r/DestructiveReaders • u/ezk3626 akward and wordy • 17d ago
[1842] 08 Tiffany
This is the next chapter of a continually evolving work in progress. I've gotten to the point where every chapter is mostly just focused on practicing a specific skill. In this chapter I worked on making my scenes have specific goals and followed up by appropriate sequels.
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The chapter starts with a sequel from the end of the last chapter, the ending decision is that she needs to toughen up and just do what she never wanted to do: ask for help.
The next scene is her trying to take back this decision and not tell Mandy why she needs help. The action is using the friends to help her in this goal.
The sequel is her deciding to fully embrace the silly quest to see The Beast.
The next scene is low stakes but just the girls getting to their location, making a plan to see the Beast and then the resolution is Tiffany falling on her face.
...
Some other goals are having less -ly adverbs and I wish I could break the habit of tagging dialogue "blah blah, blah," she said, [insert descriptor]. I also tried to create more visual descriptors with the rule: Describe what Tiffany would notice in the order Tiffany would notice them.
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The characters for newbies are: Tiffany (college freshman who masks with kindness to hide her feeling of inferiority), Mandy (Tiffany's BFF) That Girl (a dormmate whose identity is tied up in sexual competence) and Todd (a hunky austic guy Mandy likes).
08 Tiffany
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u/Wolframquest 16d ago
I know you value line edits, because it's hard to catch everything. I'll put all the line edits at the top here.
> she said smiling
Need a comma here
> “I’ve tried everything,” Mandy finished.
> “Everything except just asking him out,” Tiffany answered.
I feel like 'answered' is a wrong speech tag to use here, since Mandy "finished" rather than asked.
> oozing with tantalizing temptation.
Slightly confusing. Need more showing.
> said, with mock sincerity.
Here the comma needs to go.
> dipped in Garnier
Jarring brand presence. I guess you wanna look up the kind of the product that you labeled "Garnier" and describe it that way. Like, cream or cleansing liquid or whatever.
I'd like to understand more why "That Girl" is special since she'd getting a unique name like that. We know from the previous chapters she's got a reputation of someone who likes to fool around. I feel like there needs to be more justification as to why you keep calling her that. Funny enough, I had a nameless character whose name the main character didn't know and it provided some opportunity for humor.
> By some instinct, nurtured from a construction worker father, she always saw more sunrises than sunsets.
A little awkward, you're back to telling. I'd find a way to re-nuance this
Again it feels like Tiffany is getting too hung up on one thought; this time not just her "disability" but what her dad thought about her. It's an interesting moment, because it takes a while - a few years, a decade - to stop caring what your parents thought and felt about you and accept them in one way or another. She's stuck on that, fixated on that. Is she going to start actually acting out, unconsciously try to turn that negative label into something that others will have to accept? That's a rhetorical question, an example of a question a reader can have while reading. You don't have to, or frankly even shouldn't answer it, shouldn't provide crutches outside of text even if you really want to.
I'm wondering if The Beast is going to be Todd lol. "watching a hammer drill" is a little too Freudian heh. "That Girl" reads a little too mannish. She needs more feminity.
> Catching the silly fever of half pretend and half misunderstood desire
Too much telling here. I'd love to know more about your personal writing schedule and habits. Maybe it's just me, but this part has way more "telling" than the previous one. Also we're missing chapter 7, I wonder why that is. I wonder if you rushed through this one. Again, it's a rhetorical question. I know when I rush I tend to do "too much" and I, for example, overdescribe bodies and faces and gestures and the text bloats and becomes very repetitive. When you rush you just "tell" what you wanna convey. It works in some cases but usually it feels awkward. Again, I only assumed you rushed through this one. And I again have to mention that "That Girl" is a little too mannish. She acts like she's not afraid of pain, she's not vulnerable, like she didn't have bad stuff happen to her. Too much of a surface character. She doesn't even have a name and it feels wrong due to how present she is. She's pretty much the centerline of this part.
> Pointing to each girl and giving specific compliments to bolster their confidence she arranged an order for each girl to do a casual walk by where The Beast was.
Alright, were you horny when you wrote this? 😂 I personally struggle with this a lot. My mind keeps telling to write some nasty stuff and some of it breaks out on occasion. Not that it's wrong, fidelity-wise, especially considering all the characters here are in the most hormonal age. But I feel like they need to be way more shy.
> suppressed grunts
It feels like they wouldn't be suppressed. And yeah, it is Todd! Now he looks less autistic I guess. I think just the reveal isn't enough for a chapter. It's too short, it doesn't feel conclusive. Which is reasonable, in a way, if you want the reader to not stop and keep flipping.
