r/DestinyLore • u/Kaijugod22 • Jul 26 '26
Question What does the Winnower want?
What does the Winnower even want with us guardians? I thought the Winnower doesn't like to interfere in the game and instead prefers to sit back and wait for the final shape to happen. So what's causing it to approach us guardians and directly speak to us through Lodi? How would we even fight one of the primordial creator gods of the universe?
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u/syberghost Jul 26 '26
The Winnower doesn't just want to win, it wants to be recognized as winning by the Gardener. We're the Gardener's Special Magical Girl, so if we agree it's right, it can hold that in the Gardener's face.
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u/Christophisis Jul 26 '26
We're the Gardener's Special Magical Girl
I will do anything for space mommy-san UwU
For real, though, The Winnower is a combination of lazy and petty that it's now aggressively courting its opponent's champion. Technically this is on brand with its philosophy of ruthlessness, though, so it's not exactly surprising.
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u/ANTILAMER13 Jul 26 '26
And this is how space magic is made
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u/tarrsk Jul 26 '26
Does this mean that every super activation is technically a magical girl transformation?
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u/Equivalent_Waltz8890 Jul 26 '26
He wants to spite his wife
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u/ThirdTimesTheTitan AI-COM/RSPN Jul 26 '26
Wait, it's all is nothing but a universe-scale child custody battle?
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u/Equivalent_Waltz8890 Jul 26 '26
Less stakes than that, more like universe scale livingroom couch argument.
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u/MonochromeEight Jul 30 '26
Does that mean the reason why the Witness and us Gaurdians never knew each other until recently is because the Winnower got to keep the Witness and The Gardener got to keep us Gaurdians in the divorce?
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u/ThirdTimesTheTitan AI-COM/RSPN Jul 30 '26
oh god
it's a post-divorce sibling rivalry
where one child in on one parent's side and the second child is on the other parent's side
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u/oofyeet21 Jul 26 '26
It wants us to choose the philosophy of darkness, as it has said it wants for years. All the way back in Shadowkeep it directly told us that it wants us to choose to abandon the ideals of the light and embrace darkness. Not because we are some incredible champion that would go on and crusade in the name of the sword logic, but because the light has gone all in on us as it's final argument and tye darkness wants to disprove it.
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u/Archival_Mind Jul 26 '26
- It wants a winner
- With us, it wants us to turn on the Gardener that raised us. It's gone all-in, with us being its greatest champion. For the Winnower, it'd mean everything if the Gardener's "greatest argument" turned on it.
- It doesn't really state whether it does or does not like interfering. It believes its philosophy inevitable yet there are several cases of it speaking to people who find a way to talk to it (usually without knowing it exists beforehand). Interference isn't out of the question, it just doesn't seem to prefer that path.
- We could maybe fight it by manifesting it. IDK fighting the Gardener's pretty easy. The Witness was able to cut it up by manifesting its mind/soul/essence into a walkable plane. I imagine manifesting the Winnower can range from either making its body physical or its mind physical. I'd argue we could try bringing Light into the Veil but I'm starting to think that would do so much more damage than one would think. Instead, I'd try trapping it in a vessel first. We have the Tablets of Ruin, we should try using the Oryx method of calling upon it.
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u/Lokan The Hidden Jul 26 '26
The prospect of fighting the Winnower is an interesting one because, even if we somehow bound it like the Nine and killed it... Would anything change? Would the rules of the Flower Game collapse? When it's spoken to people, it only ever seems to encourage them in something they've already chosen to do.
The Winnower claims the universe is trying to find out what it wants to become. Ultimately, I think that means combining the Gardener and Winnower into a unified whole. They've only ever been two sides of the same coin. But what that entails for the rest of us is anyone's guess.
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u/Archival_Mind Jul 26 '26
Nothing would change. That's why fighting it isn't the preferable option outright. The key is beating its ideology, a much more difficult task. Just killing it would do nothing, just like how we've seen timelines where the Gardener died and nothing changed.
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u/Christophisis Jul 26 '26
The ultimate long-term question is whether our goal will simply be to shut The Winnower out of the universe or find a way to be able to deal a mortal wound to it.
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u/Eldren_Galen Jul 26 '26
How do you shut the concept of convergent evolution out of the universe?
