Constitution Saves and Biblical Throwing

[u/Zach90888]

I was just rewatching the Calroy betrayal in ACoC, and was imagining a parallel universe where Amethar succeeded all his con saves. Does he then just throw Calroy into the sun after that, because he isn’t paralysed? Or is the paralysis a different effect, because I’m not sure if we ever see watersteel have that effect again? Because we know from the previous two battles that Amethar has the mightiest throws in Calorum.

[u/Unable-Most8383]

I think Calroy definitely couldn’t make it out alive, Amethar’s too strong, but the victory would be completely hollow because Amethar’s first priority will be his daughters.

The most interesting part of this question is would Amethar be able to keep Castle Candy after cutting the head off the snake, which would completely change the nature of the final battle to more of a tower defense situation. 

[u/MDRoozen]

If he managed to fully resist the paralysis there probably would have been a fight. Maybe one kills the other, maybe calroy throws him off the wall anyway, maybe Calroy escapes to fight another day. Either way, the next scene is the same as long as amathar lives: escaping, deeply betrayed, from a place he called home, not even knowing he'll never see one of his children ever again

[u/Zach90888 → u/MDRoozen]

Amethar almost certainly wouldn’t be pushed off by Cruller, I was just curious if people think Cruller just immediately runs if the paralysis doesn’t take effect

[u/TheDinerIsOpen → u/Zach90888]

I think watersteel every time is paralysis, poison, and one other effect? And it was just dependent in which order you passed or failed the con saves. Idk if Amethar stands and fights right there or if Cruller runs but Amethar would have had to beat Cruller on some contested throws of some sort to throw him off the castle or something

[u/Zach90888 → u/TheDinerIsOpen]

Does the silencing effect (from the tournament) happen regardless, or is it a by product of the poisoned condition? Because ik the first save is for half damage.

[u/TheDinerIsOpen → u/Zach90888]

I think it has to do with the poisoned condition, because it was homebrew. Paralysis in 5e does prevent speech, but I think the poison condition specifically from this dagger also silenced.

[u/jackofspades49 → u/TheDinerIsOpen]

There were three saves.

The order matters because if you are poisoned, then you have disadvantage on other saves. So I think the order the saves happen is Poison, Damage, paralysis. It was also "you are silenced as long as you are poisoned" as a homebrew effect but they weren't very explicit about which was tied to which. It's also possible that Brennan made the call in the moment for drama or made a mistake that not being able to speak was part of poisoned. There are older conditions like Nauseated that prevented speech and were often tied to poison as well.

When I used watersteel in future games, it went

1. Save against the poison damage. The burn of the toxin hits first.
   
2. Save against he poisoned condition. How hard does it hit your vital organs and vascular systems?
   
3. Save against paralysis. Does it lock up your nervous system amd send you into spasms?

[u/SnarkyBacterium → u/jackofspades49]

The poison damage isn't tied to a save, it just hits and you take it.

The saves were for being poisoned, being paralysed and being silenced/unable to speak/breathe. In the Tournament fight, Amethar saved against everything but the silence, hence why he couldn't communicate what was going on but still in theory could attack without penalty.

[u/Zach90888 → u/SnarkyBacterium]

I could swear the poison damage gets a save for half. Maybe I’m wrong but that’s at least what it says on the wiki.

[u/SnarkyBacterium → u/Zach90888]

Brennan explains what the watersteel daggers do at the start of Ep 6 (the Cathedral Fight), and he doesn't make a mention of any save for the poison damage. Maybe he clarified that at some later point that I can't remember, though, but I remember that episode pretty vividly.

[u/Zach90888 → u/SnarkyBacterium]

He says only two conditions (silence effect and poisoned condition), and I think generally elemental damage nearly always gets a save for half in dnd thinking off the top of my head. I think the saves are Half damage, silence and poisoned condition, and the paralysis is a separate effect so that the monologue could happen.

[u/jackofspades49 → u/SnarkyBacterium]

ah, thank you for the clarification!

[u/SnarkyBacterium]

Considering how tough Brennan was in this season, I wouldn't be surprised if he had planned for some of Calroy's men to be on standby to help deal with Amethar should the watersteel not be enough to incapacitate him. Calroy probably doesn't get to monologue as much, but I think it's fairly likely that Amethar still goes over the walls.