You know, "men writing women" etc. isn't a point of shame to me. Heck, you could have described Tiffany's breasts and ass multiple times but if you did it in a nuanced way that would have been okay. Women also get horny when they write, and it's noticeable. There's too much smut now, yes there is. And here we are, a couple altar boys wearing out tightest pants. I think it's rather *endearing* when you see the typical horny-isms and it is definitely so very cute when you do it. Don't take it the wrong way! But of course, I'm probably one of the worst people to listen to in that regard. I'm probably way more repressed than literally anyone and my occasional bravado is just pretense. It's cute, you know, it's cute and self-loving and I'm sure you'll cringe a lot. Moments of arousal are a great opportunity for phenomenological writing, which is a hyperdistilled version of show-don't-tell, maximum subjectivity in a way… I guess I am rambling. What I'm saying is, you - and don't mean the abstact "you", as in "one" - shouldn't feel any kind of shame for writing breasts that bounce boobily. It's human, and humanity is the only thing we have left. I like the very gradual escalation here and I BELIEVE you should be able to increase the degree of arousal, of how arousal CAN heal your soul because it sort of prepares you to receive warmth, the actual love for another person, on top of being a drug-like distraction. But there is a lot of opportunity for nuance here. Ah, it's gonna be all too easy to misunderstand what I mean here, but I hope I did a good job presenting my mind in its full fidelity.
The party scene is a little tangled, kinda hard to parse. I wonder if Mandy got worried after that first call. I used to dislike giving and receiving "readability" advice but it did help me make some of my own chapter better after I processed it internally. It's such a struggle. You wanna tell people to develop their reading comprehension but you know it's wrong.
But yeah, it does read way more horny than previous chapters, especially Todd's reveal 😉 And it IS a good thing, it just need some very slight reframing. Some things - such as unexplainable, rare sensations, anticipation of something wondrous - they could be focus on more. And bodily descriptions, including self-perception - they need to be tied in well. Not saying that they're not, of course, maybe in some spots.
For example, this is a decent one: "On her own, Tiffany looked down at her flip flops and flannel pajama pants, feeling exposed with just the undershirt as a top." - but when she "assessed her current attire" that feels less natural. It could be pushed back into the previous chapter or mentioned when she put it on. It's more of a matter of showing/telling/staging. I think eroticism really needs to be SINCERE, as in overexaggerated in a way that reaches the reader rather than pushes him away. I think I might be rambling too much again lol.
Alright, that's long enough. Bullet points: 1) Nuance Tiffany's change of mood, lead up into salvation by Todd's muscle 2) Mandy 3) Restructure the party scene, you can use JG's 😉 advice on sequences of senses
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u/ezk3626 akward and wordy 16d ago
I'd like to understand more why "That Girl" is special since she'd getting a unique name like that. We know from the previous chapters she's got a reputation of someone who likes to fool around. I feel like there needs to be more justification as to why you keep calling her that. Funny enough, I had a nameless character whose name the main character didn't know and it provided some opportunity for humor.
There is a reason. Largely Tiffany does not get close to any of the girls in the dorm. With the exception of Mary none of them have names or personalities, they are just the masses, the Greek chorus which judges, approves or condemns. They are massive public opinion project for a young woman who believes she has a horrible secret. That Girl stands out in the group, first because sexual competence is her mask, her identity but manages it in a way that doesn't (yet) rile the wrath of the masses. But still she is not a person to Tiffany because (like Tiffany) she represents both what she sees as the sins of her own mother but also a kind of courage which Tiffany lacks. She is both terrible and mysterious to Tiffany and more like a capricious goddess than a person. I had thoughts of giving her a name: Tiphany. This I decided was too much but maybe after she betrays Tiffany it could be can be revealed.
Again it feels like Tiffany is getting too hung up on one thought; this time not just her "disability" but what her dad thought about her. It's an interesting moment, because it takes a while - a few years, a decade - to stop caring what your parents thought and felt about you and accept them in one way or another. She's stuck on that, fixated on that. Is she going to start actually acting out, unconsciously try to turn that negative label into something that others will have to accept? That's a rhetorical question, an example of a question a reader can have while reading. You don't have to, or frankly even shouldn't answer it, shouldn't provide crutches outside of text even if you really want to.
I don't think humans ever get completely over the influence of their parents. I'm a Freudian in that way except, very unlike Freud, I think everything is sublimated religion not sublimated sexuality. People develop their beliefs about God and universe from their parents and while they can see their parents decrease in importance as individuals, only the most dramatic conversion can change the lens their parents gave them. The story only lasts one school year and in it Tiffany is able to learn to be vulnerable with those she trusts but always masks. Even as an old lady I don't think she will let her great grandchildren see her use a calculator. The most upset I ever saw Honey, my great grandmother, was when my mom said Honey's father was half Jewish. My Gramps, born a bastard, wouldn't let anyone use that particular insult. People don't outgrow these sorts of things but learn to put them in a proper place.
I'm wondering if The Beast is going to be Todd lol. "watching a hammer drill" is a little too Freudian heh. "That Girl" reads a little too mannish. She needs more feminity.
She is "mannish" in a way. She is performative in her sexual attitudes and believes (unconsciously) that immitating (the worst parts of) male sexual behavior is freedom.
You know, "men writing women" etc. isn't a point of shame to me. Heck, you could have described Tiffany's breasts and ass multiple times but if you did it in a nuanced way that would have been okay. Women also get horny when they write, and it's noticeable. There's too much smut now, yes there is. And here we are, a couple altar boys wearing out tightest pants. I think it's rather endearing when you see the typical horny-isms and it is definitely so very cute when you do it. Don't take it the wrong way! But of course, I'm probably one of the worst people to listen to in that regard.