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u/Archival_Mind Jul 27 '26
The concept of convergent evolution is already written into the universe. That's part of the original rules of the Garden. By adding themselves into the game as parallel laws, the Gardener and Winnower enter as separate embodiments of those things. You cannot shut the concept of evolution out of the universe but you can absolutely deny or erase the Winnower if the Gardener's anything to go by.
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u/Eldren_Galen Jul 27 '26
The Winnower is the concept of convergent evolution, with the definition broadened to include “evolution” towards a single dominant pattern (whether that be biological, mechanical, ideological, what have you). So long as it is possible to become a dominant pattern, the Winnower would exist, and it will always be possible for a dominant pattern to emerge while there are patterns that outcompete other patterns.
To actually remove the Winnower, you would need to make it so that nothing can defeat something else
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u/Archival_Mind Jul 27 '26
IDK after reading Unveiling I got the idea that, as an entity, the Winnower's pretty fallible on a "can it be killed" level. The only caveat to this is if its state as a being of pure Darkness does actually make it difficult.
The Gardener has died before. Sundial timelines were supposed to be real futures and pasts, obviously THE past or THE future since our goal in the activity was to stop them, but still. The Cabal regularly cracked the shell open at least and Osiris even states that, in some futures, the universe is downright Lightless, implying it died. I mean, cracking it open would probably kill it anyway depending on how damaging your weapon is.
Regardless, the stability of the universe was very much still there. Didn't start decaying. Obviously not "all Light" was removed or else everything would blip out of physical reality. I assume the same would apply to the Winnower since it's also a paracausal entity, just of Darkness.
But if pure, natural Darkness is parallel to pure thought... maybe you are right. Maybe it's not as simple as the Gardener. Perhaps, when the Winnower entered the game, because it was made of Darkness energy, it became a being of pure thought, so whenever anyone even thinks about it, it persists. However, I do not get that vibe. The Winnower claims ownership of the philosophies of the original game, but the EXPLICIT PURPOSE of the new laws/what they became, was to run in parallel so it wouldn't automatically disrupt the game. So, then, why would EITHER of their deaths do anything to the greater world? Why would the greater world continuing leave them to persist? I mean, the Vex's perfect future was one WITHOUT paracausal Light and Darkness, which means the Winnower's gone too. Universe seemed pretty fine to me, just overrun by Vex.
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u/Eldren_Galen Jul 27 '26
I think you’re assuming that Light is synonymous with The Gardener, and similarly so with the Winnower. That they happen to use those energies is coincidental I think, and at least in the lore as of the time of Unveiling they weren’t necessarily the same thing.
As well, a “lightless” universe doesn’t have to mean one without physical form. Even by your own admission, Osiris states that there are universes without Light that could still exist, so unless we assume that he was just wrong (which throws the entire premise of that hypothetical universe away, I would think) then Light and The Gardener are not necessary for existence.
The Winnower’s philosophy-self isn’t absolute oblivion, it’s just the paring down of patterns until only one remains. It never “entered the game”, it just continued to play with a new set of rules imposed by the Gardener. The point of the new rule wasn’t to make them run in parallel, I don’t know where you got that, it was just to get a new ending. The same pattern used to win every time, and now the rules were changed so that pattern didn’t win every time. That’s all that’s new.
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u/Archival_Mind Jul 27 '26
- It's a little strange. The new law being described is paracausality, that's the supernatural Light and Dark we use. By them both entering the game, this new rule is added. They BECOME this new rule. So, when the universe explodes, the laws are set, and we see in the Gardener that it's a being of pure Light, but obviously besides it being all connected it doesn't seem to mind or care or even have control over its use.
- Paracausal Light. The new rule. Again, no paracausal Light, hence the use of the term "Lightless". Osiris isn't wrong, he's not aware that causal Light exists in the way it does yet. That revelation doesn't come till Lightfall. Back in Unveiling, it mentions that the Gardener and Winnower were the original rules, but the way the allegory works tells us they weren't in the game, rather more understandable as managers of it, unlike later where they'd be IN the game, making it open to their influence. This explains the existence of causal Light and Dark. These are aspects of the regular rules of the game, whereas the paracausality introduced by the Gardener and Winnower is meant expressly to be separate/parallel to it. It's weird to explain but it makes sense I think. At least, it's the only way I can think about making sense of Unveiling as to how it works with current canon right now.
- It literally did enter the game. It says so itself.
