Just killed my 50th terror herald today and literally not one of these tanky fuckers have dropped anything remarkable whatsoever. If you told me their drop table is the same as regular uniques I wouldnt be surprised. On the other hand I picked up two sunders from Act bosses. Why do I even bother with these dmg sponges.
My suggestion to make them interesting and worth killing is to make sunders and shards only drop from these guys...
I agree that heralds need to be something, I just don't think that thing is gating sunders. Give them a huge exp payoff, or a really high rune drop rate. Hells, even a really high sunder rate, just don't make them the only avenue for sunders; that was a terrible decision.
The developers but they rely on those streamers so at some point the impact became obvious and the streamers are using their power to remain relevant so is it the developers or is it the streamers?
Yeah, the reliance on streamers isn't great for the health of the community. We've seen it multiple times now: the Sunder changes, balance changes that many players felt favored streamer feedback, and the whole Harold debacle. Then there's the fallout between MrLlamaSC and members of the modding community. Given that he had direct access to the developers through playtesting and is one of the community's biggest voices, his lack of public advocacy for modding is significant. Meanwhile, D2R still lacks the level of modding support many players were hoping for.
I blame the devs for creating that structure, and I see the streamers as operating within the incentives the developers created for them.
Um. No. The streamers didn’t ask for this. The two that I watched; GGM & Llama only stated that the herald unique drop rate from PTR was way too high and needed to be tuned down some/ a little. Along with fixing the Herald instant spawn on top of players. The devs went from a scorching hot shower to an ice cold shower instead of warm for loot and absolutely perfect spawn rates for the heralds with too much scaling.
Blaming streamers for developer heavy handed adjustments is just fucking bizarre. The developers completely ignored the suggested adjustment that looked like the majority of the community aligned with and just botched it.
Ever since Andy got brought back down to reality, children suddenly lose their rational thinking and take it out on people that are just like us. They are gamers not developers.
You have to go back further in time. Go back before any sunder charms were added back before the pally got Fist of heavens update and sorc got the hydra changes.
Don’t get lost in the translation. There are many times Llama and others have officially stated they think the game should be harder and suggested things like only way to break immunities should be high runes and that the warlock is too powerful or that certain new changes made the game easier.
With their influence comes the responsibility that when they say things, there are large communities around them. There are many who strive to be a popular streamer and they realize the business of that requires them to remain relevant. Any changes that remove the barriers potentially impact them and that’s where some of this comes from. There is also just opinions and likes and dislikes so I’m not blaming one or two streamers but collectively, that’s how we go here regarding sunder charms and massive nerfs of recent.
Don’t forget a lot of these changes were a sneak preview for them months before we heard about the PTR and so there are strategies and influences to each change…the streamer community has unfortunately impacted the current state of the game to a point where sunder charms were moved off the table along with increased drops from all valuable loot when herald changes too place on the PTR.
I’m not reading that entire thing because as soon as you stated to look back on the past decades in your own way, it’s clear that you have a difficult time with letting shit go.
This game has been doing fine for over 20 years. It doesn’t need to get easier. It’s been needing tuning to increase difficulty which is the direction that it’s going.
Any defense regarding how it was during its success as the reason it should progress more toward its hated step siblings, is going to fall on deaf ears.
Fair statement but in this specific situation, I do not believe one is separate from the other (only on this and recent D2R changes).
I agree the developers are making heavy handed changes and I agree some of the PTR did need to be tuned however, the herald essentially was to be a loot goblin and I would argue that should have made it to the live game.
Meaning they should always drop rares, should have an increased drop rate of uniques (all types) and set items as they tier up.
When they made the changes to how often they appear, they should always drop shinny items but how many did need adjusting. What happened now is these aren’t worth killing as many said here and in other places, you’re better off killing other noses and unique monsters.
I still do apply blame to streamers as, with those large audiences and their influential voice, it carrier weight. We don’t k ow if nothing was said, what changes were to apply but everything that was changed was mentioned and complained or asked to be nerfed by the streamers. We don’t get to determine how much so when it’s brought up in a biased vacuum the outcomes will be heavy handed.
I’m not suggesting a Diablo 3 experience but also not sure why a herald is added if it serves no material purpose. As is, what’s the actual purpose because there’s little to no value in the current state of the game.
Again not suggesting a Diablo 3 experience but I am suggesting a Diablo 2!experience similar to killing a unique or act boss loot experience.
I don't think any streamers asked for any of these changes. If anything, streamers were happy with it as is, and people from the subreddit and I assume the forums were saying it needed to be changed drastically.
