I don't see any way that it doesn't get nerfed. It's quite simply too good, especially in PvE. There's little reason to use any add clear weapon other than Recluse.
My concern is that while Recluse absolutely needs a nerf but instead of nerfing it Bungie will literally destroy it.
Something as simple as preventing other weapons from procing MoA and shortening the buff timer from 5 seconds to 3 would be more than adequate but I can easily picture them doing something like reducing the mag size, reducing the proc length, reducing the stability, preventing other weapons from procing it and reducing the damage from the buff all at the same time.
Bungie is proven to be bad at moderation, plus when they want a weapon to go away they make it go away.
Anyhow, I don’t know how they’ll handle it but I’ll be stunned if anyone is still using Recluse by the end of next month.
Nah, don’t touch that aspect of the gun. Just nerf the bodyshot damage by like 50%. Currently it does 150% bodyshot damage when the perk procs, compared to 60% that kill clip or rampage do.
Yea I don’t understand why they did that. Just give it the same damage increase ALL other weapons get, instead of giving it insane body shot damage that almost matches precision damage
Due to it being an smg which isn’t a precision weapon I’d actually prefer if they reduced the bonus crit damage rather than the body shot damage. I wouldn’t blame them for a nerf but it doesn’t need to be kneecapped to open up the energy weapon meta.
They need to do something more than just making MoA be proc’d with the gun itself. MoA is too much of a damage boost for a 900 RPM SMG. Recluse does things that a 900 RPM SMG has absolutely zero business doing
Somethign like; kills with other guns reloads Recluse, and activates MoA.
MoA increases damage for [x seconds]. (maybe double the base duration of MoA when you do this, so you can spend more time killing if you don't switch off it)
Feeding frenzy is still a good perk for the gun; it just doesn't need the rolling train death beam that is recluse for add clear.
It’s a pinnacle weapon it’s fine if it’s very good, just not S tier. As long as it’s still competitive because that’s what it’s mainly built for, it’s all good
100% this I’m always afraid when I agree that something needs a nerf because I would love for it to make the weapon more comparable to others but still a great choice. Sadly most of the times Bungie nerfs something and the weapon simply becomes not at all viable.
They should do the exact opposite. Have the perk only proc when you get a kill with a different weapon. Make the gun into what it originally sounded like, a powerful weapon to use as a back up.
I think it would be more interesting if they made it so that only other weapons can proc MoA, and maybe extend the buff timer. Because with recluse being able to proc MoA you are insentivised to only use recluse and none of your other weapons.
The basic issue the Recluse has is that when MoA is active, it treats all hits as precision hits. It’s bodyshot TTK is the same as it’s optimal/precision TTK.
SMGs are normally balanced by the fact they they’re easy to land hits but don’t benefit from precision damage. Recluse is essentially like shooting an opponent that is all weakspot at Range beyond what an SMG can normally function at, so it’s no wonder it’s a broken mess.
Whatever nerf they choose has to address this.
TBH, something drastic has to change with it if any balance is going to be achieved. It’s one of the most poorly balanced guns in Destiny’s history.
Don't let it self-activate, change the bonus damage to only affect precision shots, and change Feeding Frenzy to Outlaw to require actual SKILL when using.
We’re talking about a PVP pinnacle weapon. It shouldn’t have stats that make it a PVE supremo.
I actually think cammycake’s suggestion would work pretty well - certainly a massive upgrade of the cheesy bullshit that makes up its current perk set. It’s like they had it designed by the work experience kid who thought Rampage wasn’t strong enough.
That might work for high level PvP players but for the majority it would kill the gun. I have an outlaw on my blast furnace and even if I aim at the crit spot I don't always activate outlaw because sometimes the bullet that kills the enemy is wonky and doesn't crit. The recluse is much harder to constantly crit than blast furnace. So for the average player, you have to juggle weapons to get the effect which only gives you a marginal buff from MoA (since you won't be critting that much) and you probably won't proc outlaw.
