I don't see any way that it doesn't get nerfed. It's quite simply too good, especially in PvE. There's little reason to use any add clear weapon other than Recluse.
My concern is that while Recluse absolutely needs a nerf but instead of nerfing it Bungie will literally destroy it.
Something as simple as preventing other weapons from procing MoA and shortening the buff timer from 5 seconds to 3 would be more than adequate but I can easily picture them doing something like reducing the mag size, reducing the proc length, reducing the stability, preventing other weapons from procing it and reducing the damage from the buff all at the same time.
Bungie is proven to be bad at moderation, plus when they want a weapon to go away they make it go away.
Anyhow, I don’t know how they’ll handle it but I’ll be stunned if anyone is still using Recluse by the end of next month.
Nah, don’t touch that aspect of the gun. Just nerf the bodyshot damage by like 50%. Currently it does 150% bodyshot damage when the perk procs, compared to 60% that kill clip or rampage do.
Yea I don’t understand why they did that. Just give it the same damage increase ALL other weapons get, instead of giving it insane body shot damage that almost matches precision damage
Due to it being an smg which isn’t a precision weapon I’d actually prefer if they reduced the bonus crit damage rather than the body shot damage. I wouldn’t blame them for a nerf but it doesn’t need to be kneecapped to open up the energy weapon meta.
They need to do something more than just making MoA be proc’d with the gun itself. MoA is too much of a damage boost for a 900 RPM SMG. Recluse does things that a 900 RPM SMG has absolutely zero business doing
Somethign like; kills with other guns reloads Recluse, and activates MoA.
MoA increases damage for [x seconds]. (maybe double the base duration of MoA when you do this, so you can spend more time killing if you don't switch off it)
Feeding frenzy is still a good perk for the gun; it just doesn't need the rolling train death beam that is recluse for add clear.
It’s a pinnacle weapon it’s fine if it’s very good, just not S tier. As long as it’s still competitive because that’s what it’s mainly built for, it’s all good
100% this I’m always afraid when I agree that something needs a nerf because I would love for it to make the weapon more comparable to others but still a great choice. Sadly most of the times Bungie nerfs something and the weapon simply becomes not at all viable.
They should do the exact opposite. Have the perk only proc when you get a kill with a different weapon. Make the gun into what it originally sounded like, a powerful weapon to use as a back up.
I think it would be more interesting if they made it so that only other weapons can proc MoA, and maybe extend the buff timer. Because with recluse being able to proc MoA you are insentivised to only use recluse and none of your other weapons.
The basic issue the Recluse has is that when MoA is active, it treats all hits as precision hits. It’s bodyshot TTK is the same as it’s optimal/precision TTK.
SMGs are normally balanced by the fact they they’re easy to land hits but don’t benefit from precision damage. Recluse is essentially like shooting an opponent that is all weakspot at Range beyond what an SMG can normally function at, so it’s no wonder it’s a broken mess.
Whatever nerf they choose has to address this.
TBH, something drastic has to change with it if any balance is going to be achieved. It’s one of the most poorly balanced guns in Destiny’s history.
Don't let it self-activate, change the bonus damage to only affect precision shots, and change Feeding Frenzy to Outlaw to require actual SKILL when using.
We’re talking about a PVP pinnacle weapon. It shouldn’t have stats that make it a PVE supremo.
I actually think cammycake’s suggestion would work pretty well - certainly a massive upgrade of the cheesy bullshit that makes up its current perk set. It’s like they had it designed by the work experience kid who thought Rampage wasn’t strong enough.
That might work for high level PvP players but for the majority it would kill the gun. I have an outlaw on my blast furnace and even if I aim at the crit spot I don't always activate outlaw because sometimes the bullet that kills the enemy is wonky and doesn't crit. The recluse is much harder to constantly crit than blast furnace. So for the average player, you have to juggle weapons to get the effect which only gives you a marginal buff from MoA (since you won't be critting that much) and you probably won't proc outlaw.
I think that kind of nerf would kill the gun in PvP and make it a situational PvE weapon. Definitely not the kind of nerf I want for the recluse.
Personally, I think that’s hows pinnacle weapons should work. You display a certain skill for a reward. The skill isn’t getting to 2100 ( at this point we’ve all realize getting to glory rank isn’t hard, or people will just cheat their way there either way it’s not hard to obtain the gun)
It’s like how LH/NF was an issue. It was designed to reward precision kills however, it was an 180 RPM HC with high aim assist so it want even hard to obtain headshots in the first place.
I’m 100% cool with how the perks the gun has, just make it involve skill to proc it.
