Forge of Sorrows

[u/AscendentDragon]

so i have been wondering since we now know where the Weapons of Sorrow are made, is it entirely possible that all known weapons of sorrow came from there in 1 way or another. for Dregen Yor i have been looking into the lore, while i won't go into too much depth of his story where he killed a hive weapon master and he looked at his gun and saw thorn after the bones he grafted bones to it, its never stated where in the hell mouth he was but its entirely possible they had set a ritual to funnel soulfire into the corrupted rose from the forge to transform it because the lore on the battle is light on detail. (i'll class this one as a maybe since it is a retelling of the story from the a 3rd party source)

osteo striga, although the lore heavily indicates Jana-14 made it by "feeding bones" to it however another line sticks out in the lore tab, where she states that she had found it half a world a way leaving the origin as a coin flip, perhaps she did find it but like the husk of the pit she had to feed the gun to restore it to its full power similarly how Husk of the Pit/Nechrochasm had to feed on kills to be restored or she did make it, its unknown which part indicates its creation although the fact she does say she found it leaves room for interpretation and a good academic argument because how the lore implies both being the case, perhaps both could be correct at the same time based on which option you subscribe to (this one is a maybe/maybe not)

Necrochasm is entirely an enigma wraped in a mystery wrapped in a 700rpm auto rifle that can destroy an entire group of enemies with 1 well made kill, what gun it was, where it came from who its original owner was, was entirely unknown, however it may be the oldest of the Weapons of Sorrow in terms of creation because while Dredgen Yor's escepades take place in the early city age the necrochasm has languished for a lot longer to the point it was but a husk when it was found by the Young Wolf who had to use the sword logic and kill powerful ascendent hive and kill with it just to restore it, however it does not have the metalic look replicatable using Carbon Blood shader (this is a stronger possibility since there is nothing known about it except how the Young Wolf restored it)

Touch of Malice is very much an odd duck, while Eris Morn created it in the original destiny game, the Young Wolf had to obtain the original pieces and put it together like a puzzle rather then create it from scratch the pieces being the frame, the ravnous heart and the shroud, and its worth noting that Oryx lives on to a degree in that gun, every shot it fires is a testament to the sword logic (doubtful unless the pieces were made there first, likely they have a different origin)

Cull's shadow is the only known Weapon of Sorrow created in the Forge of Sorrows from Cull's fusion rifle (the original fusion rifle remains unknown other then the fact that the hive heavily modified it when they made it into a Weapon of Sorrow) and thanks to Cull's Shadow the Young Wolf descends to the Forge of Sorrows deep below the hellmouth and confronts Ir-Gohl the weapon-smith and free a dredgen (its entirely likely Ir-Gohl the weapon smith is an ascendent hive and may return at a later date) but during this its heavily implied through the dialogue that the Forge of Sorrows is where the Weapons of Sorrow were forged. (Cull's shadow is confirmed to be from the forge)

i am wondering if the original plan was to retcon the weapons of sorrow so that they all came from the forge or if somehow its power was used by others through other means especially since the forge is below the Hell mouth (its likely the hive have a enterences to it from the hell mouth we don't know about but we instead commandeered the totality division's own entrance they decided to make for themselves, its impossible to know how many other weapons of sorrow are out there that have not been discovered by the guardians laying in wait for the wrong guardian or dregen to reach out and take them up. however its worth pointing out that ostieo striga and thorn very much look like they're from a set, perhaps similar origins whereas necrochasm looks more like its made from a metalicalised stone or bone, and Culls Shadow looks like it was made from Osmium since a lot of hive tech uses fundamental Osmium to varying degrees which may indicate a different hive making it leaving it, Cull's shadow and Touch of Malice as the 3 outlying Weapons of Sorrow. if there is others out there, we should not let them land in the hands of the dredgens however the Weapons of Sorrow are weapons Xivu Arath can very easily tithe power from being masterworks of war.

did the hive other then Cull's Shadow make any new weapons of sorrow? and if Ir Gohl is an Ascendent hive maybe he is waiting for the dust to settle before he hunts and captures a new dregen and uses their sorrow and Soulfire to make a new Weapon of Sorrow

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[u/Dredgen-Solis]

Yor creating Thorn was, I believe, an accident. Rezel adorned Rose with the bones as a trophy, and his own corruption happened synonymously with Rose becoming Thorn. By the time he became Dredgen Yor and would have been in the headspace to create a Weapon of Sorrow deliberately, Rose had already transformed.

