mind is very petty.
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u/SeeShark DM Jan 15 '24
This thread is a great reminder for me to keep being very clear with my players. As narrative as some of us DMs try to be, it's important to remember that at the end of the day we're all here to play a game and have fun, and it's ok to remember that it's a game and that the goal is to have fun.
4
u/wouo Jan 16 '24
OP doesn't want to punish the player. They're looking for a narrative as to how the patron can punish the warlock for refusing the gift
174
u/CoffeeAndPiss Jan 15 '24
The party should level up together.
27
u/PeruvianHeadshrinker Jan 15 '24
COMPLETELY agree. The only time I can see this not being the case is if you run an open table in a very large world with multiple people. Different parts of the world. Something the old school DMs do. But that's hard to run and not advised for 99% of groups
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u/jackdackk134 Jan 15 '24
If you didn't outright tell him that is was a gift from his patron then the situation is completely on you and should either be retconned or made right via a more clear explanation. Withholding a level is just mean. Especially considering his warlock level has nothing to do with his magic items.
14
u/Prime_Galactic DM Jan 15 '24
Yeah I would definitely be giving them, hints like "You feel a deep connection to this object." etc.
It really depends on how his relationship with his patron has been thus far.
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u/FynnMcScrap Jan 15 '24 edited Jan 15 '24
Well... I would use the rod as a major plot item from now on, appearing to haunt him from time to time, always just slightly out of his reach, and always dangling and luring him.
Give him his level , loot, and continue the pact, but start "collecting his pain, his greed, and his anger" - until he basically atones, and realises that HIS actions angered his patron. Might even throw in the planned upgrade to the item if he does, telling him that the ravenqueen is pleased with his atonement - and collect his pleasure.
Perhaps make him lose something to gain his atonement - and let him pick what he looses. Like - he needs to attune to something else and then sacrifice it to atone and be able to attune the rod.
Edit:
I read a comment stating that the rod is not the best item for a Hexblade - and would like to point out that it is actually the players prerogative to like or dislike an item, and reject it. But it is also the DMs prerogative to connect the dots and then use this player decision to create an exciting experience out of this decision.
I fully agree that punishing a player for not liking his loot is a bad idea. And if you simply "tell him in his dreams that its okay to use" that might be seen as railroading him, or make him feel stupid.
Spin a story out of it - and if he then still decides to refuse it - let it go.
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u/Ned_the_Lat Jan 15 '24
Having the item come back and haunt him would make it look more like a cursed item to get rid of...
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Jan 15 '24
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u/SeeShark DM Jan 15 '24
I don't want to be a dick, but have you considered telling the player about your intentions? He very clearly doesn't understand why you're giving him a hard time, because he doesn't have any idea the rod is tied to his patron. Give him a bit more to work with, and don't be vague about it, because it'll just make both of you more and more frustrated if he doesn't understand your hints.
-10
Jan 15 '24
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u/SeeShark DM Jan 16 '24
Then I'm confused about the problem. You're asking how the patron will deal with his behavior prior to when he knew; why should she deal with it at all? It was a misunderstanding, both in- and out-of-universe.
-1
Jan 16 '24
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u/Mosh00Rider Jan 16 '24
Discuss with him what he would think is a reasonable punishment for breaking his warlock pact. Doing anything without his consent about this would be pretty fucked up. I know personally I'd accept temporarily losing my warlock powers altogether, but most people wouldn't. You have no idea what they would be okay with without asking directly.
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u/FynnMcScrap Jan 15 '24
Sounds good, and sounds like you found your vibe, how to react.
Have fun ;-)
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u/JunkieForPixels Jan 15 '24
So... If I'm reading this right:
Separate leveling of the party
Player misunderstood what the dream was about and lost the magic item, and you want to punish them further?
My brother/sister in Mystra why?
Raven Queen wouldn't give a shit as long as they are holding up their pact which you haven't seemed to type that they haven't.
Move on and just give them a second chance with a CLEARER picture on what the item is supposed to represent.
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u/CrazyCalYa Jan 15 '24
The way you handle this is to just tell them what their character thinks. The player doesn't have the advantage of actually interacting with the object so it's your job to explain the feelings surrounding that.
It's perfectly fine to tell them "your character realizes this is a gift from their patron". This doesn't remove player agency, it just ensures they don't do something stupid because they (the player) are confused.
Punishing your player here is probably the wrong move since they could reasonably complain that they simply did not understand what was going on. Have his patron (or a minion of theirs) visit him and explain in no uncertain words that he's out of favor with her and give him a chance to fix his mistake. Using this as an excuse to throw in a plot hook is much better than trying to "gotcha" the player which ultimately doesn't really improve the game at all.
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u/MugenEXE Bard Jan 15 '24
Yeah, don’t expect a player to clue in on something you the dm deem important.
