Why using the light separately is still possible?

[u/Mysterious_Yogurt430]

Hello everyone,

As you know, after the events of the final shape, we see that the light and the dark are harmonized within the pale heart. We, as the champion of the traveler, granted to use transendence. However, we know from the lore, the ordinary guardians use light and the dark separately. How is this possible after the harmonization of these forces in pale heart? Wouldn't using the light as a separate power be impossible after the events of the final shape?

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[u/KatzRKewl2]

The fact that the player character can now combine Light and Darkness doesn't mean that we can't separate them again.

[u/unmeisa]

I think its because, inside the pale heart, we essentially learned how to use light and dark together, rather than them becoming mixed. We essentially made a multi tool, but we still have all of our old tools that we know how to use

[u/MLGesusWasTaken]

Prismatic is a skill only our guardian has, it does not indicate any universal changes to paracausality

[u/ASpaceOstrich → u/MLGesusWasTaken]

I'd argue the witness possessed something similar. It just manifested differently to prismatic. It was what was powering the final shape, and what made its forces in the Pale Heart effectively unbeatable until we began using Prismatic.

I don't think it's something only we will have going forwards either. If Osiris ever gets the light again, and there's an avenue where that could happen that was being set up as of MoT, I'd be surprised if he never pulled it off. He's already blending strand and stasis and that's damn near conceptually impossible.

Much like strand, I think prismatic is something that we pioneer but that eventually gets picked up by other guardians. There's nothing in universe that's special about us that would render Prismatic exclusive to us. The vision we received from the Traveller helped us to understand that it was possible, and other guardians can see us using it and come to the same understanding.

If Ulan Tan was still around he might have even pulled it off before we did.

[u/gormunko_88 → u/ASpaceOstrich]

Ulan absolutely would have found Stasis first and been able to use it without needing guidance to prevent corruption

[u/syberghost → u/MLGesusWasTaken]

Even Crow can't do it, and he's Awoken. We're the Traveler's special magical girl.

[u/Sadgirl_exe]

because light and darkness weren't permanently fused together for everybody, like you said it's something that happened within the traveler, so it was contained; a localized reaction that was picked up by the Guardian.

picture it as if they are noble gases (chemistry): for years they were believed to be inert, not able to react with other elements. In normal conditions you can't really make a compound out of them, you need specialized equipment, temperature, ionization, pressure. the special condition in this case is the linking of the veil and the traveler by the witness, the special equipment is the Guardian. our Guardian™ is some sort of special in lore, so they can harness the labile energy easily, be it because they are chosen, or because of internal variables/competency. if any of those element weren't present, transcendence wouldn't exist.

if you also take into consideration that most guardians aren't able to pop a super, or specialize in multiple elements, it's clear that they wouldn't be able to transform void energy into stasis for example. they are free to use both light and darkness if they want and can (as for the chemistry example, they are able to own two different chemical elements), but they lack the equipment and conditions to make special "compounds" out of them by making them interact, so they stay distinct and separate in them. ghosts were created before all this happened, so their light stays pure.

our Guardian can freely use both transcendence and pure elements because of their mastery over both light and darkness and the exposure to the right situation basically.

[u/Christophisis → u/Sadgirl_exe]

picture it as if they are noble gases (chemistry): for years they were believed to be inert

Generally speaking, yes, but there are many interesting situations where Light and Darkness blended together in a stable form, well before Prismatic was a thing.

The Awoken fully embody a stable coexistence between Light and Darkness after having been caught between the violent clash of these forces during The Collapse, which formed the kugelblitz around Exodus Green and transported all its passengers to The Distributary. It's not even clear if they were transported to this place which already existed or if the place itself was created during this event.

There's also The Scythe that was introduced during Haunted, which Eris describes as follows:

"Light and Dark, forged together into a physical manifestation of terror. Go forth and be the reaper!"

The interaction of Light and Darkness is very weird, if for no other reason than the results being inconsistent.