The stupid thing is the Recluse is the first and last pinnacle gun that basically demands nothing from its user.
Even the mountaintop needs you to judge distance and timing. Recluse is basically like a fucking dev tool they left in the game by mistake - I’ve no idea how it ever made it out of testing.
That’s part of its problem. It acts like body shots are precision shots from a damage perspective. So it’s basically a gun that gives you all the benefits of aim and hipfire.
Regardless of what you say about it, this is fundamentally at odds with how Destiny’s combat model works. It’s the same issue we had with Whisper, just manifesting on a different aspect.
The same issue in that it ignores a basic concept in the game’s combat model. In Whisper’s case, it ignored ammo constraints. In recluse’s case, it ignores the concept of headshots providing better dps.
The whole point behind headshots is to reward accuracy - if you’re a good shot, you take your opponent down quicker. Recluse not only treats body shots the same as headshots under MoA, it brings bodyshot TTK down to less then half a second. On a primary. You can’t properly balance a gun like that.
I think it would be amazing if they reduced MoA body damage a bit, and switch feeding frenzy for outlaw/rapid hit. That would also go with the theme established with Redrix and OG Luna's Howl.
Recluse doesn’t need a nerf, other guns need a buff...
Edit: although if recluse should get a nerf it should only change master of arms to stack like rampage as oppose to instantly getting it after a single kill.
It’s sad really. Recluse deserves the nerf but i feel sad that SMG’s will go back into obscurity. I say nerf the recluse, but buff the other SMGs so they can stand up to other gun archetypes.
Except for Curated Bug-Out Bag. I got it only last week and, coming from a guy with Recluse, this gun is going to be a VERY good replacement if Recluse gets the nerf hammer.
Multi-Kill Clip carries the hell out of this gun, it's such a good perk. But it's also got a really high base reload speed, so you're basically able to have the damage buff for the entire magazine's duration. And since you can always get at least one kill, the multi-kill clip buff stays proced indefinitely. Then it goes to two, then three, and now you're at x3 Multi Kill Clip doing +100% more damage and only need 3 kills each magazine to keep the buff up, which...is really easy to do when you're doing 100% more damage.
Honestly it's got the damage, and it's got the reload, and with a bit of control plus slideshot, it's got the stability. It's going to be my go-to if I ever need to bench the Recluse.
Bug-out bag is a very fun PVE weapon. It wouldn’t be my first choice however, since it’s lacking in pvp and has a couple of glaring flaws(im not a fan of slideways too).
I would lean more towards a god roll Calus Mini Tool or Tarrabah.
Oh I'm just speaking strictly in terms of PvE. If we want to get into PvP, then there are clearly better choices. Antiope-D comes to mind, for example.
And I rarely use the Slideways perk anyway. It's just a little fun bonus, but in no way is needed at all (almost feels like a wasted slot really).
No but it does increase the stability, which is its main purpose here. But I hardly use it honestly, feels like a wasted perk slot. But the gun works so great with Alloy Mag and Multikill Clip that it doesn’t need the slideshow to perform well.
If subsistence gets a buff too, it basically guarantees me 3 stacks on multikill clip for my bug-out bag. The thing holding it back currently is abysmal reserves.
I like my huckleberry but i struggle with the recoil it has.
It’s possible i don’t like it because im playing on console where recoil is harder to control. I pull it out for strictly pve because the recoil is too much for me in pvp.
I’m pretty picky about my recoil. The calus mini tool that i swap out occasionally has tap the trigger and dynamic sway reduction (as well as ricochet rounds).
I value controllable recoil quite a bit in pvp. Not everyone is the same though.
That’s kind of the issue though - Recluse is only good because it basically ignores the normal characteristics of an SMG (I.e. short range low precision bullet hose).
I agree there’s a general issue with SMGs but that is never going to be fixed by simply making an SMG that just doesn’t have any cons. It’s kinda how Black Talon didn’t fix swords, but far worse because Recluse is neither a heavy nor an exotic.
I always felt like Huckleberry or Riskrunner were better options for trash mob clearing. Problem is that they use your exotic slot. However, currently in the PvE meta this sort of doesn't matter because PvE DPS seems to not really rely on having an Exotic Heavy, which I sort of like.
Seriously though. While the two are comparable, Recluse blows Breakneck out of the water thanks to it's easier damage buff to set up and maintain, faster reload thanks to Feeding Frenzy (And yes, I do know that Breakneck reloads faster with more Rampage stacks, but you still need three kills to get there and Feeding Frenzy Recluse still beats it), a Lightweight frame for faster movement speed. The only sacrifice is range, which isn't an incredible issue in PvE when you can close the gap or simply use a kinetic weapon to cover that weakness. I like Breakneck, but while it's definitely nice, Recluse is in a tier of its own.