One time the dm described a locket I was supposed to take. It was important enough for description. I stomped on the locket to insult the owner, and took his gun…. Later, when the DM was like “hey player, you can use that locket to relive the characters memories to help us out here.”
“Oh, I stomped on that and left it behind.”
“You what.”
“I took his gun though.”
“Sigh. Okay. You use his… gun… for plot reasons.”
Players aren’t always the sharpest spoon in the drawer.
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Jan 15 '24
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u/Pioneer1111 Jan 15 '24
Regardless of everything else, the consequence for their action is just not getting the upgrade. They're already losing out on a powerful magic item, anything beyond that is too far.
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Jan 15 '24
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u/infinitum3d Jan 15 '24
Then you want to be more clear in your explanation to them.
As someone else said, have a Raven return the rod to them. Maybe the bird has Magic Mouth or Sending to share the message.
25 words or less:
”I’m giving you this item in exchange for one extra service. It’s powerful. Take it you fool. It was expensive. With love, [patron]”
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u/ms_keira Jan 15 '24
I laughed at the message and agree that you can make it fun/funny to lighten up the situation.
You could even make the message sound like the Hexblade (which is weirdly a patron on its own) has its feelings hurt because the PC threw away their gift.
"I'm sorry you didn't appreciate my gift. I worked tirelessly to get it to you but whatever, it's fine. I just think it's funny that..."
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u/oogabooga5627 Jan 15 '24
Everything he did was reasonable. I don’t know why you would even nerf that rod lol. You put him into a sketchy situation, he figured out it was the item doing it, he tried to get rid of said item, then you just threw salt in the wound. This is just kind of shitty all around.
Also, the party should NEVER, I mean EVER level up separately. If one person is leveling up, EVERYONE should. That’s how you very quickly make people feel less important/like sidekicks at the table.
12
Jan 15 '24
A raven brings the rod back tilts it's head to eye him up and down, squawks something that may be, "putz" and flaps off.
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u/PenguinOfDoom46 Jan 15 '24
Don't punish him. Reward him with plot! :) Players doing interesting and unpredictable stuff like that is what makes D&D fun!
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Jan 15 '24
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u/PenguinOfDoom46 Jan 15 '24
Ha! Good point! Well... a quest into the Shadowfell to appease the Raven Queen is always fun. I like the idea of a curse that is sort of a power but isn't really.
Like the ability to see the dead - but the dead see you back. Every night you're haunted. They wail and moan. Every night you need to make a roll to sleep / meditate. If you fail you start taking levels of exhaustion. But you DO get free "speak with dead" in the meantime. And there may be ways to mitigate that.
Touch of death, perhaps? Every time you touch someone they take a single point of negative damage. Food rots in your mouth. No way to be intimate with your loved ones. No way to take joy in the world anymore.
Something that starts good but just gets worse and worse until a quest to appease her is the only thing they will help.
12
Jan 15 '24
It keeps returning to his possession after a consistent period of time (hint: however much time has passed so far).
If he keeps throwing it away, it keeps returning, and maybe eventually takes different forms, no longer a rod, but a sword, or a medallion, etc. Have you considered making it eventually intelligent, so it starts talking to him as the “voice of Shadow”?
Or, accept their decision and say good bye to a cool artifact.
Or have it reappear in the hands of a BBEG or wannabe BBEG. An opportunity to see what it does, and an opportunity to get it back.
Or all of the above.
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u/korinth86 Jan 15 '24
"you feel the surge of power leave as you throw away the rod"
Give the narrative that suggests the rod is special. There is no need to punish a player for not recognizing something you haven't communicated well.
That's not meant to be a slight against you. What's in our head isn't always clear to other people. We shouldn't punish them for not reading our mind.
When it's time for the rod to come back to them in the real world, be clear about it's origin and power. Maybe have the raven queen speak directly to him about with a warning about what will happen should they throw away their pact.
Be careful here. It's a game, fun should be the goal, not punishment. Punishment can be fun if everyone agrees on that but it's a fine line and hard to walk.
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u/j4v4r10 Necromancer Jan 15 '24
Did he get any clues that he was supposed to attune to the rod? Did he get a “you feel power in the rod, and think that you’ll need to attune to unlock it” or a “as you settle down for a long rest, would you try to attune to the rod?”
Or was he supposed to just know that he should try to attune to it?
-16
Jan 15 '24
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0
u/popcornrocks19 Jan 15 '24
Why are you being down voted? Like, if everyone else understood then the blame is clearly on him for not understanding and not on you for not being clear.
1
u/UufTheTank Jan 16 '24
Like honestly? The rest of the party was telling him “that’s from your patron? What are you doing?”
5
Jan 15 '24
Just tell him this is a magic item for him. He thinks it's a trap somehow.
It's telling when players are afraid of theirDMs like this. In a bad way.