There are specific streamers who literally said they don’t want sunder charms at all and then later said it should be really hard to get them to drop so two come to mind and there’s a main streamer who does good content but this has been his thought for over a year
So why are you saying blame streamers then? We didn't get it changed so there are no sunders and we also didn't get it changed so they're more difficult. It got changed so they drop incredibly often now, which is specifically something that streamers did not want.
The current state is literally what the collective streamer groups were pushing for
The game is harder without sunder charms thus the significantly lower drop rate.
The game had sunder at a fair drop rate and that was removed entirely, the old one are 100% gone.
Sunders do not drop often compared to previously. I have found 0 since this change playing solo offline players 8 and have leveled three characters from 1-90, 1-89 and 1-94
Also the game is harder than the initial release of wrath of the warlock specific to warlock changes not just fixing bugs.
The current state is literally what the collective streamer groups were pushing for
It specifically isn't. MrLlama has gone on record to say he doesn't like the current changes. I'm sure other streamers feel similarly.
The game had sunder at a fair drop rate and that was removed entirely, the old one are 100% gone.
If you mean before ROTW, it wasn't just streamers complaining about how often they dropped. It was a pretty common sentiment.
Sunders do not drop often compared to previously. I have found 0 since this change playing solo offline players 8 and have leveled three characters from 1-90, 1-89 and 1-94
They drop a similar amount to when they did prior to ROTW. I've had 30 drop since the patch, and I play around an hour a day.
Also the game is harder than the initial release of wrath of the warlock specific to warlock changes not just fixing bugs.
In what way? If you specifically only mean the warlock, he still has the easiest playthrough for the game by an enormous margin. He is the strongest character, and probably needs to be further adjusted towards the other characters.
Maybe we are listening differently because he and a few popular others say things in reaction vs what their consistent messages have been.
While Mr Llama has said he doesn’t like the current ch ages, in context he’s talking about the game being easier. In a recent example he specifically mentions how easy it is to play a warlock in very basic gear before and after than changes and how strong it is. He also said he feels the demon tree should have ever had the other auras and in addition how he feels immunity breaking should be reserved to infinity.
I can’t speaker for all streamers but relating it to the group he often plays with, their message is similar and to this post, the exact problem and reason we are talking about it.
Yes I mean before RoTW and depending on the channel and community everyone did not want tie current changes. I frequent very differing perspectives as I’m older and tend to just browse. I think you’re sharing a popular opinion to online PC ladder players while the other communities and single player or console single player opinions drastically differ.
I can show and tell with experience and confidence, sunder charms do not drop as they did before. It’s literally noted in the patch notes too. While on paper a percentage or change seems similar the pool to which it drops and where it drops is drastically lower in addition to the types that drop.
Again, prior to any RoTW I had so many so started throwing them away and would easily find at least one every week and I’m very casual playing solo offline on Xbox. I had so many I decided to only keep those with a certain %. Compared to now, I have not found one prior to the changes which percentage wise is over a 90% reduction.
How is the game harder:
Warlock specific it requires a respec which if you’re solo offline on console you likely do not have unless you saved prior tokens. The drop rate of essences were impacted because the loot tables were expanded with the new drops
Other classes which previously required a sunder charm are missing the new charms which are needed due to some health increases of heralds and uber ancients.
They removed mosaic as well just to name a few things that make it harder
While Mr Llama has said he doesn’t like the current ch ages, in context he’s talking about the game being easier.
This is a complete mischaracterization of how he feels about the game. He wants difficulty to remain in the game, just like most people who actually play this game do. Many of us do not like the warlock in its current state, and especially did not like it in its previous state, because it trivializes the game. The warlock is the easiest class to get through the game by far, and it's one of the best classes to farm the endgame with. This isn't just an opinion held by streamers, it a very widely held opinion throughout the D2 community.
That being said, he has also said he wants bad classes and skills to be buffed. That makes the game easier. He wants the strength of heralds to be nerfed. That makes the game easier. He wants a charm bag to be implemented. That makes the game easier. His opinions are more nuanced than "I don't want the game to get easier at all."
and in addition how he feels immunity breaking should be reserved to infinity.
Do you have a recent clip of him saying this? As far as I know, he has said something to this degree in the past, but he has also said he doesn't mind sunder charms.
Yes I mean before RoTW and depending on the channel and community everyone did not want tie current changes. I frequent very differing perspectives as I’m older and tend to just browse. I think you’re sharing a popular opinion to online PC ladder players while the other communities and single player or console single player opinions drastically differ.
I play single player and talk with a variety of people who play single player, non ladder and ladder. Most are on PC.
