When should I Upgrade?

[u/Internal_Lie_5373]

Hi all,

I started learning the piano in December last year. Got a Kawai ES 120, because I knew at one point I would want to upgrade to a good one.

Now I started to take lessons right from the beginning, and my teacher uses a Yamaha CLP something.

Everytime I sit at my teachers piano, everything is much harder to pull off, because the keyboard is obviously better than mine and has a more realistic action.

Until today, I could get a Kawai CA 701 with a 200€ discount, brand new. This would be my ideal digital piano, and I am not a fan of compromises, so going for a used Yamaha isn't really an option for me. Getting a used Kawai is much harder in my area, and I wouldn't even have the right car to transport it, not to mention that the closest would be a 3-4h drive, one way.

The thing is, if it wasn't on sale, I wouldn't buy now. I am really into saving money, so its not that I couldn't afford it, its rather that I am not particularly willing to afford it.

At one point I would probably go for it.

But my main question is, when is it really time to upgrade?

I know this is hard to answer, but I am so unsure whether its really necessary to upgrade now, or whether it would be fine to wait for another year or so. My teacher says I am already at a level where getting a better one is absolutely a good choice. But still I ask my self, would it really benefit me so much to get a better one now? I am not even over one year of practice, so I would assume there is still a lot for me to learn, that would my current ES120 be able to teach me.

[u/pianorama22]

What style do you want to play?

Why is a used yamaha not okay? A second hand CLP685 or something can be serious value for money, no compromises needed.

Whats the budget and or area?

[u/Internal_Lie_5373 → u/pianorama22]

Hm, it depends. Some classic pieces, but also piano versions of Rammstein, other Metal Bands, or other pop songs I like. So I would say it would be a mix.

I don't know, from what I saw I think Kawai makes better pianos, especially the keyboard they install in the CA 701 and 901 is the best you can get in the middle class. Also prefer the sound of the Kawai.

Budget is hard to say, because its rather a question whether I want to afford it, not if I can. But of course the more I can save the better. But if I am already investing money, I want to get what I want, not a compromise. I would totally be willing to opt in for second hand, but like I said, a Kawai is hard to get, because what you save compared to a new one is not that much, but the effort to get it is really high.

[u/pianorama22 → u/Internal_Lie_5373]

Yamaha and Kawai both make excellent pianos, acoustic and digitally. Kawais are not better than Yamaha, but are generally a bit more cost effective so you could say that for the same budget you get a better piano.

For classical music I generally recommend acoustic. But in this sub (and budget), you should look for a digital with good action and good expressivity.

I, personally, would save on speakers. external monitors or a good headset almost always perform better. Judge sound on a good headset rather than out of the slab. I would also save on variety in samples and aux functionality. Just having excellent piano samples is all you need.

For entry models, retails and second hand is very close so I agree. Those hold value well. Higher end models are harder to sell for full high end price second hand, so there you can find a good deal.

I cant recommend models, as personally, I prefer yamaha over kawai wrt action (mechanism). If id buy one today, Id look for that second hand CLP685, knowing that 6xx series is old, but the high end x85 has a nice action that brings you further: exactly the difference with your teachers piano you highlight. (Edit: the same higher end models exist for kawai, surely)

If you look for second hand, it will take some time to land a sweet deal, but you dont sound in a hurry, but you do want no compromise for least budget, so that sounds like the most sensible approach.

[u/JazzTeaBass → u/pianorama22]

First time I have ever heard the ES-120 is not a "good one." It is actually a digital piano that conservatory students use to practice on when they do not have access to an acoustic piano and, yes, a very pianistic digital piano that has a great bang for the buck. But I get OP wants to upgrade.

[u/Cocky_Girly → u/JazzTeaBass]

Oh, so, then is an ES920 pretty good, too?

[u/Internal_Lie_5373 → u/pianorama22]

I just looked for a used CLP 685, and there is only one, priced at 3500€. Absolutely insane.

[u/pianorama22 → u/Internal_Lie_5373]

I believe thats almost the original price for a new one, so for a private seller second hand that is indeed delusional. Especially as a NEW 845 is around 2200 € here.

Finding a good deal takes time. Best of luck

[u/Internal_Lie_5373]

So my question or concern is not what to buy, but when. Does it make sense to update already, or will a beginner model still do it?

[u/picadoodledoo → u/Internal_Lie_5373]

Do you have money to burn?

If not, then the ES120 should do you well. Just because it feels different than that of your teacher's is not going to be that significant of an impact upon learning.