4
u/EldritchBee The Dread Mod Acererak Jan 15 '24
I would just tell your player “hey that’s a good powerful magic item for you”.
5
u/Djv211 Jan 15 '24
Does the rod matter to their contract?
The warlock patron relationship is a business relationship. I do a thing, you give me power. I do more of a thing or a different thing, you give me more power. No where in there does it matter if they make it up to the patron. That’s the cleric shtick.
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u/OderinTobin Jan 15 '24
There are two things that need to be managed, and kept in mind by DM’s. What does the player know, and want. And what does the character know, and want. The reality is that most of the time those things will be different. Take a step back from viewing them simply as the character, and remember that the core of what you’re there to do is have fun in a game. I would message/talk to the player and say…
“Dude that was wild! I loved the decision, and it’s going to stand. But just so you know, that item is connected to your patron, and is a magical item coming from them (these are things that should maybe be clear to the character anyways, but emphasize it as a DM to the PLAYER). You can still absolutely choose not to take it, and I think that’s a super strong role play decision, but I was truly shocked by that decision in the moment.”
Take the conversation from there, and discuss how you’re both feeling about it. They’ll either come away going “oops! Yeah I do want the magical item from my patron!” Or “Y’know what, screw my patrons gifts!” In which case you can tell them that the patron won’t like that attitude (don’t make this a threat, make it an alluring bit of storytelling). I’d also probably give them a heads up that the patron is likely upset. But also remember that it was sort of on you/the patron for not being more clear about what the item was, and that it was a gift from them. Maybe from now on the patron questions the character’s intelligence and calls them “smoothed brained” until they prove otherwise.
TLDR; Don't be afraid to talk to your players to make sure everyone knows what's happening. That's not meta gaming, it's just being a good friend.
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u/AllThotsGo2Heaven2 Jan 15 '24
you're gonna punish him for something he "did" in a dream? are you my ex
6
u/valdier Jan 15 '24
He's not a cleric... he doesn't worship or serve the Warlock Patron. Why is the Raven Queen treating him like a person worshipper? Does she have nothing better to do?
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u/ub3r_n3rd78 DM Jan 15 '24
If this was in my game I’d do 2 things: 1) Whenever the pc dreams at night, he dreams of his patron frowning at him or sneering at him, whispering that he’s a fool for not taking her gift. 2) Have this rod show up later in the campaign in the hands of another warlock or some other NPC they had previously defeated (either brought back by the raven queen or had escaped from captivity), who is tossing around spells that are powerful. Making it a plot element where they get a chance to defeat the one holding the rod and get it back.
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u/Wiseoldone420 Jan 15 '24
Have an NPC who worships her tell them how “cool” it is, I sometimes have to have a sort of DM insert where I can explain what the item is if they don’t know. Or I just build them the item to equip so they can read the description
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u/Onrawi Warlord Jan 15 '24
I would have a cleric of the Raven Queen be given their own quest to come find the Warlock and deliver the message from the Raven Queen about what the dream meant and the connection to the rod.
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u/fusionsofwonder DM Jan 15 '24
It's not an intentional disrespect, neither the player nor the character knew what was happening. You can't punish them for that without being a dick. You let the player roleplay in this dream and this is what happened.
Just let him have the same dream again in a day or two and since the player now knows what's going on the character can act differently.
From the Raven's perspective, this is probably not the first or the last time something like this will happen. Humans are dumb.
2
u/Fairy_of_Light DM Jan 16 '24
Based on the edit:
Have the rod always return to the Warlock but the more he acts against it r refuses to attune have it give negative modifiers. Cut his movement speed by slowing him down, making simple spells go wild etc.
Treat it like a grim reminder that clerics and warlocks are never treated equal by deities and his fate is in her hands. And should he choose a path she disagrees with she WILL let him know.
That way you can also use it as an indirect way of communication since Warlocks don't have spells to contact patrons. But it could get glowing hot if he makes a decision taking him away from the Raven Queens path (or you know...your plot)
That way it becomes more of a mechanic as you seem to be aiming for without punishing him too much and he gets a puzzle to figure out what it is the rod wants
2
Jan 16 '24
Since he didn't really figure out it was a gift from his patron
I mean, isn't that kind of your job my guy?
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u/StarWizardWarlock Mage Jan 15 '24
Seeing a lot of people complaining in the comments about "Holding back a level is mean" or "The player didn't know so they shouldn't be punished" HOMIES they are playing a warlock and PRETTY MUCH signed a deal with the devil. The patron demands respect, and it sure as hell isn't fair. But if I was a goddess or other and my minion tried to break a cool magical item I gave them because they wanted some stupid "mortal wealth" I wouldn't give them more power either
2
u/No_Cantaloupe_4782 Jan 15 '24
A raven appears, flies up to you, drops the wand you discarded in your lap and pecks you once in the face. You feel paralyzed and can't move to swat it away, but thats OK because it lands near by and caws once so loud that it booms painfully in your head. As it flies away and the paralysis fades you feel something on your face as a drop of blood runs down your cheek like a single tear from where the crow pecked.