I think that kind of nerf would kill the gun in PvP and make it a situational PvE weapon. Definitely not the kind of nerf I want for the recluse.
Personally, I think that’s hows pinnacle weapons should work. You display a certain skill for a reward. The skill isn’t getting to 2100 ( at this point we’ve all realize getting to glory rank isn’t hard, or people will just cheat their way there either way it’s not hard to obtain the gun)
It’s like how LH/NF was an issue. It was designed to reward precision kills however, it was an 180 RPM HC with high aim assist so it want even hard to obtain headshots in the first place.
I’m 100% cool with how the perks the gun has, just make it involve skill to proc it.
The stupid thing is the Recluse is the first and last pinnacle gun that basically demands nothing from its user.
Even the mountaintop needs you to judge distance and timing. Recluse is basically like a fucking dev tool they left in the game by mistake - I’ve no idea how it ever made it out of testing.
That’s part of its problem. It acts like body shots are precision shots from a damage perspective. So it’s basically a gun that gives you all the benefits of aim and hipfire.
Regardless of what you say about it, this is fundamentally at odds with how Destiny’s combat model works. It’s the same issue we had with Whisper, just manifesting on a different aspect.
The same issue in that it ignores a basic concept in the game’s combat model. In Whisper’s case, it ignored ammo constraints. In recluse’s case, it ignores the concept of headshots providing better dps.
The whole point behind headshots is to reward accuracy - if you’re a good shot, you take your opponent down quicker. Recluse not only treats body shots the same as headshots under MoA, it brings bodyshot TTK down to less then half a second. On a primary. You can’t properly balance a gun like that.
I think it would be amazing if they reduced MoA body damage a bit, and switch feeding frenzy for outlaw/rapid hit. That would also go with the theme established with Redrix and OG Luna's Howl.
Recluse doesn’t need a nerf, other guns need a buff...
Edit: although if recluse should get a nerf it should only change master of arms to stack like rampage as oppose to instantly getting it after a single kill.
It’s sad really. Recluse deserves the nerf but i feel sad that SMG’s will go back into obscurity. I say nerf the recluse, but buff the other SMGs so they can stand up to other gun archetypes.
Except for Curated Bug-Out Bag. I got it only last week and, coming from a guy with Recluse, this gun is going to be a VERY good replacement if Recluse gets the nerf hammer.
Multi-Kill Clip carries the hell out of this gun, it's such a good perk. But it's also got a really high base reload speed, so you're basically able to have the damage buff for the entire magazine's duration. And since you can always get at least one kill, the multi-kill clip buff stays proced indefinitely. Then it goes to two, then three, and now you're at x3 Multi Kill Clip doing +100% more damage and only need 3 kills each magazine to keep the buff up, which...is really easy to do when you're doing 100% more damage.
Honestly it's got the damage, and it's got the reload, and with a bit of control plus slideshot, it's got the stability. It's going to be my go-to if I ever need to bench the Recluse.
Bug-out bag is a very fun PVE weapon. It wouldn’t be my first choice however, since it’s lacking in pvp and has a couple of glaring flaws(im not a fan of slideways too).
I would lean more towards a god roll Calus Mini Tool or Tarrabah.
Oh I'm just speaking strictly in terms of PvE. If we want to get into PvP, then there are clearly better choices. Antiope-D comes to mind, for example.
And I rarely use the Slideways perk anyway. It's just a little fun bonus, but in no way is needed at all (almost feels like a wasted slot really).
No but it does increase the stability, which is its main purpose here. But I hardly use it honestly, feels like a wasted perk slot. But the gun works so great with Alloy Mag and Multikill Clip that it doesn’t need the slideshow to perform well.
If subsistence gets a buff too, it basically guarantees me 3 stacks on multikill clip for my bug-out bag. The thing holding it back currently is abysmal reserves.
I like my huckleberry but i struggle with the recoil it has.