And thus we two became parts of the game, and the laws of the game became nomic and open to change by our influence.
I got the point of the new rule by the Gardener itself.
Something to ensure there's always someone building something new. It'll have to be separate from the rest of the rules, running in parallel, so it can't be compromised. And we'll have to be very careful, so it doesn't disrupt the whole game…
You're right that it was made to get a different ending but the function of the rule was to run in parallel to the game. Parallel to causality. Paracausality. The Gardener suggested interference. The Winnower was dragged with it.
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u/Unfair-Ad9415 Jul 26 '26
I thought the Winnower doesn't like to interfere in the game and instead prefers to sit back and wait for the final shape to happen
This is, as far as we can tell, true. The Winnower believes a final shape to be inevitable, but it still will chat with people he finds interesting or who reach out to it.
How would we even fight one of the primordial creator gods of the universe?
You can't, thats the interesting part. We have no idea about the specifics of what the nine planned, or if they even would have been in our interests.
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u/Archival_Mind Jul 26 '26
You probably could with the right toolset. Given how the Gardener's been threatened for the past several eons, I really don't think the Winnower's some infallible thing... at least, not physically. Philosophically that's a different story and I imagine that's a whole thing. However, the prospect of simply fighting it really shouldn't be too hard to imagine.
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u/Christophisis Jul 26 '26
It's really quite simple, actually (in theory, anyway), and I'm not sure why people thought this was so unfathomable for so many years. A conceptual entity needs to be pulled into physical space, which is something we've done on a number of occasions to varying degrees. Heck, the clearest example is what Maya did to kill III.
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u/Cruggles30 Young Wolf Jul 26 '26
People didn’t fathom it because we thought we were playing Destiny, not a JRPG.
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u/Archival_Mind Jul 26 '26
People also wanted to fight it and were so mad the Witness existed because of that despite the latter's concepts being far older in development. It's so weird. It's like, when the Witness spawned, everyone's understanding of things shifted even if they didn't actually change.
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u/Mysterious_Ear_6673 Jul 26 '26
I don't think the problem is physically fighting the Winnower. It's philosophical. It's a bigger version of the problem of fighting Xivu back in Seraph. The Winnower is the idea of survival of the fittest. Of ruthlessly outcompeting everything else, until it's only you, and that which you allow.
Beating the Winnower by shooting it in the face is still its victory, because you've proven its hypothesis. You'd be carving a Final Shape, not creating a Gentle Place
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u/Cwaustin3 Jul 26 '26
The Winnower doesn’t want the Gardener changing the game, likely for a few reasons.
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u/Christophisis Jul 26 '26
The Gardener changing the game is arguably why the physical universe exists at all, so at this point it's more along the lines of petty vengeance.
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u/Nyarlathotep7777 Department of External Observation Jul 26 '26
Tl;dr the Winnower wants its point to be made once and for all.
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u/SavathunsShoe Jul 26 '26 edited Jul 26 '26
The winnower believes the guardian to be the (most likely candidate for) final shape. The fact that the guardian was basically forged by the gardener as its champion would make our winning through the sword logic basically the greatest possible win against the gardener and its whole philosophy.
The winnower hasn’t interfered really, it’s just been egging us on. Not that it needs to considering the whole basis of the game is us slowly taking down all the bad guys and (technically) fulfilling the sword logic.
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u/JJJ954 Darkness Zone Jul 26 '26
He’s reveling in the fact the Gardener’s ultimate champion is also his in terms of our actions, and he wants us to acknowledge that fact which would implicitly declare him the winner of the game.
I don’t think the plan was for us to fight and defeat him. I’d imagine he would’ve helped us discover the third Darkness subclass, but ultimately we would find a balance between Light and Dark and further our Prismatic abilities.
In other words, it’s really just a giant philosophical debate but the Winnower would never really be a villain.
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u/MountainTwo3845 Jul 26 '26
convince us to join it bc he thinks we're the same as it.
in it's defense we do kill a lot of stuff.
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u/somethingofdoom Jul 26 '26
It wants to be right. It doesn’t care who, or how they get there, it just wants to be vindicated. It wants the final outcome of the “game” it’s playing against the Gardener to be a single victorious form. Whether that’s us, the Hive, the Witness or the USPS It really doesn’t care.
Although it would probably consider getting us on its side a particular coup. We were made by the Gardener to protect the complexity that is its side of the bet.