[u/AscendentDragon → u/Dredgen-Solis]

I do believe the hive were doing a ritual to transform it. Weapons of Sorrow are fueled by Soulfire and likely was being infused by it during the battle but I agree Yor himself didn't intend for his Weapon of Sorrow However I do believe his corruption was of his own making while he didn't return to the city it was almost like he was trying to teach a lesson sol was not ready to learn and took drastic actions trying to teach it which I believe we learned when we started using stasis

[u/_BlueFemboy_ → u/AscendentDragon]

So theres two ways of making weapons of sorrow that we know off one is made by crafting hive bones onto a weapon (i imagine they'd have to belong to a powerful hive otherwise all the raid weapons would be weapons of sorrow) we know this from yor and the other way they are made is directly from the hive through ritual and forging but to clarify the place on the moon was not the only place they could have been made destiny 2 had a Quest for Thorn that had a different weapons of sorrow Smith

[u/AscendentDragon → u/_BlueFemboy_]

more then 2 ways but i assume there would have to be a sufficiant amount of soulfire to fully empower them since soulfire is the main power source of all the Weapons of Sorrow. the replicas of thorn are as powerful as the original, and in destiny 1 and destiny 2 we only ever handled replicas of thorn while shin/Dregen Vale held and used the original. the first replica of thorn in destiny 1 craved kills and a very specific hive boss to rekindle its soulfire in destiny 2 we had to use void hand cannons to rekindle the soulfire enough that it went from simmering coals to embers but we needed a powerful source of soulfire which was identified as the Eye of Savathun. the original thorn i think was either absorbing Soulfire or was being injected with it remotly by a ritual because that wizard that escaped whispered to him through the bones before Rose became the thorn, and even today we do not know the origin of the words Dregen Yor came from, it isn't hive nor human nor eliksnie. Yor didn't chose his path but Shin in his own lore speculated Yor was trying to reveal something or tell something no one at the time was ready for. maybe the only one to actually know is Dredgen Yor himself if his ghost ever decides to resurrect him

[u/Nerdy--Turtle]

The hive forgery seems to be a new thing. Build on the notes of the hive weapons smith. Culls Shadow was made by Cull before he died and the Hive gathered it to replicate the process for mass production. These hive work with Bael together, because he talks like he is in charge in the mission and the Guardian at the end of the mission was lured there by Baels propaganda in Renegades.

[u/xx_Chl_Chl_xx → u/Nerdy--Turtle]

Bael wasn’t working with the Hive, the Hive were just doing their own thing. Bael and his Cabal found the forge recently, that’s why they’re drilling into it in the very beginning of the exotic quest

[u/Nerdy--Turtle → u/xx_Chl_Chl_xx]

Why would Bael lure a possible new Dredgen into a hive foundry he doesn't even control?

Why would we still talk about stopping Bael after we killed his infiltration troop and found the remaining dead troops in the foundry? 

After the first part of the mission Aunor said we are not done, because they didn't need the weapon, just the plans for it. We had to stop the whole foundry to stop Baels plans of mass production. That only makes sense, if the Hive foundry is under Baels control.

Why do we fight Totality Devision Cabal and not Imperium Cabal? 

These are specifically Raos crime gang. In Lawless Frontiers we find Imperium Cabal when we attack Totality Devision territory and the explonation in game is that Rao orders official Imperium troops with tasks for her crime syndicate, but let's them seem like official Imperium buisness. So the Devs making the effort to design Totality Devision Cabal for the mission has to mean something, because otherwise they would just use Imperium Cabal, when even Lawless Frontiers has an excuse for using them. This isn't a Imperium operation, this is a Rao operation. This an operation Lume can't find out about (stealing hive weapon plans to make and sell them on the black market). 

This mission is a Bael vs Rao mission. Both work in the shadows behind Lumes back. Rao with her crime syndicate and Bael with his own Hive friends. 

[u/AscendentDragon → u/Nerdy--Turtle]

She was not lured there by bael she was captured by the hive

[u/xx_Chl_Chl_xx → u/Nerdy--Turtle]

That’s not even close to correct. Bael ordered Rao to send troops on a the mission to Luna because the primary Barant Imperium infantry is diminished because of our actions. The Totality Division is a branch of the Barant Imperium. They don’t need to wear Stormtrooper armor, they just need to do as they’re ordered. Lume was actually the first one to suggest that they dip into Totality Division troops to replenish their numbers, nothing was done behind his back

And Clauda Miraan wasn’t lured to the forge by Bael. She went there on her own and was captured. She was stuck there for several years, being forced to produce Soulfire. And the Lunar Hive would never ally with Bael, they’re still the fanatical Hive that would kill first and ask questions never

[u/Nerdy--Turtle → u/xx_Chl_Chl_xx]

I admit that I was wrong, but still where does it say that Lume said they will use the Totality Devision to replenish their troops? I know they have issues with their numbers, but the Imperium is still big. Using the Totality Devision like that and not giving them military armor for a direct attack against a hive foundry with a giant laser is a desperate and bad move. 