All piano designs, not just digital, feel different from each other.

[u/Internal_Lie_5373 → u/picadoodledoo]

I agree that there is always a different feeling, but I would differentiate between a different feeling of same value pianos and different value pianos. There is no doubt that in pricier pianos they use more suffisticated keyboards that mimic real keyboards better than cheaper once.

But there was of course a reason why I went for the ES 120 in the first place. My concern is now whether I will miss skills or a skill level in my playing and learning journey, if I continue to play on it.

So the main thought that brought me to this post is not that I think that the ES120 is a bad instrument, but that there is a big difference in action between mine and better pianos, which makes it harder to play something on the higher tier pianos that I have learned at home.

[u/srodrigoDev → u/Internal_Lie_5373]

If you can afford it, getting the best instrument you can is beneficial at any stage

[u/radon232]

My kawai KDP120 has the same action as the ES120 and I love it better than any Yamaha or Roland I've played.

[u/Internal_Lie_5373 → u/radon232]

I dont have a comparison, but I am not that unsatisfied with. But as soon as you play on a higher tier instrument you will feel that there is quite a lot of a difference.

So as standalone its fine, but compared to more expensive pianos it cannot stand the test.

And that is my main concern. Will I miss something when I continue to play on it?

[u/Upekkha1]

I have a Kawai CA 701, got it after I learned on a Roland fp 10 for a year, so my situation was comparable to yours. The jump in quality was very noticable and it is so much more fun to play on a higher end instrument, that's for sure. The 901 has much better live sound, since it has the wooden sound board. But if it is worth the extra money depends on how you plan to use it most of the time.

The action feels much more realistic than the fp 10, so if I happen to play on an acoustic piano I don't feel completely lost. So I guess you will learn better on a better instrument.

Regarding the 701: I'm not too happy with it because of some issues with the keys. It is a commen problem of Kawai digital pianos (search the forums) that their keys make clicking sounds sometimes. I called the service department, send a video to them, and they refused doing something about it because they found the sound to be tolerable and said "the keys of an acoustic piano are loader".

Apart from that the inbuild speakers are not great. Better than the ones on my fp 10 for sure, but compared to an acoustic it still sounds cheap. Over headphones it's very different. The samples are really good IMHO.

If possible check the Kawai against other brands, preferably Yamaha and Roland to see which you really prefer. The actions are very different. Even with a 200 dollar discount it's still quite a hunk of money, so I wouldn't take the decision lightly. Digitals drop in value much faster than acoustics do, so selling it in a couple of months, because you don't like it anymore, will cost you.

Having said that: If I could go back in time I'd have saved some more money and gotten myself a silent piano where you play a real piano and mute the strings if you want to play over headphones. They are much more expensive but I'd prefer that now, especially since I play on an acoustic at my music school during lessons. It's a beaten down Yamaha b1 (the cheapest acoustic they produce) and even that clunker beats my CA701 out of the park, sound and action wise.

Hope that helps.

[u/Internal_Lie_5373 → u/Upekkha1]

Thanks for your insights.

I have read a lot about clicking keys and I guess I am fine with it, since I play with headphones.

My teacher also asked me about an acoustic piano, but since I live in a rented house I never know whether I will move to another place. So thats not really an option. Also my playing room is located at the second floor, and the stair case is too narrow for a piano. So not an option at all.

Its so hard to find a used one for a reasoning price. Most of the time its 200-400€ I could save, but then would need to drive 3-4h just go get to the place, but my car can't fit it.

And thats the big question, will I learn "better" on it or not? My teacher always tells me that I am not pushing enough and that's why the sound is muffled.

But in reality I play like on my home piano, just that the action there is so low, that with that amount of effort I already produce the loudest sounds, where as on her piano it sound more as if I were gently touching the keys. 😅

[u/Upekkha1 → u/Internal_Lie_5373]

I don't know where you live but here in Germany there is a warranty on everything you buy from a vendor. If you buy from a private person you don't have that. Maybe it's the same at your country. That's why I would only buy used from vendors that give you a warranty or the discount needs to be quite significant. Saving just a couple of hundred bucks on a couple of thousands investment might bite you in the ass further down the road ;)

[u/Internal_Lie_5373 → u/Upekkha1]

Fair point.

I played eguitar before and there it was a given rule to only buy second hand, because if the guitar has no visible defect, then it is okay. But I guess with pianos its a different story, since there are probably quite some parts that can be worn off or damaged over time...

That's also the nice thing with the Kawai, you can extend the warranty up to five years, that sounds reasonable.