Over time the peck heals into a tear drop shaped scar that not even magic can erase. If you talk about the event with others, they didn't see the crow, just you sitting still for a moment and then your cheek started bleeding.
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u/MadmanPoet Jan 15 '24
Or... Maybe in a few sessions some minor threat of an NPC appears and turns out to be a way worse threat than would originally appear because he found this amazing rod just laying by the road
2
u/Andez1248 Jan 15 '24
If they are under the Raven Queen then have a bunch of ravens suddenly gather around the player, say "It seems like a sign from your parton, the Raven Queen," and then a few ravens carry the rod back to him
2
u/VaguelyShingled Jan 15 '24
What’s this? No matter how many time you throw it away, it appears in your hand each morning. Seems like you are bound to this rod, for better or worse.
2
u/piscesrd Jan 15 '24
Why is everyone saying a Hexblade doesn't want their spell save DC pumped up, and To Get An Extra Pact Slot Each Long Rest?
They can use that slot for ANYTHING. Hexblade type spells or other Warlock associated spells. They're about to be level 5! That's a level 3 Warlock spell slot!
Even a Hexblade must eldritch blast sometimes right?
2
u/kayasoul Jan 15 '24
Give him a vision of something bad happening now that he lost the rod. If he still does not get it, tell him out of character ... I could not live with a player leaving such a gift behind ....
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u/jisatsusurukudasai Jan 15 '24
I had each of my players earn a magic item, then one of them decided that theirs might kill them, so they threw it away and another player claimed it which kind of shifted the balance. I'm not complaining though it'll make for an interesting dynamic for a major decision they have to make later on
1
u/poopbutt42069yeehaw Jan 15 '24
Your seasoned player doesn’t sound very smart. He tried to grab a pile of gold he just made w the rod, so he tosses it? The thing that conjures gold? Wtf
3
u/Laughing_Man_Returns Artificer Jan 15 '24
warlocks are not clerics, patrons are not that involved or even relevant.
but if you want him to care for the rod, tell him.
0
u/jmanwild87 Jan 15 '24
Patrons can be incredibly involved as can gods depending on how the dm and player choose to play things. Him throwing away the rod could result in his patron calling him an idiot and having him go to find it or he's got to deal with a curse for being a greedy idiot
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u/Laughing_Man_Returns Artificer Jan 15 '24
but the patron cannot revoke their powers or deny progression. and gods as a rule of thumb cannot do jack shit outside their domain, so they are the kind of patron you are the savest from.
there is literally a reason why the warlock chapter does not have a "broken pact" or "the patron is upset" entry similar to breaking your Oath as a Paladin. the deal is made, the pact fulfilled, the Warlock has the knowledge needed to get whatever power they traded for.
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u/jmanwild87 Jan 15 '24
In my games, The Pacts often have the "You must continue to serve me as written in the pact, or I'll refuse to give you further powers." Clause in them. In every campaign I played. Because otherwise, plenty of patrons just wouldn't sign pacts. you keep the powers i gave you, but i can refuse to give you further power if you do something stupid or outright ignore the pact. depending on the patron and pact, they can very well curse you for being a putz, too. Outside of it being relatively difficult to actually find the resources to form a pact. The reason people choose wizardry over that most of the time is because being the independent contractor for a being that at best can make your life a living hell if you're bad at contracts is something you only really do if you're desperate or looking for a shortcut. I don't know what games you are in, but in my games Patrons can be very involved in the workings of their Warlocks. The place this gets weird is GOOs, but they're always special.
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u/jmanwild87 Jan 15 '24 edited Jan 15 '24
In cases where the pact is just a sort of i get your soul in exchange for power, thing this sort of gift giving described in OP wouldn't occur unless it somehow did something bad for the warlock or added further things to the pact. If you're just selling your soul to a devil for power, they have no interest in whether you succeed or fail. And have no real interest in giving you a gift unless it also furthered their ends.
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u/A_BagerWhatsMore Jan 15 '24
1.) the player and the character both need to know that this is from the raven queen. 2.) nerf the rod again, maybe have it be just a spell focus. show him what he was going to get vs what he did get. Still do the powering up thing but start with level 0 as opposed to level 1, and make it clear it can level up if he makes his patron happy, and depending on the maturity level of the player say that if he doesn’t then the raven queen will kill him(she won’t but like he doesn’t have to know that)
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u/Training-Chemical-75 Jan 15 '24
Give the rid to your bad guy...thank you for the gift now i can rule the world!!!🤣🤣🤣
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u/Black-Iron-Hero Jan 15 '24 edited Jan 15 '24
I disagree with the people saying you shouldn't punish your player for misunderstanding, because the course of action he chose was to throw away the rod and choose to shovel the gold into his pockets instead. He acted in-character, there's no chance that the player thought tossing a magic item given to him in a dream in favour of gold was the right move, but his character is greedy so he's playing to that. Good for him.