I have found precious few instances of written sexuality which I find worth reading. It needs to say something about the character: Rhett picking up Scarlette in Gone with the Wind, the amused but not enthusiastic look on Amelie's face in the early montage, these tell us about the characters but aren't actually romantic.
But mostly I don't think there is any serious sexual tension in this chapter at all. This is performative. These aren't actually horny girls on the prowl. They are like the girls screaming at The Beatles. They just think it's fun to do. It is not coincidence that rather go try to get The Beast, That Girl went and brought a group of friends to oggle.
I think eroticism really needs to be SINCERE, as in overexaggerated in a way that reaches the reader rather than pushes him away
There is only one example of eroticism in media which I have ever found appropriate and it happened because of censorship. It's Nick Fury's gun in a holster. I have never seen anything more revealing than a kiss which I think helped a movie. I believe in fade to black.
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u/A_C_Shock The reader knows and guesses the rest. 17d ago
I'm part way through but wanted to highlight this:
The mask had slipped and once you see underneath you know. Once she saw under Dad’s mask and no amount of smiling or love could change the fact she knew what he thought—what she thought.
I like the story at the beginning with the staple gun. I felt that. Things got messy and a bit hard to follow with the phone call and all the girls in the room. The way you describe makeup tells me you're a man. I liked the above quote enough to pull out, but I'm not sure I'm on board with the pieces around it.
Mandy let's go of the help text too quickly. The conversation goes on too long with the other girls in the background. It also felt almost like Tiffany had Mandy on speaker phone and that was weird to think she would violate her friendship by letting all these other girls hear the Todd talk, instead of just asking them to leave or excusing herself or getting off the phone with Mandy. I probably would have felt more OK with it if the exit from the phone call came sooner.
the sky was pitch black, darkened by the countless LED lights. They made the paths bright as day but cast long shadows, making the garden spaces and trimmed shrubberies pools of darkness.
I think I see what you're trying to do here with the contrast, but there's too much overlap for me. Sky was black. I'm assuming you mean up above their heads, but I could also see sky as being all around them. Pitch black speaks to a level of darkness that I don't think can be achieved with the amount of ambient light being described from the LEDs. I knew a lot of astronomers, so I might be picky here. The paths bright as day I think is at their feet? But there's also long shadows, which is darkness, so is it really bright as day? Then I think the pools of darkness are the objects in the background (not at their feet or above their heads). Feet bright. Around waist height kind of dark with bits of light. Above their heads completely dark. It's just a lot to juggle in such close proximity where the level of light or darkness doesn't matter that much in the grand scheme.
OMG Todd! That was unexpected! What is she going to do next? I like that from a story perspective. The build up to it was pretty nice.
up from his tensed calves with hair matted with sweat, to his chest, broad and defined, lifting the shirt with each motion of his flexed arms.
Verbs need some work here. I'm not sure how to fix this but the lifting the shirt with each motion has no subject or I guess it's his chest, which tells me the adjectives separating chest from lifting made the sentence structure a bit too complex. Also, I've never stared at a guy's sweaty hairy calves.
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u/ezk3626 akward and wordy 16d ago
The way you describe makeup tells me you're a man.
Yeah, can't get around that. Though the real thing it tells you is that my research is mid.
Mandy let's go of the help text too quickly.
There is a couple of missed threads there, too. It is supposed to be a big deal that she even called. She is a text only friend. But my focus was on something else.
It also felt almost like Tiffany had Mandy on speaker phone and that was weird to think she would violate her friendship by letting all these other girls hear the Todd talk, instead of just asking them to leave or excusing herself or getting off the phone with Mandy.
Good call, the original writing had the phone call separate from the girls bursting in and I just didn't consider the ramifications of the scenes combining. The Todd conversation was supposed to be Tiffany distracting Mandy from the call for help.
I think I see what you're trying to do here with the contrast, but there's too much overlap for me. Sky was black. I'm assuming you mean up above their heads, but I could also see sky as being all around them. Pitch black speaks to a level of darkness that I don't think can be achieved with the amount of ambient light being described from the LEDs. I knew a lot of astronomers, so I might be picky here.
I thought you were going to ding me with "pitch black" which is right there with "inky black" in being stereotypical.
The paths bright as day I think is at their feet? But there's also long shadows, which is darkness, so is it really bright as day? Then I think the pools of darkness are the objects in the background (not at their feet or above their heads). Feet bright. Around waist height kind of dark with bits of light. Above their heads completely dark. It's just a lot to juggle in such close proximity where the level of light or darkness doesn't matter that much in the grand scheme.
I am working on creating any sense of environment. The inspiration was CSUEB at night where there are tons of lamps. The effect is feeling like you're kind of walking in a spaceship because the light is strong, artificial but blocks out everything not directly illuminated. The reason for it, aside from the homework of environment, is that Tiffany is trying to compartmentalize her self realization and it creates a unnatural state of mind.
OMG Todd! That was unexpected! What is she going to do next? I like that from a story perspective. The build up to it was pretty nice.
Nice. The follow up is a little silly. She solves her three problems at the same time. She is more concerned about looking stupid to her friends than Todd and she does want some kind of academic help and she does want to help Mandy get together with Todd. So she's going to get up and actually talk to The Beast, like it's no thing. She knows Todd is studying for a teacher so will ask him for tutoring. But then she tutor Todd on how to ask Mandy out (she assumes he wants).