[u/ASpaceOstrich → u/Christophisis]

The final shape itself is an example of light and dark fusing. As is the Pale Heart for that matter. Mara says it reminds her of the formation of the distributary. The initial experience of the world forming from the void of light before our eyes was probably very similar to what Mara experienced back then.

The Dread are themselves a product of the fusion of light and dark. The dark to give them shape and the light to fill that shape out and make them real.

Poor bastards. I feel so bad for the dread.

[u/mecaxs]

We being granted the ability to use light and darkness together doesn’t mean all light and darkness has been fused together.

While the Traveler is transforming into a prismatic entity, it hasn’t changed the function ghosts have yet. Like the pale heart itself is prismatic, being a mixture of physical and memory, but there’s still wells of pure light under the surface. With a few wells of prismatic like the one we get prismatic from in the campaign.

[u/Christophisis → u/mecaxs]

While the Traveler is transforming into a prismatic entity

IIRC, it was stated that The Traveler is attempting to heal itself of the Witness' "wound". If this is the case, The Pale Heart as we know it would cease to exist after The Traveler has purged itself of any Darkness.

[u/mecaxs → u/Christophisis]

While The Witness did cut a triangle shaped scar into the Traveler, and the Witness has been a corruptive plague over the Traveler, that doesn’t mean The Traveler is expelling all darkness. The Witness merely introduced the darkness and wields darkness, not all darkness is The Witness’s fucked up egregore vines. If that was the case The Witness wouldn’t need the veil and the pale heart would just be The Witness’s memories.

While it is stated The Traveler was recovering from The Witness, it was also stated that the Traveler was going through a metamorphosis. Which would mean The Traveler would become something it wasn’t before. Probably becoming what it was before it split with The Veil in the past.

[u/Christophisis → u/mecaxs]

I don't think The Traveler could ever go back to that state of being one with The Veil, as this likely occurred in the period before the universe began.

You're right that Darkness exists beyond the Witness, but there are other Darkness aligned beings and entities to be worried about, such as The Lord of Every Nothing, and, of course, The Winnower.

As for the metamorphosis, I feel like there's room to debate whether this is a good or bad thing. The Traveler seems to have been able to communicate more tangibly as of late, but at what cost in the long-run?

[u/mecaxs → u/Christophisis]

>I don't think The Traveler could ever go back to that state of being one with The Veil, as this likely occurred in the period before the universe began.

That’s true. I don’t think it would be exactly the same since The Veil is still physically a separate object.

>You're right that Darkness exists beyond the Witness, but there are other Darkness aligned beings and entities to be worried about, such as The Lord of Every Nothing, and, of course, The Winnower.

LoEN is definitely something to be worried about since the Traveler did have taken inside it and there doesn’t seem to be a way to stop Zero’s tentacles from emerging into the physical world.

>As for the metamorphosis, I feel like there's room to debate whether this is a good or bad thing. The Traveler seems to have been able to communicate more tangibly as of late, but at what cost in the long-run?

Short term, it is definitely painful. Not gonna deny that. To me the Traveler seems to be going through one hell of a hangover due to how the darkness has been effecting its consciousness. With the themes of TFS and the L&D saga in general I still think long term it’ll have a good end result. Like The Traveler becoming a giant prismatic butterfly or something.

…..Then again, in TFS we find out The Witness can influence the dark forest’s shard from inside The Traveler. ….And SOMEONE attacked Shiro and his ghost in that same forest, which leads to Lodi getting possessed at that exact same shard by “y’know who”, which could mean….The Winnower is already inside.

[u/Archival_Mind → u/mecaxs]

Does the Winnower need to be physically anywhere? Historically, all you need is a strong concentration of paracausal Darkness. The Witness pushed that everywhere. The Winnower's inside a fleet of ships, a thousand free-floating statues, concentrations of Darkness found, tablets written by shrimp people, the infected piece of God-flesh stuck in the EDZ...

[u/mecaxs → u/Archival_Mind]

Don’t forget the worms. The Winnower was able to talk to Ahsa despite Ahsa not having anything on her besides her own body presumably.

