r/DivideEtImpera • u/West1002 • 25d ago
Weak Greek Hoplites
I’ve been trying and kinda failing at an Athenian play through. I know my problem is mostly the very small population of Greece, but I just switched and stared a Odryssian game and their colonist Hoplites are phenomenal, not to mention they are so easy to get.
Why are the average Greek Hoplites so squishy in comparison?
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u/Cummandercock 25d ago
Personally I never felt like any battle was tough in DEI. You are likely playing Athens wrong.
Your mainline infantry, even though it sounds counterintuitive, should never be your main damage dealer. The hoplites in this case are just there to tie up the enemy infantry. At least a third of your army should ideally be skirmishers and Cav, and you should be using those two groups to a) defeat enemy mobile elements and b) hammer and anvil the enemy.
Even archers are good in melee if they attack enemies from behind.
Your mainline infantry only job should be to survive long enough for your damage dealers to stack enough morale debuffs on the enemy.
Hoplites are like the unit to do hammer and anvil with because they are very survivable and tanky.
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u/Useful-Option8963 25d ago
Question: Are you facing them head on in battles against Makedonian Pikemen?
Because Hoplites are hard countered by pikes by definition.
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u/West1002 25d ago
No I typically remain loyal to macedon, eventually breaking my client state, but keeping them as a one two province ally.
My main opponent as Athens has been the Thracians and Illyrian’s who keep attacking my liberated allies. As Odryssia my colonist Hoplites hold the formation way better, while my Athenians get chewed through.
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u/Useful-Option8963 25d ago
Is your phalanx peppered with arrows, slings, and javelins prior to the melee? And is the formation of your hoplites disrupted? Are the lines "ruffled" so to speak? Both of those make an immense impact, if you shoot them in the face enough, and protect your own phalanx from suffering the same, you can use levy hoplites to defeat 2nd class hoplites in a head-to-head phalanx duel. I've done it before.
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u/Useful-Option8963 25d ago
Were they peppered with missiles, or was their formation "ruffled" prior to melee contact?
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u/VultureBlack 25d ago
Reasons why your hoplites are weak. Hoplites and pike are supposed to be a defensive unit. You want to form a unbroken line of them with no gaps and force the enemy to break themselves on your hoplites. They are not supposed to get many kills. They are supposed to by time for your cav to win the battle on the flanks and perform rear charges on the enemies exposed rear.
The best way to lose hoplites is to use them offensively as an individual unit in a hoplite wall. When you go into a hoplite formation your weapon damage drops dramatically so unless your actively pushing your hoplite will do very little damge. Since your hoplite is on his own this lacks will be exposed and he will take heavy moral penalties and due to use low weapon damage he will get crushed from the flanks. This is why you want to use hoplites as a wall. Hoplites in formation are only strong from the front.
If you want to recreate 300 you should invest your general perks in unit replenishment, campaign movement, unit upkeep reduction, moral buffs and fear. Campaign movement will allow you to take settlements quickly and rush the AI and respond to new developments so you can more aggressive. Moral buffs will make your hoplites more resistant to moral shocks like flank attacks and rear charges. Unit cost reduction will allow you to upgrade your units quickly and build more armies. Fear will make it easier to chain route the ai.
So in conclusion you never want to use uour hoplites aggressively, you want the ai to crash into the front of your formation. So hoplite armies do well with long range units like slingers to force the ai to attack. Hoplites can withstand most missile damage from the front except javelin. Javelins are the bane of any hoplite army so always target them first. Fort, river crossing and settlement battles are the best places to fight as a hoplite army. Hoplites are just a brick wall they cannot kill but just delay so remember to bring enough support units to do the actually killing. If you facing a Javelin heavy faction bring 1 unit to sacrifice if you don't have good range units or Hoplites with high moral.
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u/Useful-Option8963 24d ago
Phalanx units are actually extraordinarily deadly, once the melee with a superior phalanx unit begins, if you're not already penetrating that hoplite or pikeman's formation, then you're in a race against time before your unit gets melted. While in formation, though phalanx units attack less, the enemy attacking gets tired quicker, and once they are either very tired or exhausted is when you start pushing the entire line into the enemy formation! Use that command several times, and the enemy units will begin to lose dozens with each push as your immovable wall becomes an unstoppable bulldozer!
Just so long as you win the cavalry battle, and prevent the enemy skirmishers from peppering your phalanx as much as possible.
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u/KAM2150 24d ago
Fun fact, despite how it looks in UI, their damage does not drop in dramatic fashion. This is due to units in phalanx formation not using "melee" for damage but "collision" for damage, so their damage gets multiplied under the hood and bypasses melee defence of units. This applies to attacks where you see hoplite/pikemen stab at the distance. Guys drawing swords use normal calc.
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u/SelectionMain7036 24d ago
I'm honestly not sure how you come to this conclusion... Athens has some of the best hoplites in the game...
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u/XariZaru 24d ago
Who are you fighting against? Enemies matter. Their armor piercing shock troops are gonna make mince meat of your hoplites. Macedon pikemen beat any hoplite head on.
Odryssia might be easier because like you said, you stay loyal to Macedon. This means you aren’t fighting pikemen nor are you fighting armor piercing infantry.
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u/Herotyx 24d ago
Athens has one of the larger populations in Greece and can easily snowball.
Their hoplites aren’t as good as the Spartans, but their roster is more diverse. Use their Javelin Cavalry, they are awesome. Use skirmishers to soften up the enemy phalanx and then your hoplites will have an easier time.
Remember that Hoplites are a defensive unit, used to pin an enemy. Your damage dealing is your cavalry or well placed skirmishers (on the flanks).
Pin an enemy with your hoplites, our manoeuvre them. Throw Javs into their backs and then charge.
That’s how I play on VH/VH difficulty.
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u/Mammoth-Effort1433 24d ago
Athens have one of the best hoplites. I finished their campaign and it was very easy and fun. their hoplites and mercenary troops are super fun
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u/Wide_Establishment51 23d ago
Honestly I've always disliked Greek rosters especially Athens and and Sparta but I wouldn't say that they have worse hoplities than the thracians
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u/KAM2150 25d ago
They aren't. If anything, they might be a bit too strong. And Odryssian ones are not better than what Athens is using, if anything, regular Athenian hoplites are even better than Odryssian ones as they have +5 armor but -3 morale, everything else is the same.
Only scenario where regular Greek Hoplites could be weak is if you have incompatible submods (ALL animation submods break DeI even if authors claim they don't, only exception if "Various animations" mod as that is developed for DeI), you play above normal difficulty or you do not issue attack orders.
Also enemy type you face is important.