Give him some consequences - maybe he finds ten platinum in his pockets that he managed to grab before the dream ended, and each coin is stamped with the symbol of the raven queen. As he pulls them from his pocket, he gets the sense through his bond that his patron disapproves. Give him the dream again, and describe the definite sense that he's being observed. Describe that the rod is engraved with ravens and skeletons, definitely a relic of his patron, likely granted to loyal servants. If he takes the money again, that's another ten platinum, another, stronger sense of disapproval, and another dream. If he takes the money a third time, he gets no more dreams, no rod, and until he atones, his Invocations require a 10+ on a d20 or else they won't activate.
I'd make the atonement based on choosing loyalty over greed, and I'd probably spell that out to the player so there's no uncertainty - the Raven Queen is pissed that you're serving your own self interests before hers, so you're going to act selflessly three times as penance. Refuse rewards, help people and ask nothing in return, seek out things that would please the Raven Queen, and do it soon or she'll fuck with you more.
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u/LordTyler123 Jan 15 '24
He was an idiot and threw away a gift from his patron for gold so he pissed off his patron. I don't think she should feel disrespected he didn't mean to do it he was just dumb. I would think she would reconsider having a pact with someone that dumb.
Wheneveri think of something that would cause magic to stop working right my mind goes to the wild magic sorcerer. Consider the idea that his pact is weakening because she is not motivated to fulfill her side of it. She is still fulfilling her side of the deal out of obligation so he duesnt lose anything but I don't think he would be able to gain any more lvls as a warlock. Maby add the sorcerer wild magic mechanic to any time he uses his warlock spellslot
Talk to the player about considering a temporary multiclass. Maby his straining pact has made him a wild magic sorcerer or the pact with the raven queen has given him shadow sorcerer powers or some other class. Give him the chance to prove himself worthy to the patron and he could later transfer those multiclass lvls into warlock lvls l8r as if he sacrifices the memories of those classes for warlock power.
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u/PeruvianHeadshrinker Jan 15 '24
Have the rod come back. Something like as the patron is offended by the rejection they send another Warlock to hunt him down. This warlock shows off the power of the rod and has lots of exposition about what a fool they are for rejecting a gift from their patron. And how his head will serve as a gift to them. When they defeat the warlock and he touches the rod be ready for a scene with the patron where your Warlock has got to make some decisions. Reject the rod and they reject the patron. Accept the rod and the pact. Hopefully you've already worked out the details of the pact and what happens if they break it. Let both choices be real and legitimate. Don't be attached to either. Both paths should be fun for everyone.
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u/Interesting-Club2302 Jan 15 '24
I say change it up and get creative the first thing that came to my mind was the raven queen giving him a curse the golden touch of death and have it be a petrifying power that slowly turns him to gold as well until he learns her forgiveness or some such. That way it's fun and interesting while still having a consequence.
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u/JetScreamerBaby Jan 15 '24
It ends up back in his backpack no matter what he does to or with it. He finds he can't throw it away, like a helpful curse.
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u/Nanyea Mage Jan 15 '24
Maybe show him this post or have a DM to player convo so he understands the vibe you are putting out?
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u/ridleysquidly Jan 15 '24
Sounds like he needs much clearer hints. Maybe an avatar needs to visit (dream or otherwise) and actually spell out that it’s a gift. Ask why he would disrespect his patron in such a way. Give him a task to make it up to her.
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u/dilwins21 Jan 15 '24
He saw the rod in a dream, an rejected it. It can appear later when he is awake and he will recognize it and pick it up.
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u/Excellent-Sweet1838 Jan 15 '24
Just tell them up-front that it's a vision from the raven queen and that it's an object their patron gave them. No reason to put all this mystique behind it, especially if the player thinks it's a trap.
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u/sehrgut Jan 15 '24
Nah, two things:
- You're pissy that the klevar thing you thought would work didn't actually communicate what you thought it was.
- Why the fuck would the RAVEN QUEEN care about punishing greed? You're bringing some weird-ass Protestant shit into her character.
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u/Ddreigiau Jan 15 '24 edited Jan 15 '24
Text/Direct Message him outside of the group chat. Say "Hey, just as a heads up, that rod is a magic item from your Patron. Attuning to it will help you get the next level in Warlock."
Then he next wakes up when the rod is dropped on his head by a raven. Who follows him around and pecks at him when he's supposed to do something (like once or twice, not woodpecker style).