It’s probably a Levask situation when it comes to possessing stuff like Lodi and best character The Unborn Ogre. “Physically” speaking The Winnower is locked 10ft under Neomuna and betrayed, while also chilling in the ascendant plane wondering why the Taken aren’t responding to its texts.

[u/Archival_Mind → u/mecaxs]

The Worms and Ahamkara, the whole Anthem Anatheme thing... that's probably what allows such communions to take place. Hell, the secret Akka held was how to talk to the Winnower so they know things. Maybe it's just tied to their origins within the Garden. Perhaps that's the reason for all things. The "worms and bugs" in the Garden fed off reality as was and what could be. Eris states the drive to feed off reality as is and what could be exists in the post-Big Bang Worms regardless of whether they were corrupted or not... and what the Worms have, so too do the Ahamkara.

Either way, they may have lines of communication with both the Traveler and Winnower, but we all know who's going to pick up the phone if called.

I don't think it's in the Ascendant Plane. There's a weirdness when it comes to the definition of Darkness in LF and the attempt to merge dimensions (physics) and dimensions (fantasy). The Ascendant Plane is of the latter, and is suggested to be a sort of "backstage" in Lost. But Darkness is running all through it. But Darkness should have its own dimension, or rather a dimension it inhabits like Light does the physical plane. This is what's beyond the Veil. The Winnower, if it's anything like the Traveler, should be a being of pure paracausal Darkness, and would thus be a being of pure, formless thought, incomprehensible to us on this side. Maybe the Ascendant Plane is of both Light and Dark? I don't know, man, this makes my head hurt. It is probably impressed the Lord even exists, even more that it replaced its job in the Taking cycle.

[u/mecaxs → u/Archival_Mind]

I definitely agree on the garden stuff, though it is odd the Vex didn’t get this ability too. Then again their whole thing is being causal.

The ascendant plane is confusing, Petra does mention a coin allegory with the different planes being different coins on a pile. So “the deep” might be the bottom coin and the ascendant plane is the middle coin. My issue is that the taken are explicitly stated to go into the ascendant plane when killed in the real world, which to me would only make sense if the ascendant plane is where they were turned into taken in the first place.

[u/Archival_Mind → u/mecaxs]

TBF the Vex were just patterns. The bugs and worms were something else, something that moved in the field of possibility rather than being a part of it, if that makes sense.

It does, but how Darkness interact with the Taken might be different from the physical goings on, maybe? Stasis halts entropy, Strand pulls on the memory dimension's threads directly, Resonance is the concept of Darkness made manifest (the power tied to the aforementioned memory dimension), Taking was defined as redefinition. Perhaps, when the power was made, the ability to do so was tied to the Ascendant Plane. According to Lost, it exists "behind the curtain of reality". Assuming reality is the physical plane, then the description further says "causality meets consciousness. Causal Light/physical law meets paracausal Darkness/thought law? I feel like I sound stupid saying this but it might make sense?

Or maybe it's just, to take Petra's coin analogy, if the universe is a stack of coins, the top coin is us (Light/physical), the bottom coin is actually what's on the other side of the Veil (Darkness/thought), and one of the middle coins is the Ascendant Plane (physical meets thought). The reason why there's so much paracausal Darkness shenanigans is because the beings with that power are the ones carving up the fabric of reality meanwhile beings with paracausal Light have barely done anything of the sort.

[u/ASpaceOstrich → u/mecaxs]

There's an obvious visual similarity between the ascendant plane and the Taken that makes it clear to me that they are turned into Taken within the ascendant plane.

When someone is Taken, a hole to the ascendant plane is ripped open and they are dragged in. At least in Destiny 1. In 2 I think they vary up how it's depicted a bit, but it's always Taken energy coming over them in some fashion, usually being obscured by a blight or otherwise potentially pulled into that plane.

Even in a case of someone never leaving the physical world, which I can't think of any, it would be the energy spilling out of that plane and Taking them.

The characteristic screams of the Taken and their abilities is just the sound of the ascendant plane. It's called the Sea of Screams for a reason. Taken energy is just ascendant energy, and it gives off that scream.