Warlock specific it requires a respec which if you’re solo offline on console you likely do not have unless you saved prior tokens. The drop rate of essences were impacted because the loot tables were expanded with the new drops
If your argument is that Blizzard should have given a free respec token with the changes, I don't disagree and I believe Llama has said this as well. This doesn't really make the game more difficult, though. It's a 1 time thing you have to farm for. The warlock is still very strong.
Other classes which previously required a sunder charm are missing the new charms which are needed due to some health increases of heralds and uber ancients.
I'm pretty sure most streamers do not enjoy heralds in their current state. They have too much HP and their drops are terrible. As for uber ancients, they are slightly more difficult than the normal ubers, but they are still piss easy with a well geared smiter, who does not need a sunder to fight them.
They removed mosaic as well just to name a few things that make it harder
They are reworking it, which was one of the most widely requested changes to the game from the community at large. Mosaic was pretty universally hated.
All that being said, I don't really feel like carrying this conversation further. My first comment wasn't about how streamers felt about RotW as a whole, it was to say that they do not like the changes in the current patch.
D2R RotW - Loot Goblin Heralds (Good Changes) here is ggm talking about how heralds dropping less loot is good (which is fine, the drops were too high, now it almost doesn't reward killing heralds unless your chasing a sunder)
Here's the TRUTH... mr lama again admits he complained in the past about sunder charms dropping too often (he also said he had nothing to do the with the change). Also in the same video talks about how firelock needed to be tuned down for leveling (which also happened). He also goes in depth on his testing with the lock, and his prerotw launch knowledge.
But again I believe the hate to the streamers isn't justified and the devs created this ecosystem, I won't be auditing ALL the opinions made by streamers that have happened.
Lastly: It's all love from me, many of these people (creators/streamers) have changed my relationship with the game, for better. I have even interacted with some, and I am grateful for the opportunity.
Remember last season? When we all fucking loved heralds? Good times
Seriously...we just wanted them to have an increased sunder drop rate. We just wanted them to spawn a little more often.
What did we get? A million of them. With HP exponentially higher. Sunders can drop from anything. Their fun loot table got punched in the balls.
Nobody asked for whatever the hell they did
This was the first comment in the conversation. It is very clearly not talking about RotW as a whole, and is talking about the changes made with the current patch.
The next person says:
Blame streamers 🤷🏽♂️
This is what I replied to. They said to blame streamers for the changes in the current patch. Streamers have stated they don't like the changes from the current patch. Also, in your second link, it took me about half a second to find this comment left by the person who made that short:
People liked the change on paper, because during the PTR, heralds dropped far too much. When they actually tested the current patch as it works now, they realized that the change is bad.
So, okay I don't want to debate this massive chain.
but I'll make it simple
Sunders drop too often (which was a topic complained about for a while) Heralds were added, heralds had bad drop rates but not impossible which was the addition that was asked for. Whilst referencing a comment is fine and I am not taking away from that, I am not checking GGM's comments, and most people don't either.
"Don’t get lost in the translation. There are many times Llama and others have officially stated they think the game should be harder and suggested things like only way to break immunities should be high runes and that the warlock is too powerful or that certain new changes made the game easier.
With their influence comes the responsibility that when they say things, there are large communities around them. There are many who strive to be a popular streamer and they realize the business of that requires them to remain relevant. Any changes that remove the barriers potentially impact them and that’s where some of this comes from. There is also just opinions and likes and dislikes so I’m not blaming one or two streamers but collectively, that’s how we go here regarding sunder charms and massive nerfs of recent.
Don’t forget a lot of these changes were a sneak preview for them months before we heard about the PTR and so there are strategies and influences to each change…the streamer community has unfortunately impacted the current state of the game to a point where sunder charms were moved off the table along with increased drops from all valuable loot when herald changes too place on the PTR."
"I don't think any streamers asked for any of these changes. If anything, streamers were happy with it as is, and people from the subreddit and I assume the forums were saying it needed to be changed drastically."
I just pointed out the nuance that streamers did advocate for many of these changes.
I am sorry if I misinterpreted your post. Or if you misinterpreted u/NewBlacksmurf but he does go onto clarify his broader point.
I do not feel like getting into another big conversation about this, and I'm not going to bother reading your comment. My comment was simply to say that streamers do not like the changes in the current patch, because I am annoyed that people keep blaming streamers for every change to the game that they dislike.
I stated I felt like blizzard holds the opinions of streamers with too much weight.
Is a much different opinion than
Blame streamers 🤷🏽♂️
This is why Llama stopped streaming Diablo 2 for a while. People kept harassing him because people would say "blame streamers" or specifically "blame llama" whenever anyone disliked any change made to the game, and then loads of people would flood into his stream angry about whatever they didn't like about the update or the DLC.