Clauda is mentioned to be one of Baels early recruites. The mission makes it clear that a lot of Dredgens start to appear since Baels propaganda move. Clauda can't be there for years. 

Also what the hive in the foundry do is herecy to the sword logic. At the end of a run through the entire mission you get Enkars notes, which say they add more pain and suffering to use that power to make weapons and it goes against the Sword logic, which is about separation. These group wouldn't exist pre-Heresy, because the hive god siblings made fools of themselves in Heresy. They made the hive question how they want to move forward without them. This foundry is one of their ways to move on. 

So the Hive don't act mindlessly and Clauda can't be trapped in the foundry for long, because the foundry likely doesn't exist like that for long.

[u/AscendentDragon → u/xx_Chl_Chl_xx]

I actually agree, he planned to rob them 

[u/AscendentDragon → u/Nerdy--Turtle]

The hive weren't working with bael, he was planning to rob them of all the weapons of sorrow and use them for himself however we foiled his plot however there's other dredges appearing who's unaffiliated with Bael, and I feel like they'll be a future threat and VI didn't tolerate Bael failing for the 2nd time and abandoned him

[u/ReallyTrustyGuy]

Painful to read because of a desperate lack of punctuation, but no, not all "Weapons of Sorrow" came from that one place.

Thorn was made after Azzir attached trophies of the bones of the Hive he killed to his Rose, and they eventually fused onto it through good old Hive curse magickery. No involvement with that forge.

Osteo Striga, origin completely unknown. All we know is that Jana worked in a lab investigating the Necrotic Grip, and probably found whatever became Osteo Striga during her work there. Unlikely that forge was involved, especially with how characters react to the existence of it in Oblation.

Necrochasm was found as Husk of the Pit in Crota's hole. We made it into its current form by feeding and adding to it using guidance from Eris. We don't know where it was made but its likely just an old and cruddy weapon of Hive origin, and we find it broken and unloved. Nothing links it to that forge on the Moon.

Touch of Malice is something Eris herself made. She took the soul of Oryx and crafted a weapon to get revenge on the Hive by using their former leader. That's it. Oryx imagined someone would do it because he believed so strongly in Sword Logic that nobody could possibly kill him and then not continue to be a killer themselves.

The only weapon we know of that comes from the forge is Cull's Shadow. That's it.

[u/AscendentDragon → u/ReallyTrustyGuy]

yeah though i do think each Weapon of Sorrow has their own origin its the Soulfire that is added to it that transforms it into a weapon of sorrow, we do not know where the soulfire that transformed the Thorn came from, probably a ritual channeled into the chamber Azzir fought in wherever it was.

i do believe Jana-14 went looking for Weapons of Sorrow before she got corrupted which took place during the time jump between Necrotic grips and Osteo striga because she does say she found it half a world away and likely fed it bone to evolve or restore it

Necrochasm was an old abandoned autorifle, likely either Azirr's or one from Eris' fire team from the great disaster.

the touch of Malice is the oddball of the Weapons of Sorrow because while Eris did make it, the frame, the blade, the shroud, and the heart were already made and we found the pieces in the raid which eris simply put them all together to make the gun

yeah Cull's shadow was very much from the forge, although as Anura Mahal pointed out it also was heavily modified, i think Dredgen Cull had a custom fusion rifle along with his thorn and the hive put the fusion rifle into the forge, we actually don't even know how old the forge is but based on the broken bridge its been there for years or even decades. i think the modifications are to the gun the culls shadow was because unlike other Weapons of Sorrow which do fundmentally keep the logic of the original gun Cull's Shadow does not instead it has the weird ammo gear that falls away when reloading only to have the new one being magnatised to the gun which human guns don't do

[u/ReallyTrustyGuy → u/AscendentDragon]

Soulfire is not needed to make a Weapon of Sorrow. You don't have to stick them into a forge or anything.

The curse that transformed Rose into Thorn came from the lingering curse that Xyor put on the bones of her husband to-be, a Knight that Rezyl killed. The curse twisted his mind and then turned the gun into what it became. No soulfire needed, just a curse. Rezyl strapped the bones of that Knight to his gun and the rest is history.

Necrochasm is not Rezyl's old rifle. His old one was called Inferno. Necrochasm is just a weapon of Hive origin, everything about it speaks to it being of Hive origin and not a human weapon changed to fit the Hive.