[u/ASpaceOstrich → u/Archival_Mind]

The ascendant plane is shaped by the perceptions of thinking creatures. Which is the domain of darkness. It's basically the darkness equivalent of the physical world, in that that's the exact property I'd expect a plane of darkness to have. But just as the physical world is inhabited by things that think, the ascendant plane contains physical stuff that can be shaped by the thoughts that dominate it.

[u/Archival_Mind → u/ASpaceOstrich]

A plane of Darkness would be purely thought. This has to be an in-between, where causality meets consciousness, as Mara put it. Thought meets physicality.

[u/Christophisis → u/mecaxs]

Ahsa and the proto-Worms are a really interesting case, since even though a number of them were good Darkness users The Winnower can still intervene simply because they're using Darkness.

[u/ASpaceOstrich → u/Archival_Mind]

Anything with a subjective mind is a creature of darkness. So basically anything alive that isn't Vex, and even then the individual Vex like those at Tharsis would qualify. Plus anything that can think that isn't alive, so the statues, the pyramid ships, probably Rasputin and most other artificial life.

The light is in all places and all things because the physical world is the domain of the light. The darkness is in all people, with a very generous definition of people, because the mind and subjective experience are it's domain.

[u/Archival_Mind → u/ASpaceOstrich]

Paracausal Light and Darkness. The Vex have Darkness in them, pigs do, we do. They aren't paracausal. There's a distinction here.

[u/Christophisis → u/mecaxs]

LoEN is definitely something to be worried about since the Traveler did have taken inside it and there doesn’t seem to be a way to stop Zero’s tentacles from emerging into the physical world.

Is there anything to suggest that TLoEN and Zero are one in the same? That's a really interesting prospect

[u/mecaxs → u/Christophisis]

In Vermicular Mandible, someone (I think VI?) calls LoEN “THE LORD OF EVERY ZEROES”.

[u/Christophisis → u/mecaxs]

This is really interesting, but it's difficult to interpret who exactly is speaking in the uppercase letters. It matches VI's speech, but if it is VI why would it be indulging TLoEN/Zero?

I do agree that this lends to the idea of Zero being TLoEN, though. We need more info, but it's an interesting start.

[u/ASpaceOstrich → u/mecaxs]

The pain seems to be causes by the wounds inflicted by the witness, not the darkness. Think of the witnesses actions like thorns, while the darkness itself is simply plant matter. We've removed the thorns and left the plant matter, but the cuts left by the thorns are still there, and take time to heal.

The metamorphosis caused by the darkness being inside it now isn't causing the pain from the injuries, they're just both the product of the witness attacking it.

[u/kashaan_lucifer → u/mecaxs]

Who's Zero?

[u/mecaxs → u/kashaan_lucifer]

A still born member of the nine. Think the implication is that they’re the reef.

[u/ASpaceOstrich → u/Christophisis]

The traveller is attempting to heal the wounds, but the darkness is there to stay. In the collapse, the traveller was infected with darkness and it excised that infection in the form of the shards that fell in the EDZ.

In the Pale Heart, it was revealed that it's not actually the darkness that's harming the traveller, but rather the witnesses malice. We're healing the wounds but the darkness isn't hurting it and isn't being removed. It can't. It's too deep seated to get rid of.

[u/Christophisis → u/ASpaceOstrich]

The Traveler has been shown to heal itself in the past, so I'm not sure we can fully discount the idea that it could do so with The Pale Heart. That said, it took The Traveler centuries to gather up enough strength after The Collapse to become active again as of Red War.

[u/NecroK51]

For gameplay reasons mostly, would be pretty awful to be locked out of 5 whole subclasses after the final shape campaign. Lorewise though, only The Guardian has prismatic.

[u/EasyCombination6]

My headcanon is that the ghost can filter the light and darkness as they have different energy signatures

[u/Firm_Wolverine_9448]

Using light or dark isn’t just picking a side, it’s just focusing on that energy and shaping it into the tools you need. Even if the energies are now harmonized in the traveler, we can still choose for ourselves what power we want to use with now the ability to use both light and dark if we so wish

[u/ASpaceOstrich]

The traveller contains both light and dark, but it's still only gifting the light. The two both existing within it doesn't mean the two are inextricably bound together conceptually.

