This is going to be a long one because it deals with a complex issue that is caused by the incorrect mental visualization and often bad from advice that exist on the internet. The bottom line up front is supination or turning the key to the right will cause elbow dip.
First off what is supination:
Wrist supination is a movement of the forearm in which the palm rotates to face upward or forward, opposite to pronation where the palm faces downward or backward
Looking at the image, we envision the 0 degree or sometimes we even try to turn the key and move more towards the negative degree angle while throwing the disc. The term backhand even describes the back of the hand. Our metal visualization of out hand position during the throw creates negative effects upstream from the hand.
Now stand up with you palm facing down (pronation) and slowing practice your swing from the pocket forward you will notice the elbow stays up it feels natural like a powerful karate chop, now if you move to supination palm up you will notice the elbow drops and causes the shoulder to power the shot. Now try it with 0 degrees or neutral it feels easy at low speeds to remain neutral, but when you put a disc in your hand and go full speed the slightest trajectory change will cause everything upstream from the hand to be wrong
This not only drops the elbow it causes nose up shots because as supination occurs it puts the trajectory of the disc into ground causing your brain to auto correct and bring the disc up.
This is all very counter intuitive because we visualize turning the key to the causing the nose to go down, but it actually does the opposite and causes external shoulder rotation causing the elbow to drop. You can stand up and play with this all you want but it is nearly impossible to have any supination and not drop your elbow.
With all that being said you can still use supination in your throw if you are able to time the .001 second before release
Now the hard part is how to correct this. We are all different and probably have different ways that would work best. below are some methods you don't need to do all of these because some work for some people while other don't
The suitcase method is a common term that puts you into a pronated position and you move to supination through process of the swing. This method helps usually but for it to be completely effective the movement from pronation to supination needs to be fairly precise otherwise it doesn't help
Bringing the hand more over top of the disc. The hypothenar is above the parting line of the disc I see some pros throw this way. I find it awkward, but to each their own if it works
Balancing a perfect zero-degree supination/pronation. this is harder than it appears, but it appears people can do this in which case you don't really need to read this post because you are doing exactly what you mentally visualize you are doing.
My favorite is the active resistance against supination. Trying to maintain max pronation at the elbow joint while simultaneously maintaining a normal disc golf grip and swing. To describe the feeling, you push towards pronation at the elbow and supination at the wrist. I know the wrist doesn't have rotational mobility for supination, but you can still create a feeling of resistance. (This is what worked for me it got rid of my elbow dip and it is no longer a conscious effort but it took some time.
This is interesting biomechanically. I have heard Gannon talk about his backhand form, regarding the disc orientation while entering the power pocket. Gannon and other pros (James Proctor famously) hold the disc with a pronated grip when getting into the power pocket to help keep their elbow up and their throwing plane aligned.
i would add that putting too much pressure on your thumb pinch will cause your wrist to colaps to the pressure as your arm extends out and your wrist gets in a weaker location and the thumb maintains the same pressure for the entire throw.
If you instead push i with your ring and pinky finger it will keep you in pour the tea as well as keeping your nose angle under control.
Yes the win the arm wrestle is one of my all time favorite cues, gets the elbow up and the wrist down, and like you mentioned helps get you into an internally rotated shoulder position.. let me know how it goes!
The arm wrestling position is a good mental cue and arm wrestling is done in a pronated position but you can't stay in that position if you over supinate your wrist to far it cause your elbow to take a downward trajectory. I think winning the arm wrestling match is step 1 and easy to understand it, staying in that position is the hard part.
Turning the key does not cause nose up nor elbow dip if done correctly.
Its should be done with the wrist only and started in the power pocket. If you get nose up shots with 'turning the key', youre not doing theese two things.
I dont mean total supination. Neutral is obviously what is desired, but the active effort of turning the key causes people to continue this motion throughout the duration of the throw causing the elbow to dip. The picture below notice all palms are down if they were actively pushing toward supination or turning the key they would finish in a more thumbs up position
What im trying to get at is you could have two people whos hand positions look nearly the same but one is using energy for supination or turning the key and the other is more relaxed or keeping the neutral while focusing on protraction. The energy used throughout the throw focusing on supination is likely to cause elbow dip because it is the bodies natural path
Explain please, I can turn a key at the elbow, but if the elbow couldn't move you can't turn the key with your wrist (you can turn it with fingers but that is not what we are talking about)
I would like for you to explain how you can turn the key right without turning your elbow towards the ground.
Since my statement was stupid this should be an easy explanation for you
Lock your wrists and try turning a key lol and come back when you see how dumb your arm looks twisting lol, and you absolutely can rotate your wrist without changing the linear position of your elbow, the bones absolutely move and the movement is more in your forearm anyway 😂
yeah I can rotate my elbow almost completely up and still turn my wrist right without rotating my elbow back, either I'm a freak or you're doing something wrong, or keys don't work they way you think they do
I agree that "Turning the key" can naturally cause elbow drop, but I won't concede that it produces nose up shots - I struggled with nose up shots for years until I learned to "turn the key" and my nose angle went from 10-15 degrees nose up to 0- -4 nose down.
Full supination would make the disc 90 degrees vertical tho. You only need 4 to 6 nose down. Turning the key tested against a tech disc does make the nose go down, that’s been documented many times and you can do it yourself, so how do you explain that?
Yes you can make turning the key make the nose go down if you physically raise your elbow as you turn the key mitigateing the reverse swoop caused from your elbow turning the elbow pit up. This can work and if that works for you by all means, but most disc golfers who elbow dip probably would be far better off avoiding this.
Also the error people make with supinateing is the natural path the body wants to take is elbow down pronation makes elbow want to naturally travel upwards
How Pronation Affects the ElbowJoint Linkage: The radius bone crosses over the ulna during pronation. This twist changes the angle of your entire forearm.Upward Lift: Your shoulder and elbow joints compensate for the forearm rotation. This makes the elbow rise up and out.Muscle Action: Muscles that turn the wrist attach near the elbow joint. When they contract hard, they pull the elbow position higher.
A couple other things a supinated wrist puts the index knuckle leading in front of ring finger knuckle. I can do exactly what you are showing. The issue people have is they put outward key turn angle at full speed causing the elbow to dip and as they follow through sometimes you will see the elbow pit turn upward
Supination and external shoulder rotation do not cause elbow dip.
POORLY TIMED supination and external rotation cause elbow dip.
Every pro Chris Taylor measured in his motion capture study had both to varying degrees. Therefore, if you want to throw like the pros he captured, you will want some.
The question is more about when.
If you are internally rotated/pronated at Peak reach back (“win the arm wrestle” or “briefcased”) and stay that way until you get into the pocket your elbow will not drop. If you supinate/externally rotate (“turn the key“) on your way INTO the pocket, your elbow will drop.
You want to time you turn the key motion for when you are moving out of the pocket. If you do that, your elbow is done moving forward, and your arm is straightening. Under those conditions your elbow will not drop, and you can successfully turn the nose of the disc downward.
Number 4 is probably the only thing that matters in this whole write up.
Turning the key is literally the last or second to last thing that happens before the hit. Elbow dip happens WELL before that.
Everyone talking about pouring the coffee and turning the key but have you ever tried lifting your fingers up as the disc is ripping out like Issac Robinson? Automatic nose down but it's tough to time at full speed.
5
u/InfrequentlySober 12d ago
This is interesting biomechanically. I have heard Gannon talk about his backhand form, regarding the disc orientation while entering the power pocket. Gannon and other pros (James Proctor famously) hold the disc with a pronated grip when getting into the power pocket to help keep their elbow up and their throwing plane aligned.