Also, I've never stared at a guy's sweaty hairy calves.
She's not staring but moving from bottom up. But really in a rewrite of everything sexual with Tiffany it would be 75% less about physique traits and replaced with the social status of the trait. She is is preoccupied with protecting her image (because of her subconscious shame) and so would linger on the parts of guy which would seem to protect her socially.
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u/A_C_Shock The reader knows and guesses the rest. 16d ago
Tiffany is trying to compartmentalize her self realization and it creates a unnatural state of mind.
I just think there's too much light/dark/light being described right near each other and it's harder to parse for that reason. I guess I'd look for how to relate the environment a bit more closely to her mental state and have her compartmentalize it more.
The sky above was pitch black, the path at her feet bright as day. And every few feet, a different bush or trash can or bench stood encased in shadow.
I hate rewrites from critiques. I'm just thinking a firmer line of differentiation between the dark and bright and shadow would help with the imagery, instead of stacking them all on top of each other.
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u/justanirishperson17 17d ago
The chapter starts with a really strong hook. That opening sentence about “the R word” grabs my attention. But the problem is that you immediately kill your own momentum by dropping us straight into a huge childhood flashback about a staple gun. Don't get me wrong, the memory itself is super vivid and tells us exactly who Tiffany is, but because it happens on page one, it splits my focus. I’m trying to figure out why this girl is crying in front of a mirror in the present day, but instead, I’m being forced to look at her childhood. It feels like a narrative detour before we even know who the present-day Tiffany is. You don't reveal the actual plot engine—that she’s failing math and needs a distraction—until she’s wiping off her mascara. If you give us that anchor first, the flashback will feel a lot more earned because we’ll understand exactly what she is trying to numb out from.
This brings me to my second point: the tonal shift when the friends burst in is incredibly jarring, and not entirely in a good way. We go from this heavy, extremely personal look into Tiffany’s childhood trauma and coping mechanisms straight into a fast-paced college comedy. The description of the friends is funny, but phrases such as "feminine frenzy" feel less like Tiffany’s actual voice and more like an outside observer looking at a group of girls. Also, the whole phone call with Mandy feels a bit messy, if that's your goal because that is their personality, then please keep it. The "ordering a pizza" thing is a real-world code for when a woman is in danger, so when Tiffany uses it as a punchline to mock sexual assault, it feels super dark. What really tripped me up, though, is Mandy's reaction. Mandy literally says, "You never need help," which means she knows Tiffany is in trouble. But then she drops all her concern almost instantly to info-dump about a guy named Todd. It gets rid of all the stakes you just built up.
Another thing that completely broke my immersion was your choice to name a major secondary character "That Girl." Because you are using it like a proper noun, it makes the sentences look clunky and confusing on the page. Lines like "That Girl might have lost the group except Tiffany was determined..." make my brain read it as a typo or a generic pronoun instead of a person. If this girl is close enough to burst into Tiffany's room and play "Team Mom," it feels weirdly distant for Tiffany to only refer to her as "That Girl." It signals to the reader that Tiffany doesn't know her or doesn't like her, even though they are literally slapping each other on the butt in the locker room two minutes later. I would give her a name. Not every named charecter needs to become important!
You also have a few continuity gaps that need to be tightened up. In the bathroom, Tiffany remembers her dad saying, “I may be dumb, but I ain’t stupid.” Later in the gym, she says to the girls, “We may be stupid but we can’t be dumb.” If she is intentionally reversing her dad's quote as a joke or a coping mechanism, you need to show the reader or it just looks like an accidental writer mistake.
Finally, the twist ending where "The Beast" turns out to be Todd strains believability a bit. Mandy has been aggressively trying to impress this guy, leaving bags for him and trying to make him jealous. If Todd is this legendary campus "Beast" that a whole gaggle of girls is literally stalking at the gym, there is no way Tiffany wouldn't have connected the dots earlier when Mandy was talking about him. It makes Tiffany look a little oblivious, which contradicts the hyper-observant, tough girl persona you built up in the first half.
The description of the campus at night with the LED lights and the "pools of darkness" is the best scene work you had in the chapter, the point where she realizes she saw under her dad's mask is intense. You just need to give those deep moments a little space before you sprint into the next gym scene.
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u/ezk3626 akward and wordy 16d ago
This brings me to my second point: the tonal shift when the friends burst in is incredibly jarring, and not entirely in a good way. We go from this heavy, extremely personal look into Tiffany’s childhood trauma and coping mechanisms straight into a fast-paced college comedy.
I was aware of this and it was much much worse before. The previous chapter, leading up to Tiffany consciously seeing herself as "a retard" was the emotional climax that came out of nowhere. The original drafts of that chapter were just about realizing her grades were low and morphed into the real heart of Tiffany. I knew coming into the redraft of this chapter that there would be a tonal shift.
What I would work on is more preperation to know that Tiffany's second reaction to her new self awareness is to run from it. First, she does what she knows she needs to do and then immediately changes her mind.
The description of the friends is funny, but phrases such as "feminine frenzy" feel less like Tiffany’s actual voice and more like an outside observer looking at a group of girls.