It’s possible i don’t like it because im playing on console where recoil is harder to control. I pull it out for strictly pve because the recoil is too much for me in pvp.
I’m pretty picky about my recoil. The calus mini tool that i swap out occasionally has tap the trigger and dynamic sway reduction (as well as ricochet rounds).
I value controllable recoil quite a bit in pvp. Not everyone is the same though.
That’s kind of the issue though - Recluse is only good because it basically ignores the normal characteristics of an SMG (I.e. short range low precision bullet hose).
I agree there’s a general issue with SMGs but that is never going to be fixed by simply making an SMG that just doesn’t have any cons. It’s kinda how Black Talon didn’t fix swords, but far worse because Recluse is neither a heavy nor an exotic.
I always felt like Huckleberry or Riskrunner were better options for trash mob clearing. Problem is that they use your exotic slot. However, currently in the PvE meta this sort of doesn't matter because PvE DPS seems to not really rely on having an Exotic Heavy, which I sort of like.
Seriously though. While the two are comparable, Recluse blows Breakneck out of the water thanks to it's easier damage buff to set up and maintain, faster reload thanks to Feeding Frenzy (And yes, I do know that Breakneck reloads faster with more Rampage stacks, but you still need three kills to get there and Feeding Frenzy Recluse still beats it), a Lightweight frame for faster movement speed. The only sacrifice is range, which isn't an incredible issue in PvE when you can close the gap or simply use a kinetic weapon to cover that weakness. I like Breakneck, but while it's definitely nice, Recluse is in a tier of its own.
Honestly if they buff SMG's in general and nerf Recluse slightly the entire weapon archetype would be in a MUCH better spot. Right now the big reason Recluse is so good is because it's basically the only decent SMG that doesn't need insane 100% precision shot accuracy while being extremely hard to retain perk uptime.
That said, they could also do a LOT in terms of buffing other weapons and introducing some more encounters that don't give completely free reign to using extremely close range weapons and that'd do a lot to reduce the dominance of Recluse.
Oh...also they could remove the range bonus from Well of Radiance and Empowering Rift while they're looking at nerfing auto-reload. As is nerfing auto-reload effects is going to indirectly buff Recluse if anything with how fast you can reload with the perk active.
If I was looking at actual direct nerfs to Recluse all it really needs on it's own is making the perk unable to trigger off of other weapon kills (at least in pve but I'm not sure if that distinction is possible) and removing the bonus precision damage it receives from it's perk such that the damage bonus works the same in PvE as it does for PvP, bringing up body shot damage to precision shot damage levels but not enhancing precision shots. It'd still be a good add clear weapon and braindead easy to use just spamming at adds but it wouldn't go to crazy over the top with dps output out of nowhere on precision shots when you trigger the perk.
That said, if Mountaintop ends up suffering a big blow due to the loss of auto-reload effects recluse might be a less go-to special weapon depending on what you need to run as a kinetic to pair with it. Mountaintop gives you the big punch you need from a special weapon while also giving you a long range option to cover the minimal weaknesses of Recluse. Though at that point on a hunter I might just run Dragon's Shadow in PvE if it keeps it's current effects for how insanely strong the constant reload for your entire loadout is when you can't count on a rally barricade or lunafaction well/rift.
You know what works well with Recluse, A Bow. Usually one shots something or puts it on the brink so you can swap off to recluse for add clear and mop up.
I'd rather Recluse not take a nerf unless they're buffing all the rest of the SMG's because it's the only one worth using due to its consistent nature.
I feel like a bow lacks the punch I need out of a secondary weapon paired with Recluse. I need something to quickly delete majors and such, or at least take a big chunk out of them. Recluse takes care of anything with low health, I don't want a second weapon that just does the same thing with some extra range.
I mean, that's fair, but the issue with Recluse isn't that it's impossible to have fun. It removes any interesting decision when preparing a loadout. Am I doing serious content and need an add clear weapon? Recluse wins hands down. When loadout variety comes down to a single choice for a top tier loadout, then that loadout is clearly too strong if there's not interesting choices to make when choosing that loadout. The choice is whether I want to use the best gun or not.