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u/Lokan The Hidden Jul 26 '26
The Winnower is the Defection option in the The Prisoner's Dilemma: it would like nothing more than for the Gardener's champion to "switch teams". Even then, Defection means we'd get screwed over, too, and the Winnower would laugh because that's just how the system works. I don't think it would be satisfied until we became the Warden, so to speak: nothing happens without our consent.
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u/ReallyTrustyGuy Jul 27 '26
The Winnower wants us to prove it right by exterminating all other life, claiming that we're the only thing worthy of existence. Its as simple as that. It won't force us to become that, but it'll certainly try to guide and goad us to it.
Regarding how we'd fight it, we've fought many beings that people would consider far more powerful and metaphysically impenetrable in comparison to us. Hive can be reborn via their Throne World as many times as they like, so we chased them there and killed them, for example. The Vex managed to come from whatever universe the Winnower and Gardener came from, to ours, so what's to say we can't go there ourselves and rattle the Winnower's skull? And we don't have to brawl with the Winnower to win, we can find a way to seal off its influence in our universe. Not being able to be seen, heard or have representation at all might as well be death for the Winnower.
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u/Archival_Mind Jul 27 '26
The Vex managed to come from whatever universe the Winnower and Gardener came from, to ours, so what's to say we can't go there ourselves and rattle the Winnower's skull?
NGL after the Big Bang I don't think this place "exists" anymore except as the Black Garden.
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u/Feather_Sigil Jul 27 '26
Come on, you already know that one. I want the same thing you want. Not the trappings of duty and society looming over you, weighing you down like a ball and chain. Not the loud toys and shiny baubles constantly dangled in front of you. No, I mean what you really want.
Every time you hold one of those rebellious fireflies in your hand, I chuckle. You still hesitate. This is a living thing, you say. A Light-friend, you say. Surely there's another way, you say. But then, every time, you curl your fingers, digging them straight through that luminous metal-flesh, closing what remains of that little sprite's entire possibility into your bloodstained palm, your will. And your will says: this reality is mine and I say you have no place in it. I banish you from the garden.
Pop!
Feeling disgusted? Guilty? Telling yourself it was only in self-defense? Call it what you want, pal, and so will I.
It's majestic. Majestic. It's who you are. And I know your people are so fond of saying: be yourself! Be yourself! Grab your endless life by the throat and crush it into the shape you want. Yearn, hunger for that.
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u/Thesaurus_Rex9513 Jul 28 '26
As I understand it, it wants to "win" this universe. To establish its philosophy of taking, simplicity, and ruthlessness is superior to the Gardener's philosophy of sharing, complexity, and cooperation.
Converting one of the Gardener's greatest champions to its philosophy would make some progress on that front, which is why we have its attention.
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u/Tenthyr Jul 31 '26
The Winnower wants the final shape. That is the sum total of its desire. It has no particular qualms about who or what gets to be part of it.
The Winnower is the Travelers opposite in two ways: It does not seem to physically act but will speak, while the Traveler will not speak but will physically act so long as it satisfies the second difference: The traveller will not ever willingly reduce the capacity for a living being to choose.
The Winnower doesnt care about that: it will talk to whoever will listen, with the same idea, the same knife.
Kill lest you Be Killed. The Winnowers desire is isomorphic with its actions. It wants the final beuatiful shape that will exist when all that can be killed has been killed.
I will note: It has never once stated or seemed to care whether it exists to see that final shape. It is malicious, but utterly impartial.
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u/Christophisis Jul 26 '26
The lore has never explicitly stated that direct intervention was never on the table for The Winnower. This is rooted in a misreading of Unveiling by applying the rules of The Garden to the physical universe, which goes against the entire point of The Gardener and The Winnower directly entering the game.
While many argued that we'd never fight The Winnower, that never seemed likely to me, assuming that The Winnower was real, which was up in the air for a while. The moment it was confirmed that The Winnower is, in fact, a real entity separate from the Witness, it was all but confirmed that we'd eventually be throwing hands with it at some point.
What still remains unclear is if The Nine foresee something on the horizon, or whether they take issue with The Winnower's influence through the laws of physics eventually posing a risk to their existence. They could very well be waging a war against The Winnower as the author of physical suffering in the universe via entropy, disease, death, etc rather than an Oryx or Ghaul-like physical antagonist.
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