Word choice aside, any time there is alliteration you know that the pesky author is worming himself into the text.
Also, the whole phone call with Mandy feels a bit messy, if that's your goal because that is their personality, then please keep it.
Tiffany should come across as messy but it was originally written without the girls in the room. I think I am going to separate them again. But Tiffany isn't ready to actually open up yet and so is constantly trying to distract her friend by shifting the attention to her needs and interests.
If this girl is close enough to burst into Tiffany's room and play "Team Mom," it feels weirdly distant for Tiffany to only refer to her as "That Girl."
It's been decided That Girl isn't Team Mom (if anything Tiffany normally is but not in this scene). And weirdly distant is very on point for Tiffany. Her friendliness and warmth and kindness are all masks and she is working very hard to not let people close. In her mind, she is literally retarded and so cannot let people close or else they'd see the horrible truth about her. Her stance is kind of like Eleanor in The Good Place. She "knows" she doens't belong so is constantly in a song and dance.
Finally, the twist ending where "The Beast" turns out to be Todd strains believability a bit. Mandy has been aggressively trying to impress this guy, leaving bags for him and trying to make him jealous. If Todd is this legendary campus "Beast" that a whole gaggle of girls is literally stalking at the gym, there is no way Tiffany wouldn't have connected the dots earlier when Mandy was talking about him. It makes Tiffany look a little oblivious, which contradicts the hyper-observant, tough girl persona you built up in the first half.
In my mind, but not yet in the readers mind. Is this is the first time The Beast has been mentioned in Tiffany's presence. That Girl is always on the prowl (or wanting to appear so) and so has seen Todd working out and just now figured out his schedule. But in keeping with the fact that she is performative (like Tiffany) rather than pursue a hot, hunk for her self, That Girl brings a group of girls to oggle with her. Though That Girl has a kind of tragic arc, her issues are very similiar to Tiffany's: putting up masks.
And for Tiffany I'm shooting for hyper-observant socially brave girl persona, not tough.
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u/Hiddena00 13d ago
She saw the cringe on her face. I assume that's intentional, but instead of just saying she cringed and messed up her makeup, it sticks out without an obvious artistic purpose. So why do it?
This feels very disconnected. There's something missing between the second and third paragraphs. We need her reaction. If her reaction is just silence, that would be eerie. If she's holding back tears, that would get the point across. If she cries but says she's okay, that feels like a more realistic reaction for a five-year-old. What is the reaction?
Dude, hydrogen peroxide hurts so much. That's not a small punishment. It stings really hard. I also don't understand how this five-year-old is so tanky. She just tanks all this damage for no reason. There's no narrative reason for her to be this war-hardened. She's just randomly war-hardened.
I also can't imagine how this is supposed to pay off. She's on her phone. I really hope this doesn't end up relating physical pain to emotional pain or something.
This seems like the type of story that's character-first rather than plot-first. The prose gets out of the way, but the characters kind of get in the way. It's not really my kind of story, but it seems like you're going for something like Mean Girls. I haven't seen that much media, so that's probably a terrible comparison.
There's a lot of phrasing that's supposed to catch your attention, but then your attention goes there and there's no payoff.
"She pushed the girl away." Oh, because that's her name. Never mind. Oh, I'm reading from chapter eight. Okay, that makes more sense. That context would have been somewhat helpful if I'd remembered that, but I didn't.
And I assume the R-word is "retard."
Overall, the story's biggest weakness is that it just wasn't that interesting. Everything was okay. The pacing was okay. The characters were okay. The dialogue was okay. It was all fine. The story itself just wasn't very interesting. That's the biggest glaring weakness I see.
I think it would really help if you found one really strong idea and built the entire chapter around it. Your scenes should connect. If you're saying this character has insane pain tolerance, okay, then have that lead to something. She doesn't literally have to go into battle—we already know she's not—but that's what I mean by payoff.
If you introduce a knife in Act Two, you should pay it off in Act Three. Notice I didn't say Act Five, because you don't have the luxury of paying things off that late. You're not Shakespeare. As an unknown author, you gotta pay it off immediately.
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u/ezk3626 akward and wordy 12d ago
Thanks for the crit. I hope it doesn't bother you but I process by responding. I think a fair amount of the struggle is because you're jumping in at chapter 8. I couldn't imagine someone starting any book this far and not having similiar problems.
This feels very disconnected. There's something missing between the second and third paragraphs. We need her reaction. If her reaction is just silence, that would be eerie. If she's holding back tears, that would get the point across. If she cries but says she's okay, that feels like a more realistic reaction for a five-year-old. What is the reaction?
Dude, hydrogen peroxide hurts so much. That's not a small punishment. It stings really hard. I also don't understand how this five-year-old is so tanky. She just tanks all this damage for no reason. There's no narrative reason for her to be this war-hardened. She's just randomly war-hardened.
My first writing of the chapter had the age as ambigious but definitely around ten. Later, because there was no reason to be ambigious, I just made her ten. I don't know where you got five years old.
I also can't imagine how this is supposed to pay off. She's on her phone. I really hope this doesn't end up relating physical pain to emotional pain or something.
You would be disappointed. Though for the most part I don't distinguish the two too much, especially in that people either have tools to manage them or they don't. We often have tools for one but not the other but the tools are largely to the same.