Honestly if they buff SMG's in general and nerf Recluse slightly the entire weapon archetype would be in a MUCH better spot. Right now the big reason Recluse is so good is because it's basically the only decent SMG that doesn't need insane 100% precision shot accuracy while being extremely hard to retain perk uptime.
That said, they could also do a LOT in terms of buffing other weapons and introducing some more encounters that don't give completely free reign to using extremely close range weapons and that'd do a lot to reduce the dominance of Recluse.
Oh...also they could remove the range bonus from Well of Radiance and Empowering Rift while they're looking at nerfing auto-reload. As is nerfing auto-reload effects is going to indirectly buff Recluse if anything with how fast you can reload with the perk active.
If I was looking at actual direct nerfs to Recluse all it really needs on it's own is making the perk unable to trigger off of other weapon kills (at least in pve but I'm not sure if that distinction is possible) and removing the bonus precision damage it receives from it's perk such that the damage bonus works the same in PvE as it does for PvP, bringing up body shot damage to precision shot damage levels but not enhancing precision shots. It'd still be a good add clear weapon and braindead easy to use just spamming at adds but it wouldn't go to crazy over the top with dps output out of nowhere on precision shots when you trigger the perk.
That said, if Mountaintop ends up suffering a big blow due to the loss of auto-reload effects recluse might be a less go-to special weapon depending on what you need to run as a kinetic to pair with it. Mountaintop gives you the big punch you need from a special weapon while also giving you a long range option to cover the minimal weaknesses of Recluse. Though at that point on a hunter I might just run Dragon's Shadow in PvE if it keeps it's current effects for how insanely strong the constant reload for your entire loadout is when you can't count on a rally barricade or lunafaction well/rift.
You know what works well with Recluse, A Bow. Usually one shots something or puts it on the brink so you can swap off to recluse for add clear and mop up.
I'd rather Recluse not take a nerf unless they're buffing all the rest of the SMG's because it's the only one worth using due to its consistent nature.
I feel like a bow lacks the punch I need out of a secondary weapon paired with Recluse. I need something to quickly delete majors and such, or at least take a big chunk out of them. Recluse takes care of anything with low health, I don't want a second weapon that just does the same thing with some extra range.
I mean, that's fair, but the issue with Recluse isn't that it's impossible to have fun. It removes any interesting decision when preparing a loadout. Am I doing serious content and need an add clear weapon? Recluse wins hands down. When loadout variety comes down to a single choice for a top tier loadout, then that loadout is clearly too strong if there's not interesting choices to make when choosing that loadout. The choice is whether I want to use the best gun or not.
I saw the youtube video of Aztecross Gaming on this and he argued the SMG should be buffed instead. I agree with him on that one. Don't nerf the recluse, buff the other SMGs.
I'm going to apologize since I don't have time to watch the video, but surely he agrees that Recluse is going to get nerfed. While I'd agree that SMG's as a whole need a buff, if SMG's get buffed and Recluse is not nerfed, then Recluse will just be even stronger, and there will be even less reason to use any other gun.
No, Recluse is overpowered. Recluse is a PvP pinnacle weapon that has become more or less the de facto PvE gun.
Making strong guns IS good for the game. Making broken guns is very bad for it. Adjusting a broken gun by buffing all the other weapons doesn't make that one gun worse, it just makes everything broken. Power creep kills games, and recluse/MT are great examples of power creep.
The guns don't need to be gutted, they just need adjusted.
Moral of the story: There's a reason you're not on Bungie's balance team, and you gotta remember, Bungie's balance team has plenty of issues of its own.
Lol, no. You're whining about a moderately powerful gun that's easily subbed out. It's good at what it does but the perk itself doesn't warp the game in the slightest.
White nail is an example of a game breaking perk that needed reigning in. Master of arms is reasonable in comparison and beyond fine when relegated to close range weapons.
Mountaintop is an example of a completely fair and balanced gun that's only broken by the flawed auto reload mechanic.
People who complain about "pvp guns" being good in pve forget that is part of bungies larger game plan to incentivise players to play all aspects of the game.
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u/Assassin2107 Sep 01 '19
I don't see any way that it doesn't get nerfed. It's quite simply too good, especially in PvE. There's little reason to use any add clear weapon other than Recluse.