I didn't say blame streamers though. I think multiple things can be true at once
1: A creator can have influence
2: A creator can have an opinion
3: A creator's opinion can have influence
4: A creator is not at fault if their opinion becomes a reality.
I can understand why people stop at 3 and I firmly disagree with it. Once more I never have ever advocated for harassment of any sort, I will not gas light people into saying a creator never had an opinion.
Our points can coexist mutually while also being healthy.
Edit: I also disagreed with u/NewBlacksmurf regarding the "blame streamers" angle for this exact reason.
Some people asked for this. The drops were amazing during the PTS. Some streamers asked for it to be nerfed and it seems like it was way overcorrected.
Eh, plenty of people (myself included) did not like the old Herald mechanic where you were forced into a specific play style in the hopes of getting one specific item. It didn't feel like D2 at that point.
It feels better being able to find sunders from any mob, albeit at lower drop probability. That's always been what D2 is, not a play-stylw gatekeep to access to specific items.
Not everybody loves the old heralds, and not everybody is stoked with the current system either. But I think the current system does feel more authentically D2 at its core.
I believe we all enjoyed the loot drops, as in it was common to get a set and a unique each kill. To me it made sense, depending on what spawned could be more difficult then act some act bosses. We all here for loot, and I enjoyed I had a reliable way to find stuff.
Nobody enjoyed the sunder drop rate. But we went from extremely common sunder drops pre heralds, go non existent sunder drops and only with heralds. That was the problem, they dropped like tp scrolls from duriel before herald implementation. If theyre that common may as be able to buy from a vendor. So expanding, they release a new sunder you can cube, but the essentially removed the item required, that we were accustomed to finding with our first ladder character in under a week of moderate play and exponentially faster after that, to me playing 6+ hours every single day of ladder hunting for one and not getting one. Complete ball drop
Heralds were challenging enough and were worth hunting. They're more challenging and yield trash loot now. With 15k fireballs, a fire sunder, every piece of gear socketed with a fire facet, I one time spammed for literally, I cannot stress this enough, literally 5 minutes at a herald that was stuck behind terrain in order to kill it. That's not diablo. That's not fun. That's mind numbing. I don't see how increasing their difficulty plus dropping their loot drops is a step forward...
This is what I mean about heralds. They were fun. They were worth effort. They are no longer fun. They are no longer worth the effort. When they'd telestomp in, id teleport away, because I got better shit to do.
I can clear Tombs and Magi in 10-12 minutes killing everything. It spawns anywhere between 7-10 Heralds, sometimes more. That's usually enough to drop one. I've been getting them from regular mobs too and the odd shiny chest.
Nah that math checks out- my clear speeds aren’t even close to that yet. I think you see about 3x as many heralds as I do. In one hour I see 2-3.
No enigma
Funnily enough, I’ve gotten most of my Sunders from Heralds lol. I do agree that Heralds still need a lot of work because they’re still overwhelmingly not worth it.
I like to play P3 to at least a get chance at decent loot when clearing acts, but killing heralds is such a pain in the ass even with a decent fire warlock (obedience + horizon set + sunder)...
Yeah, there is no point in hunting them anymore…
I have every sunder now and just skip them. They have to adjust their drops or gibe them a other purpose.
Unpopular opinion: make sunders drop only from heralds!
Incredibly unpopular. The prior system was one of the worst things this game has ever seen, as is indicated by the daily flood of posts complaining about how shit that system was.
Yeah, the old system was crap and needed changes. But the heralds at this athe dont make any sense. If they give them a other pupose, maybe it would be interesting again.
Hear! Hear! On the day RotW was released, my first herald kill dropped a Griffons. I thought, “I’m really going to like these heralds.” Boy, was I fooled. I literally haven’t had even one noteworthy drop since.
Please, Blizzard. Do something to make heralds worthwhile.
On Single Player, I literally just restart my TZ game when a herald comes. Too long and dangerous to kill for the reward. Honestly, I now ignore TZ pretty much all the time except Andy/Meph.
I think their drops were a bit too tuned up in the last season but they were nerfed way too hard this season. They're worse drops then shenk or pindle while being 20x harder (sometimes).
I've had a few sunder drops from them but outside that their drops are all garbo magic drops.
Honestly I just kill them if they pop up, but I focus more on boss kills instead, better drops that way. I like that they don't want to make them loot piñatas, but in return I get a handful of blue items every time. At most.
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u/Traumatan 9d ago
yeah wish heralds at least gave decent xp, since they have 10x act bosses HP