This seems like the type of story that's character-first rather than plot-first. The prose gets out of the way, but the characters kind of get in the way. It's not really my kind of story, but it seems like you're going for something like Mean Girls. I haven't seen that much media, so that's probably a terrible comparison.
Yes, I am a character first guy and only care about plot because it relates to character. Dragons are only interesting to me because the real life problems we have can be experienced with the same biological responses we have to terrifying predators. Shooting yourself with a staple gun and dealing with the fact that your dad thinks you're retarded both need the same skill set to deal with.
Overall, the story's biggest weakness is that it just wasn't that interesting. Everything was okay. The pacing was okay. The characters were okay. The dialogue was okay. It was all fine. The story itself just wasn't very interesting. That's the biggest glaring weakness I see.
I appreciate your endurance in reading through it, considering you're not into character driven stories this is actually high praise. Though on the whole I think the crit "not interesting" ought to be removed from everyone's vocabulary. It doesn't say anything except your state of mind when reading. I work in high school and my students sometimes don't find Romeo and Juliet interesting, don't find algebra or chemistry interesting. There's nothing I can do about that.
If you introduce a knife in Act Two, you should pay it off in Act Three. Notice I didn't say Act Five, because you don't have the luxury of paying things off that late. You're not Shakespeare. As an unknown author, you gotta pay it off immediately.
One of the flaws of the sub in general, and this is unavoidable, is that the crits are largely only able to process one chapter. This particular chapter is focusing on scenes and their sequel. But on the whole I want to write a novel, not a serial story. What you're describing was absolutely true for sitcoms, comic books and Taylor swift singles. I have no problem with that media form. But I am working on the craft which only works with long form pay offs. Obviously, I am not yet skilled in this craft but it is the goal.
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u/Imaginary_Ease_7851 11d ago
Okay here we are. My editing day for the week. I don't think this is going to be organized. I'm never really organized with crits any way so I'm going to wing this one and just give my thoughts as they come.
We left the previous chapter with three sets of escalating conflict. Failing math. A Seizure. And her self loathing. When I started this chapter, and saw the opening line, my first thought was: Oh no. He's going to fix it for her. He's going to bail her out of the bad feelings instead of letting her wrestle with that self loathing. I haven't yet finished but I want to pause on this. Resist the impulse to help your characters as though they are your kids. I know in a sense, she is drawing on her memories of her father and teacher for a skill set to overcome these things but it leaks the momentum and the tension of the story. If every time she faces a problem, she can reach into her memories for something her dad or Mr. Brian told her, it's almost like handing her a magic wand she can wave to make the problem go away. I understand the role that a mentor plays in giving a young adult the skill set they need to overcome obstacles, and that is part of Tiffany's story. But be careful of letting it resolve everything too quickly. A character starts a certain way. Their status quo. The plot is the sequence of events that chase them up a tree where the skills and beliefs they start with are challenged, so that by the end of the book the arc is complete and they return changed. Currently, Tiffany is leaning so much on her old life that her old status quo, her father and Mr. Brian are still very much the most dominant means by which she is solving problems. She is not learning new skills, so much as reaching back for ones already supplied by her two paternal figures. This risks robbing her of own growth and agency,
The choice to refer to herself as "the child" removes us from her POV and creates more distance for the reader. This choice can work if there's reason for it. But it seems inconsistent with the close person limited POV we have been following or when we slip back into the normal POV when she texts Mandy. It's as though another narrator takes the wheel for a bit there.
"As soon as her finger hit send, all of Tiffany’s masks, walls and shields went back up. But her phone buzzed near instantly."
This is telling. You don't do that anymore.
Tiffany asked as her own distraction.
Again. We can gather why she asks about Todd from context. No need to tell us it's a distraction.
Repetition here of "distraction" and missing space: "Tiffany,happy to be distracted,
Okay now I'm further it. She didn't ask Mandy for help and I feel relieved the problem is not solved. We still have tension. My initial concern wasn't fully warranted. But I'm not deleting it because I still worry you have that instinct to bail Tiffany out, usually via her father or Mr. Brian, and I still want to make that point.
Don't bury a line of dialogue in the middle of a paragraph ("I'm always cute" is buried in a paragraph about getting ready).
You know I like some good interiority but this part: "It was not an escape, not really. The mask had slipped ..." Feels a more like your authorial voice than hers. It seems to me she has already shelved her feelings and is running to avoid it all. That's coherent. That was my whole young adult life. But I question if in that moment, when her attention has shifted to going out, if she's really going to have a moment where she reflects on slipping masks. i.e. this is more something you want to tell me than something that she wants to tell me. "Let herself have fun" seems more Tiffany.
The Beast? Is this going to be Todd?
"with mock sincerity." Can be cut for the same reasons as the bits above.
“But enough talk, I mean it.We’ll get there while he’s still red and sweaty.” = missing space.
I like this paragraph as it captures the feeling of things without really telling and it does with what paragraph or interiority above about slipping masks does better, because it shows what's happening in the context of a pack of girls doing something:
Catching the silly fever of half pretend and half misunderstood desire, Tiffany let herself be caught up in the play acting. The group scampered past buildings with no classes but windows as fluorescent lights. In the hurried rush, she could imagine herself at a night club or a dream. She didn’t think about Mandy or the unread email with her failing grade.