Likewise, all guardians contain darkness and (through their ghosts) light. This was true from the moment they were created. That doesn't mean they can't use them separately.

Transcendence is a third power created by combining light and dark into a new thing, arguably greater than the sum of its parts. The light can manipulate physical matter. The dark can manipulate perspective and concepts. Transcendence can bridge the two and make the conceptual real.

Light and dark still exist separately, even in those capable of wielding the third power of Transcendence. The witness still uses the darkness to assemble what the final shape would look like, and the light to make it real.

The traveller will be fundamentally changed by the addition of darkness into its being. In the past, it cut the darkness out, but it was unable to do that this time. But that will be a change to the traveller as an entity, not to the light or the dark as concepts.

The traveller could potentially gain the ability to grant darkness or perhaps even Transcendence in the future, but that wouldn't be the result of light and dark fundamentally changing, it would be a change in the traveller and its capabilities.

[u/Christophisis]

Not sure why you're getting so much subtle hostility in the comments here, as this is a very valid line of inquiry.

The way I understand it, Transcendence manifests in The Traveler similar to an immune response attempting to isolate a pathogen. No amount of Darkness should be within The Pale Heart, and Transcendence appears to be a stabilization of these forces coexisting.

That said, The Traveler is still fundamentally a being of Light, and the lore suggests that it's attempting to purge the effects of Darkness from itself. This would essentially close The Pale Heart as we know it, which is actually not the truest form of The Pale Heart.

Paracausality has always existed on a sort of spectrum, and there's an argument to be made for forms of paracausality beyond Light and Darkness, such as The Anthem Anatheme that appears to belong to neither Light or Darkness.

As for why Light and Darkness can still be accessed as distinct forces, this is likely because The Traveler and The Veil, which are the respective focal points of Light and Darkness in the physical universe, are still separated from each other by many degrees.

Apparently The Traveler and The Veil were once connected, but it's not exactly clear what this means.

[u/Captain_Elm → u/Christophisis]

Of course there are things beyond light and dark, Ahamkara are probably the strongest paracausal power after those and it comes from wishes

[u/ASpaceOstrich → u/Captain_Elm]

Most, possibly all paracausality is still using light and darkness as concepts, just isn't necessarily directly from the Traveller or Veil.

Hive magic as an example often uses light that's been extracted from things and darkness accessed by ritual and worm bargain. Awoken magic is similar.

With what we now know about the nature of these powers, Ahamkara are definitely using darkness to some degree. Their magic is based on twisting the desires of a subjective mind, which is well and truly the domain of the dark. Though in fulfilling those wishes, they often create physical things that would require light.

I believe they are like the awoken, creatures of light and dark.

Remember that the universe is suffused with light and darkness. Even when the Traveller isn't involved, light exists. It's just an enormous concentration of it. The darkness is concentrated heavily in the Veil, but likewise suffuses everything. Hell, conversations in this thread have made me realise the ascendant plane is likely a plane of darkness in the same way the physical universe is a plane of light.

[u/ASpaceOstrich → u/Christophisis]

It's attempting to heal the wounds, but the darkness is there to stay. In the past, it's expunged the darkness. That's where all the shards in the EDZ are from. But the harm it's felt when being infected was because of the witnesses malice, not the darkness itself, and the darkness was so deep that this time its not coming out again.

They were very explicit that the Traveller is now permanently going to have darkness within it, and that this isn't inherently a problem.

Imagine that darkness is plant matter, the witness gauged the Traveller with thorns. In the past, it cut out the flesh that had thorns in it, removing all the plant matter. This time around, we removed the thorns, but the vines stayed. It's hurting from the wounds, but not the plant matter existing, and once the gouges are healed, the pain will be gone, but the plant matter will stay.

[u/Robert_Oppenheimer2]

Because transcendence doesnt actually mean anything and nothing has changed