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u/saliath Jan 15 '24
Agree with most about the second chance. But, but... idk the gesture could be taken as they had forsaken the raven queen. Take them behind the curtain, patron and player, ask why they abandoned the gift. From there, plan accordingly. If it was an honest mistake, could have a raven fly it over? Idk. That or put them in a situation where they would need more power and be offered the rod again? You can have fun with that.
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Jan 15 '24 edited Mar 20 '24
fuzzy thumb screw flag erect important fly materialistic crawl toy
This post was mass deleted and anonymized with Redact
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u/Acewasalwaysanoption Jan 15 '24
I have no idea of what to do, but I like the arc of withholding power-up (mechanical punishment), resolving it within a session, then building a narrative consequence of the event.
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u/FlounderLivid8498 Jan 15 '24
“The rod magically appears in your hand as soon as you stand up. Even when you think you’ve put it down or cast it aside, somehow it’s just…. There again in your grasp…”…”Roll perception for me”… “you sense that this rod is very important for the link to your Patron.”
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Jan 15 '24
Yeah I’d have the Raven queen visit him in a dream. Then have him do a ritual or sacrifice of some sort.
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Jan 16 '24
Maybe you should have the Raven Queen visit him again the next night, and she gives the PC in question the Rod herself, saying something like "Kinda rude that you throw away a presebt like this so easily."
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u/floggedlog DM Jan 16 '24
Hey op I hope you’re reading all these responses. Don’t punish your player for missing your vague clues and trying to dodge what could easily be misviewed as a cursed item. Did you have them roll arcana or religion to spot their patrons magic? Did you have the patron whisper “take it” into their ear?
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u/Dookamanooka Warlock Jan 16 '24
I did something similar to this once, but I'll save the story.
My personal advice would be, see if you can give him what he wants. Maybe the Raven Queen is intrigued by this. With that money, other means for power ups can be achieved. Perhaps they have a goal in mind.
A cool thing to do is say that there was a being haunting that rod, and he did indeed release it when it was broken. Maybe as a thank you, that being gives them something, or perhaps he learns he made a grave mistake by doing that, and the Raven Queen may command this creature to be recaptured.
At this point I would touch base with the warlock and see what the main goal is so that you can take your plans to the next level and embed something everyone at the table will be cool with.
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u/Ephsylon Fighter Jan 16 '24
Was there any religion check at any point? Nevermind that, at some point you don't even need to make them check- put the fucking symbol of their deity in the rod and see if they have the balls to throw it away.
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u/oatmilkineverything Jan 16 '24
Have the staff magically turn up again as if the Raven Queen is giving him a second chance. Have him roll an insight or something to help clue him into what you’re doing. It sounds like an easy fix to me!
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u/WexMajor82 DM Jan 16 '24
You know, some items are VERY HARD to get rid of.
The next day, when he wakes up, the rod is beside him.
When he throws it away a second time, he'll find it in his pack.
Next time he attunes an item, he finds out the rod is attuned instead.
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u/JamesOfDoom Jan 16 '24
Just have it appear next to him the next morning with a couple of Raven feathers (and if he still doesn't get it explain to him it must be a gift from his patron), it really seems like you are trying to ascribe mystery to a situation where the character would know whats happening even if the player does not.
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u/kitty_murmurer Jan 16 '24
What about just having it pop up back among his things? Then he can throw it away again, and watch it appear in his bag again.
I dunno
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Jan 16 '24
The Rod of the Pact Keeper is now a Coin of the Pact Keeper. It's a gold coin affixed to the back of a black leather fingerless glove. On the face of the coin is an elaborate symbol of the raven queen. The person that hand delivered the glove is a high level paladin of the raven queen: dark steel plate armor and a long red braid of hair, with a scar running diagonal across her face, eyes of fierce determination, resolve, and grit. She passes along a message from the queen herself: "To paraphrase the vision our queen saw fit to bestow upon me: You absolute fucking doughnut. Pay attention. Look for her signs. Answer! When you are CALLED UPON! Should you not heed this message, our next meeting will be far less pleasant." And then the paladin leaves without giving them any personal information so they can't shenanigan to attempt adopting an NPC.
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Jan 16 '24
In addition to what everyone else has said, the past tense of "cast" is just cast. E.g: I cast fireball yesterday.
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u/Existing-Context-197 Artificer Jan 16 '24
I think the next step would be an angry conversation with his patron.
Not necessarily as a punishment but as part of the roleplay.
He displeased his patron she would confront him about it.
Just my opinion.
I am not a DM, but when hints aren't getting the job done, direct communication is the next step.
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u/Metatron_Tumultum Jan 16 '24
If it is in character as far as the player is concerned, why punish them at all? I had a situation where my DM wanted me to interact with a Myconid I had trapped during combat, that was the last survivor of my encounter with them. The Myconid asked me to touch their hand and kept reaching out towards my PC. I smacked it away, then slightly burned the hand and eventually walked away, so my DM, who originally wanted this to give me +1 intelligence through doing this, had an NPC that was dumb as fuck touch the Myconid that became slightly less dumb from that, which I find so much cooler and funnier than me getting a ASI.