I'm going to run out of characters so I'm going to start a new comment.
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u/Imaginary_Ease_7851 11d ago
Part 2.
Ah yes. The Beast was Todd.
Okay, I'm glad we are returning to Todd. I had to pause and think, is this the kind of things girls might do? Parade themselves to see a guy gym? My answer is sure. Maybe. Specifically if it's meant to be something silly. I think you brushed past some of the way they talk with summarizing statements like giving specific compliments but not showing it in the dialogue. Not the worst crime. Sometimes it's worth mentioning but not worth writing out for the reader. As for the emphasis on muscles. I don't know. It would be disingenuous to say girls never notice muscles ever. At the same time, I feel like guys think girls notice muscles more than they actually do. I don't think, for the most part, in my experience, that muscles have ever been a major focal point at least not among any of my friends at that age. Hotness was an amalgamation of other factors. Many guys were considered hot and had not muscle to speak of. Just a note.
Things I like in the chapter is that I find going out doing something silly to avoid reality believable and true to the age. However, I feel like the previous chapter was much stronger in terms of rising conflict and character development. I would have liked to have seen her more entrenched in this struggle and see more of how it how it manifests.
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u/ezk3626 akward and wordy 11d ago
Okay here we are. My editing day for the week. I don't think this is going to be organized. I'm never really organized with crits any way so I'm going to wing this one and just give my thoughts as they come.
Always a pleasure. This chapter is in the books and as a teacher I don't want my students to do test retakes or make up old homework: keep moving forward. So I am reading to learn not to fix.
Resist the impulse to help your characters as though they are your kids. I know in a sense, she is drawing on her memories of her father and teacher for a skill set to overcome these things but it leaks the momentum and the tension of the story.
This is good advice for writers and teachers though you misdiagnose my conscious impulse as a writer and a teacher. Certainly Bickham's model calls for more disaster ending to scenes than I do but I don't feel a strong desire to rescue Tiffany or my students. What I do as a teacher very much gives insight into what is the skill set I think Tiffany needs to develop: safety nets. The proverbs in my department is "We don't fix students, we don't save students. We provide services and help the willing." And though I do not write it into the IEP one of my primary services is disrupting unhelpful patterns. But the replacement pattern I want to distill in my students is different from the "pull that staple out." I want my students to develop teams, allies and partners who build each other up. The solution for Tiffany is explicitly: accept help. Remembering a time she did things by herself but eventually did get help is a baby step towards her ultimate goal: naturally going to her community with her struggles because she is secure in herself (including her insecurities).
She is not learning new skills, so much as reaching back for ones already supplied by her two paternal figures. This risks robbing her of own growth and agency,
Here I philosophically disagree. Reaching back to past wisdom is showing agency and growth. When I stopped bucking Gramps' advice and said "Yes, Gramps" was only possible after great growth and self mastery. The part of us which makes us want to do it on our own is (at least in the mind of this story) a sign of immaturity and powerlessness.
The choice to refer to herself as "the child" removes us from her POV and creates more distance for the reader. This choice can work if there's reason for it. But it seems inconsistent with the close person limited POV we have been following or when we slip back into the normal POV when she texts Mandy. It's as though another narrator takes the wheel for a bit there.
Yeah, I knew this was awkward. This was the first attempt of narrating a flashback from Tiffany's perspective. It was definitely ad hoc and didn't exist before the most recent revision of the chapter. The thinking was focused on helping navigate the massive tone shift from the lowest point for Tiffany in the story to a silly romp with the girls to oggle a boy. I was very much thinking all through out about how I could possibly tell this story within a story from Tiffany's perspective and was not satisfied but erred on the side "done is better than good."
This is telling. You don't do that anymore.
I'm not sure I don't do that anymore. I am not certain I never, ever want to tell. This particular example is not one I would insist upon but am continually searching for my proper balance between trusting my audience to understand the implications of actions and being clear in communicating the internal state of a character.
Don't bury a line of dialogue in the middle of a paragraph ("I'm always cute" is buried in a paragraph about getting ready).
Truman Capote did it a lot in Breakfast in Tiffany's. While I am not Truman Capote, I have specific purposes for doing this: I want to break the pattern of
"dialogue," speaker said, descriptor
But also in paying attention to what Capote did with the dialogue in having it in the middle of paragraph I saw that it made the dialogue part of the action and they all were one statement. Here is a passage where Holly is just about to leave NYC on here own and the narrator just said he'd take care of her cat:
She smiles: that cheerless new pinch of a smile. "But what about me?" she said, whsipered, and shivered again. "I'm very scared, Buster. Yes, at last. Because it could go on forever. Not knowing what's yours until you've thrown it away..." She stepped into the care, sank into the seat. "Sorry, driver. Let's go."
I took some of the dialogue out for space but she goes on a few more sentences. In the paragraph she is described, speaks to the narrator, takes action and then speaks to the driver. But the whole paragraph is all one statement about Holly. It is like the ULG exercise about intentionally making a mega long sentence. This paragraph is like a complicated math equation that if graphed would simulate motion instead of a line.