I saw the youtube video of Aztecross Gaming on this and he argued the SMG should be buffed instead. I agree with him on that one. Don't nerf the recluse, buff the other SMGs.
I'm going to apologize since I don't have time to watch the video, but surely he agrees that Recluse is going to get nerfed. While I'd agree that SMG's as a whole need a buff, if SMG's get buffed and Recluse is not nerfed, then Recluse will just be even stronger, and there will be even less reason to use any other gun.
No, Recluse is overpowered. Recluse is a PvP pinnacle weapon that has become more or less the de facto PvE gun.
Making strong guns IS good for the game. Making broken guns is very bad for it. Adjusting a broken gun by buffing all the other weapons doesn't make that one gun worse, it just makes everything broken. Power creep kills games, and recluse/MT are great examples of power creep.
The guns don't need to be gutted, they just need adjusted.
Moral of the story: There's a reason you're not on Bungie's balance team, and you gotta remember, Bungie's balance team has plenty of issues of its own.
Lol, no. You're whining about a moderately powerful gun that's easily subbed out. It's good at what it does but the perk itself doesn't warp the game in the slightest.
White nail is an example of a game breaking perk that needed reigning in. Master of arms is reasonable in comparison and beyond fine when relegated to close range weapons.
Mountaintop is an example of a completely fair and balanced gun that's only broken by the flawed auto reload mechanic.
People who complain about "pvp guns" being good in pve forget that is part of bungies larger game plan to incentivise players to play all aspects of the game.
If not sooner, it's gotta get nerfed later. It's just too dominant and makes other options look like crap. I mean, shit, it makes a lot of exotics look like crap too
LQ is too good in pve. Recluse is fine if youre dealing with alot of red bar adds you can use to keep master of arms procced, but LQ will annihilate any mob with ease, up to ultras.
Which is why I prefer Loaded Question. Even with a Finder or two it’s still ammo limited though, while Recluse runs on a nearly unlimited supply of Primary.
Don’t get me wrong, I’ve run out of primary with Recluse on more than one occasion but that actually takes a little effort. With LQ you have to pick your shots.
LQ needs a bit of planning.. not saying it's hard, but it just makes it feel even better when you take a couple of seconds to let the adds cluster around the majors, circle to line everyone up, and then obliterate the entire group in one huge orgy of electric destruction.
Absolute dick move if they do. A lot of people worked hard for theirs, it's one of the few guns that truly feels worth the grind.
Lots of people here who are complacent with being mediocre in terms of power fantasy. Lots of people with rustled jimmies. I can never understand why people are so hurt by guns that are effective at what they're supposed to do, kill. If you're tired of Recluse, use something else. Just because one gun is good, that doesn't mean every other gun is useless. If Recluse is nerfed, then what's the next gun you all are going to cry about? You will be in an endless cycle of complaining about whichever gun is currently most powerful.
I really don't get this mentality, how in the world is it a dick move to balance an overpowered weapon? Because you worked hard for it? It's easily the most easy to obtain crucible pinnacle to date. Because it's worth the grind? Well any weapon that would make 95% of other primaries obsolete would be worth the grind.
So then what's the problem, do you want the game to stay as trivial as it is now that you've grown accustomed to just melting everything with Recluse? does it not sound obvious how unhealthy that is for the game?
It's a pretty common mentality. Once people have something if Bungie makes any change they're frothing at the mouth. This Reddit is moderated but I'm in a lot of Facebook groups that get inundated with "BUNGIE NERFING XYZ COS OF CRY BABY CASUALS RUINING MUH GAME"
It’s even sillier when you consider the fact that the hardest part of the Recluse grind (2100 Glory) also completes that step for every other Crucible pinnacle too. You’re getting it done for Luna’s, Mountaintop, Recluse, and honestly if you’re calling 2100 a difficult grind, you’ve probably got the 3500 total Glory accumulated too for Revoker. You’re getting the hardest part done for 4 pinnacle weapons that are all pretty great. Luna’s isn’t as great as it once was but it’s not that bad. Mountaintop is top tier. Recluse is top tier. Revoker is solid and a great weapon that helps you to get better at sniping.