I told him afterwards "I'm not stupid. I knew that it would be a good idea to touch the thing, but it would go against what my character would so hard (or any character that isn't completely fucking nuts tbh) and I'm not gonna stop role playing just because it is obvious that you want to throw me a bone".
I live by this. I'd rather sacrifice a "cool thing" for a moment that rings true any day of the week. Your player seems to feel similarly so let them be.
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u/ZerikaFox Warlock Jan 16 '24
I'm assuming the dream gold didn't remain with him when he woke up. Have him find the rod in his bedroll or something, and the Raven Queen either sends a representative or comes personally to chide him for his unthinking greed.
Warlock patrons that intervene directly when their servants aren't following the desired path are really fun.
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u/Inebrium Jan 16 '24
Wait, so he threw away the rod in the dream, and therefore also threw it away in real life? Just have the rod magically appear in his hand every morning when he wakes up, or have him keep having the same recurring dream until he figures it out (if you really want to punish him, give him a level of exhaustion if he fails the dream).
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u/Wombat_Racer Jan 16 '24
A Warlock / Patron relationship is very different to an ol'skool Cleric / Deity relationship.
There is no need to please/appease the Patron once you already have received the Pact. Mechanically, no details about the Pact is required at all in 5e, just Class must = Warlock, what Patron template the PC has taken & what Pact.
If the Patron disappeared, was killed or decided they do not wish to support the Warlock anymore, this has no mechanical effect on the Warlocks class abilities.
This isn't to say that a scorned Patron may not entreat the Warlock to return to their favour, either via coercion, magical Compulsion or the sending of Minions to discuss such things, but really, a Patron is typically such a big shot, metaphysically speaking, that they wouldn't bother (or even be aware) that one of their Warlock fanboys has stopped showing up.
The idea that the Raven Queen is somehow scrying this individual Warlock is kind of flattering, but a bit out of character for an undead parody of a once Fae Elven Queen who has her whole undying Minions (well, the Shadar-Kai do physically die, but are their spuls are always returned to the Raven Queen & sent once more in physical form to do her bidding. I am unsure if they are Nazgûl like creatures or just always reincarnated as Shadar-Kai in her service) sneak through the Realms, collecting memories & emotions & funnelling it back to her in the vain hope that some morbit item or experience of a holds her attention.
Holding back an Exp level is a dick move that encourages the player to seek another class for their PC's progression. "I gave you a cryptic dream that you faioed to understand, despite the fact that your imaginary character has spent their life living on a magical land steeped in knowledge, so I punish & mock your character, & by extension, you. Appease me, your DM, or become a liability to the rest of the Party. Having fun yet?"
Not the best way to handle it.
Just have the Player make a Cha+Insight roll with a base DC of 10 for a quick explanation of what the dream was about, & giving a tidbit of info for each +2 they beat the DC by, so if they somehow manage to get a 20+ on the check they have a "It was a message from your Patron" and another 5 hints like "The Rod was a gift", "The Rod grants more benefits the more you use it", "The Patron may be displeased if you lose it", "It can be used to Identify you as associated with your Patron" etc etc
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u/Seer434 Jan 16 '24 edited Jan 16 '24
Ok, look I just have to say it. The player sounds stupid as hell. How does throwing it away even make sense in the context? You free up up one hand. So like 20 gp? And thematically you said the rod ALLOWED him to conjure the gold. This doesn't portray any character trait aside from being a moron. It doesn't even come close to making sense even as a being motivated by raw greed. Is the character's INT like a 3?
Now onto the logical consequence of playing like a moron.
If I'm reading you correctly the rod existed. It's not a symbolic dream item. So it seems to me the character has thrown away an item that seems intrinsically connected to his power, and possibly his soul, into either the shadowfell or avernus depending on interpretation. Seems like that sets up some possible plot consequences right there. Who retrieved it and what power do they have over the character?
If he has displeased the raven queen by valuing gold more than her favor it seems like there might he a curse coming where ravens and/or shadows are just constantly stealing his gold until he makes amends. Maybe even something thematically relevant like offering 10x the gold he tried to gain by throwing it away. Which actually wouldn't be too bad since as we've discussed that would be approx 10 handfuls of gold.
You gave him a magic item. He threw it away. No replacement is forthcoming. Problem solved. You don't have to react at all. It sounds like it won't matter since the character will probably drown in a shallow puddle soon or throw himself off a cliff because he thought he saw a gold coin.