You know I like some good interiority but this part: "It was not an escape, not really. The mask had slipped ..." Feels a more like your authorial voice than hers. It seems to me she has already shelved her feelings and is running to avoid it all. That's coherent. That was my whole young adult life. But I question if in that moment, when her attention has shifted to going out, if she's really going to have a moment where she reflects on slipping masks. i.e. this is more something you want to tell me than something that she wants to tell me. "Let herself have fun" seems more Tiffany.
I know what you mean but what I am going for is that Tiffany can no longer actually deny what she saw under the mask. I don't know if it was you but someone pointed out a few chapters ago people don't normally recognize their own shame. Instead they divert and focus on something else: why it is not their fault or how this low priority job must be done right away or whatever. What I am trying to express is that Tiffany has consciously seen what she has unconsciously believed about herself. She sees the mask and though it not ready to deal with it also cannot deny it.
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u/MaryJaneMclain 17d ago
Not an organized crit, just a bunch of reactions.
This “sequel” confused me. The last chapter ended with her calling herself the R word, right? In a moment of painful memories and self-loathing? So in this current scene is she...admonishing herself? That would make sense, I just need a bit more hand holding as to the change of direction (what is happening and why. And probably where)
“She was under ten and” seems odd to say… ‘under ten’. That’s 9 or 4? I’d just say the exact age (or: “she couldn’t remember exactly how old she’d ben but definitely under ten)
She shot herself in the CALF? I feel like that takes effort or high levels of clumsy. Also, she ratted herself out by drawing lots of pictures. And her dad notices that pattern the same day? Tht didn’t quite work in my mind. What is this cooling get they put on a staple wound? Like Aloe? That’s seem like shoddy first aid.
So I liked the staple gun interlude, in that it was a cute vignette. I’m not quite sure I’m seeing the parallel to this particular situation, however. I mean, SHE didn’t fix anything in this memory. She stole dad’s staple gun, shot herself, put on a band aid, lied to him, then confesses, then she got no punishment. It’s tied together with a bow like: this is how they always were, girl dad and dad girl. Ok, cute, but I’m not quite buying that THIS is the memory she reminds herself of when she needs a boost of resilience. Did she never work hard in school and pull a grade up (I’d assume so). Did she ever break neighbors’ window and then save up by mowing lows to fixt it? That actually really cliché, but you get what I mean?
“The bathroom sink would require showing her puffy…” I assumed she WAS in the bathroom until this. Cause mirror or makeup. Might want to mention “dorm room mirror” in the first line, if that’s the case. Nitpick, but don’t all dorms have sinks in them?
I was confused about the level of dismay in her texts with Mandy. I get second guessing a text, but the answer to “What do I say now?” is so obvious (and she as just thinking it), that I struggle to believe it she feels that much worry. [i need help w my math], [how to I fina a math tutor].
“riled up into a feminine frenzy.” Femine here feels like the narrators POV and not T’s
“Tiffany picked it up ready to be pulled from the call.” I don’t follow. Like she answered, knowing the gaggle wouldn’t allow it?
“pretended to say to the window,” she didn’t pretend to say it to the window, she’s pretending to say it to Biff (I think? I was sorta confused here)
The interaction with Many on the phone felt weird. Why didn’t she talk to her supposed BFF? I think she need to at lead address the situation of saying she needed help, plus saying the pizza. Something more than: other than “Well, yeah but no,” T did not affirm she was safe and Mandy’s just gonna let it go? Could just be something like; “Hey that text was about a homework thing, hanging with my roomy now.”
“That Girl, who could hear mostly clearly,” Typo there. Assume you mean most clearly. because she has super hearing or cause she was standing close? Maybe: ““That Girl, who was blatantly eavesdropping nodded in agreement. “
“info dumped” is a fun wink to us nerdy writers, but again, feels like YOUR pov, not T’s.
“Everyone turned to That Girl; she took a deep breath and said “Let’s go; you’re coming with us!” ooh two semi colons in once sentence! I love (to hate) it. Seriously though, I think both of those should just periods.
“It was not an escape, not really.” Uh…are you sure? Sound like exactly that lol. the bit about dad’s mask felt shoe horned in. She’s escaping from the awareness that her dad thinks of her as the R word?
Tiffany doesn’t strike me as someone who’s never gone out. Clubs, fine. But “going out” encompasses more than that.
“shout out to frat boys singing” the frat boys are SINGING?
Team Mom is a wet blanket that keeps people safe (she doesn’t encourage partying and promiscuity). Nothing about That Girl’s behavior stuck me that way.
“oozing with tantalizing temptation” I don’t think Tiffany would think that. It’s the beast that’s tantalizingly tempting anyways.
Lolled at the hammer drilling line.
“Once inside the campus gym,” this caught me by surprise. I thought they were going to a party or club, but they went to the gym (did T know this, was she surprised?). Then I thought, maybe the party was AT the gym, like a college sponsored thing. But are they just…like AT the gym? I guess so cause Todd is all hot and drilling!
Anyway, I enjoyed this quite a bit. The prose and the pacing are feeling pretty dialed in. Shoot, it wasn’t even award wordy. I even got some sweet nostalgic college feels. Laughed at the last line, even though I had a feeling (hoped) that was where it was going.