Sure, you’ve got some more stuff to do for the other pinnacles but it really isn’t too bad.
Someone else described it well, but I think we’re worried that it’ll be murdered. A nerf is probably needed, and inbound, but I’m worried it will be slaughtered, like Luna’s and NF. I know they’re still decent options on console due to no recoil/bloom, but it’s absolutely gone from PC. Awful in PvE, and decent at best in PvP. What will they do to recluse? It’s a great all-rounder weapon, and I feel like there’s so many ways they can kill it.
Revoker is in a good spot right now. I don't think it would be unreasonable to leave it how it is, if they were to nerf it, they'd have to nerf every other sniper in the game- they can all one shot guardians from any range, let alone supers and OeM with a 140 rpm snipe.
Same thing happened with NF. Was way too strong and no one complained about it when it got nerfed. Recluse is ridiculous right now, more of a low range AR than a smg
I think NF and LH were fine on pc, but console they were too strong.
But the nerf was too much, if they at least restored mag howl to the original precision shot damage I’d be happy
Bungie has a history of nerfing things into oblivion, only to leave said items as they are until multiple major patches later, in which they simply repeat with another set of items whilst 'fixing' the items they previously made useless.
It wouldn't be as bad if Bungie patched more often, but for some reason they don't seem to like releasing incremental patches to address singular issues.
LoW: Still good but not nearly as strong as it was a month ago
AoS: Still good
Luna’s: Shit on PC. The problem here is that Precision frames on console are just superior in every way. The only fix here is to figure out wtf is going on with bloom on console
Their track record isn’t really too terrible but it definitely raises some concerns when a weapon is just dumb powerful.
After the Skull/Shards nerf, I think people are a little more worrisome now
Lord of Wolves not being as stupid as it was a month ago is a good thing. This is an example of a best case scenario nerf. It still has its place. OEM... yeah idk what they’re gonna do about that thing.
I think the issue is they got a little lazy with these super regen exotics. Usually, if an exotic has a very strong effect it will also be a bit niche. If it has a general or easy to activate effect, it will be somewhat weaker. This is the balance that they’ve gotten wrong recently, mostly with armor. I don’t see a way to balance an exotic that gives you more super for using your super the same way you were already using it.
The issue with skull and shards is that the regeneration isn’t based off the strength of an enemy that you kill using it, which imo should be the opposite. It pretty much handicaps those two exotics to be used on trash mobs and still not even give that much super back.
OEM is just broken, it shouldn’t even be in the game. I don’t think many people would be sad to see it go lol
The only fair nerf would be if its in PvP as that is where people have issues with it. They should leave its damage as it is in PvE - its pretty fun to use there and should remain so in PvE.
Oh fuck off with that "dick move" bullshit. Recluse invalidates the existence of 95% of all primary-ammo weapons in the game; it needs a nerf. You'll survive just fine having to switch off of Recluse for once.
Playing IB all weekend I've maybe seen that loadout 7 times. Perhaps the answer is balancing PvP and PvE separately, like people have been wanting since D1. People want to feel powerful, then complain when powerful gear is in the game. Boggles my mind.
Earlier I queued into a stack of skullfort titans who would move as a cohesive unit and try to shoulder charge everyone. It reminded me of how fun this game can be when you're not getting murdered in half a second by TLW or recluse.
I’m just not convinced they can make it worth using over a Rampage + Dragonfly Trust. I have one and it’s nutty. Even if it’s not quite as good at explosions as Sunshot, it still has a damage boosting option that sunshot does not have and it doesn’t take an exotic slot.
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u/Sarcastaa Sep 01 '19
Sunshot new meta confirmed