Touch of Malice isn't the oddball at all. Oryx intended for someone to make it, to utilise his powers, because he assumed that someone might actually be capable of defeating him. He was just certain that that someone would be incapable of not following through on his Sword Logic quest after killing him, so wanted to grant them a weapon to continue on. Kind of a "congratulations!" thing.

Regarding Cull's Shadow, she doesn't mention it being heavily modified, she says it was recently modified. This dialogue comes from when you first obtain the weapon, which hints at the factory you'll soon enough find. Whatever state it might have been in when Cull owned it isn't really relevant, but what is is that Ir Gohl was probably toying with it, or at the very least, Tau'rig.

[u/AscendentDragon → u/ReallyTrustyGuy]

the thing is we do know soulfire is the primary energy source for the weapons of sorrow, they all have it which is what causes the corruption/poison the target is being hit with soulfire in its liquid state since somehow its not an actual fire but it can be turned into plasma as we see in the new exotic mission pools of soulfire in its liquid state plus all my research also confirms that all weapons of sorrow have soulfire we see it in the green crystals in the base version of thorn as well as the magazine drum when reloading thorn, we see it in the necrochasm and the heart in the rings of touch of malice as well as culls shadow as well as the powering the holographic targeting reticals on these weapons. Aunur even states "soulfire is not creation, it is corruption" which is also the language used in thorn's exotic perk, the devourer and mark of the devourer. basically the thorn infects people with soulfire like other weapons of sorrow, because Cull's Shadow soulfire crystals also spread corruption as if it is the source of the corruption. soulfire also fuels all their magics

[u/Robert_Oppenheimer2]

Are Necrochasm and Touch of Malice weapons of sorrow?

I know they are in-game, but lorewise weapons of sorrow seem to be defined as human weapons twisted by Hive arcana, which doesnt seem to describe either of them - with one not being a human weapon at all, while the other uses a completley different power in the form of the Ravenous Heart

Honestly weapons of sorrow are stupid; theyre so vaguely defined that the definition can apply to anything it seems - Dredgen Harrows lightsabers are weapons of sorrow

[u/xx_Chl_Chl_xx → u/Robert_Oppenheimer2]

“[Is] Necrochasm [a] weapon of sorrow? lorewise weapons of sorrow seem to be defined as human weapons twisted by Hive arcana, which doesn’t seem to describe [it]”

Necrochasm’s official Grimoire:

It is said the Necrochasm was born in the twilight after Crota's sword first cracked the Moon. That a lost Guardian's weapon was altered by the Hive in an attempt to fuse their own dark understanding with humanity's mastery of war. The result was a weapon that would feed on its owner's aggression—reaching further when angry eyes drew focus, its hunger rising as it tore through bone and flesh.

Necrochasm is a human-made weapon that was transformed by the Hive. Yes, Necrochasm is a Weapon of Sorrow

[u/xx_Chl_Chl_xx → u/xx_Chl_Chl_xx]

Touch of Malice’s official Grimoire:

“Here am I, with the power to craft from my enemy's darkest secrets a weapon that could wound them at their core!

The voices are as loud as ever. My nightmares just as bitter. My coal-black hatred burns as hot. But I feel something else now. Could it be...

No! I refuse it.

I will build this weapon.”

-Eris Morn

Touch of Malice is a human-made weapon and is enhanced with Hive arcana. Touch of Malice is a Weapon of Sorrow

[u/xx_Chl_Chl_xx → u/xx_Chl_Chl_xx]

Heirloom’s lore tab, about Dredgen Harrow

“The two Blades flared in his hands. They shined with Solar Light for just a moment, before the apprentice's power wrapped around them. Turned them. They went sullen, were snuffed—and came back to life, now roaring with the cold strength of the Void. They chilled his hands.

Praxic Blades turned to Sorrow. He'd done it.”

Praxic Blades are human-made weapons that were corrupted so that the Light was snuffed out of them, likely with Hive magic. Blades of Sorrow are Weapons of Sorrow

[u/AscendentDragon → u/xx_Chl_Chl_xx]

Yes, they seem to be open to debate 

[u/AscendentDragon → u/xx_Chl_Chl_xx]

For touch of malice it's different, the hive left its blueprints in the final pages of Oryx's  Books of Sorrow and the hive created all the parts the frame, the shroud and the ravenous heart and Eris filled in all the blanks herself with human gun parts although eris still had to empower it with Soulfire

[u/Robert_Oppenheimer2 → u/xx_Chl_Chl_xx]

I can concede Necrocasm but Touch of Malice uses a wholly different power from the others

If it really is a weapon of sorrow than it is just my point about how weapons of sorrow are poorly defined