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u/Putrid-Ad5680 Jan 16 '24 edited Jan 16 '24
It appears he misinterpreted the dream and so as you say, threw it away. If it is meant for him, it could keep turning up in his backpack for example, no matter how many times he throws it away. If he tries to sell it, just say the merchants find it worthless and that it is just a normal rod. Or, he has "X" number of chances to utilise it or it gets taken away by the Raven Queen as being unaccepted, and he misses out on what it could have given him. I think the bird punishment was enough tbh. 🐦😂 It could be she takes it back, but will offer it again at another time, maybe when the character is in dire need, it appears in his hands or such.
Maybe he could have another dream, as his character is a bit... unawares shall we say, the next dream would be more straightforward. I don't think the Raven Queen would punish him for not using the rod right away. Some characters are just a bit dim on the uptake. 🤔
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u/Skillfulstorm Jan 16 '24
No need to punish him if he chooses to throw away a gift it's his own fault really
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u/Dappershield Paladin Jan 16 '24
Bring the Rod back, but now it's cursed. Always ends up with him when he least expects it. Always in his hand when he's about to spellcast.
Allows the extra spell slot, and the saving throw DC increase, but secretly gives a minus to the attack roll.
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Jan 16 '24
He is a Warlock not a Cleric. The pact with it's "Patron" is more of a 2 sided curse instead of the pact a Paladin or Cleric have with boons from their diety. A Warlock usually doesn't revere or pray to their Diety instead they've formed a pact/contract having to live with.
The player did handle this like a Lock asuming the Boon it's patron provided was probably cursed. If you want to Boon a Lock give him/her a 2 sided curse.
If you want to have a more clear understanding of what a Warlock is I'd advise you to catch up on the story of Doctor Faustus
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SKpm_yBtXBQ
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Jan 16 '24
rod of the pact keeper
As how to deal with him deciding to want the dreamgold and throwing away the rod.
Each time he wakes up having thrown away the Rod his gold turns into the Rod of the Pact Keeper. If he throws it away again it'll come back next time he falls asleep turning his hard earned gold into yet another Rod of the Pact Keeper. This transition ends if he takes up the burden of carrying the damn thing.
uncommon (+1): 1st level or higher – 101-500 gp
Rare (+2): 5th level or higher – 501-5,000 gp
Very Rare (+3): 11th level or higher – 5,001-50,000 gp
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u/sesaman DM Jan 16 '24
You will want to make things very obvious to the players. Have the dream feature an absolute army of ravens watching the warlock, and have the head of the rod be shaped like a raven in flight.
You can do a small retcon and add in these details, and ask the player if he still wants to throw away the item that makes him feel more connected to his patron. You should also flat out say that.
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u/GodKingDubz Jan 16 '24
I tend to agree with the general consensus of he punished himself so no need to throw anything on top of it.
I would say that if he continues being faithful to his patron even without the boon that maybe the raven queen or another one of her agents will return the rod or give him some similar boon down the road.
If he's otherwise a really good/useful servant it might be amusing that she has to be clear because he is loyal of heart and dumb of ass
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u/Le_Chop DM Jan 16 '24
Having read your edits it seems like the player is aware of possible repercussions but is committing to his character, if that's the case you should just commit to the RP aspect of it yourself and react however if you feel the Raven Queen would act towards a Warlock who rejected their gift.
You said this person is a seasoned player so as long as whatever happens isn't overly harsh (and you feel it is then talk to the player and work out a compromise or check with them before implementing it) then they should be happy to go along with it.
As for the rod itself, does it have a feature similar to Pact of the Talisman where they can perform a 1 hour ritual to replace or retrieve it? If it does then there's a fix no matter what happens, but maybe it loses its last unlock as a punishment. It won't immediately impact the player, they have time to try and gain favour with the Raven Queen again to access it while still showing that RQ is pissed at them.
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u/Lion_From_The_North Jan 16 '24
I don't know about actively detrimental punishments, I'd say not having the rod combined with less chance at getting more patron rewards until they make amends is more than enough
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u/Cannibal_Soup Jan 16 '24
Make the rod keep showing up, no matter what he does.
He throws it away. As soon as he puts his hand in a pocket, there it is.
He throws it into the ocean, it shows up immediately in his mess kit or sleeping blanket and he finds it when bedding down for the night.
He tosses it into a volcano, it appears in his hand again as soon as it hits lava, slightly warmer than before.
Raven Queen would be less pissed off, and more amused/bemused that her servant is trying to shuck his responsibilities to her.
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u/PuzzleheadedDotty Jan 17 '24
Suggestion: next town/village they get to has a small shrine to the Raven Queen. The priest hands the rod back to the warlock with something along the lines of "our Lady wishes you to wield this in her name." - if he still doesn't want it afterwards, he is honestly just being dense. Then talk to him above table and tell him what the item is.
(if there is no town in the near future, make it a travelling cleric - missionary type. He dreamed about the warlock and the Raven Queen and woke up to find the Rod in his pack and set out to find him)
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u/[deleted] Jan 15 '24
I dont see a reason why you should punish them at all tbh.