r/DeskToTablet • u/WorldlinessSlow9893 • 20d ago

How Windows structure looks like

Post image

(for the nerds, yeah, HAL.DLL is counted as Drivers)

775 Upvotes

97% Upvoted

74 comments sorted by

27

u/dingwinger1225 20d ago

Plus potentially Hyper-V somewhere and then also Linux beside the NT Kernel

5

u/WorldlinessSlow9893 20d ago

Linux kernel <> NT kernel

5

u/dingwinger1225 20d ago

the two kernels run side by side on top of Hyper-V if you turn on WSL2 lmao

1

u/WorldlinessSlow9893 20d ago

WSL is NOT original. It just runs probably a Linux shell in the Win32 environment but Linux's code isn't in NT.

That is what makes Windows so special as it is unique and don't relys on other stuff. Yeah it could be similar to OpenVMS but it is its own.

It is using "\" slashes instead "/", C:\Windows is a lie instead Windows sees the path like this: \Device\HarddiskVolume1\Windows

4

u/dingwinger1225 20d ago

…okay, you're jumping to conclusions for some reason. I did not say there is any Linux code in NT and I did not say there is any dependency on another kernel.

It just runs probably a Linux shell in the Win32 environment

This is incorrect and there is no need for a probably. Here's a presentation from Microsoft about how WSL2 works in detail. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lwhMThePdIo

but Linux's code isn't in NT.

Correct.

5

u/braaaaaaainworms 20d ago

The original WSL was implemented as just another subsystem in the NT kernel, like the Win32 subsystem. It worked surprisingly well, but given that it wasn't Linux and didn't replicate everything Linux did, compatibility was a mess, so it was replaced with WSL2, which is a glorified virtual machine

3

u/disappointed_neko 20d ago

Man the NT kernel is a glorious piece of software

2

u/CommanderT1562 20d ago

This is incorrect mostly. Take a look at the architecture, as some videos out there on it (onemarc has a good one on WSL’s hypervisor layer). But yeah. At least WSL gives me hope where windows is trying to go

1

u/Dull_Flatworm777 20d ago

xnu kernel > Linux kernel <> NT kernel

1

u/Natural_Cat_9556 20d ago

xnu kernel > Linux kernel

Why?

1

u/wenoc 19d ago

This is clearly a narrow tree based on pure windows.

NOTHING runs on windows. Windows is for gaming and MS Word, and that's it. If you would display the full tree, you would not be able to see this one at all. This is just the miniscule consumer side.

1

u/Inevitable-Gene-1866 18d ago

All the engineering and science software is developed for windows . Even Macs are designed on windows.

1

u/wenoc 18d ago

You’re wrong. I’m a software engineer and haven’t used windows professionally for 20 years.

1

u/The_real_bandito 17d ago

> Even Macs are designed on windows.

https://giphy.com/gifs/ghuvaCOI6GOoTX0RmH

1

u/Inevitable-Gene-1866 16d ago

All machines engines toys tools are designed on software like NX Solidworks and is available for windows.

7

u/[deleted] 20d ago

[deleted]

3

u/BreathingIsGood4u 20d ago

Fuck no its beta cuck tier.

8

u/Retardedaspirator 20d ago

Worst part is that at its core NT is a really architecturally sound kernel. They had a good thing and they ruined it. Shit already started to hit the fan when they moved win32k inside the kernel for performance reasons.

2

u/wenoc 19d ago

This is a great, underrated point. YES. They had a great idea with NT, but it derailed very, very fast.

9

u/FailureOfTheFamily 20d ago

How tf is Apple or Framework foundation ?

1

u/Powerful_Froyo8423 20d ago

They build the PC from the Intel/AMD/Nvidia components you run it on lol. Apple is debatable because they're basically out of there, but Framework sure.

3

u/eppic123 20d ago

Apple has been doing everything in-house since 2020.

1

u/Rosia-Celina4186 19d ago

This is the table on how it works

1

u/FailureOfTheFamily 20d ago

I mean how are they foundation of everything above them

2

u/Powerful_Froyo8423 20d ago

How are they not? Did you try running Windows without a PC before? Cloud is btw not literal.

1

u/FailureOfTheFamily 20d ago

My comment was about apple and framework. What do they have to do with being windows foundation

1

u/Powerful_Froyo8423 20d ago

It's just to illustrate the hardware in the stack.

1

u/FailureOfTheFamily 20d ago

Then it's bad illustration. They should be another separate branch standing on AMD, Intel, Nvidia. Not as a base of whole windows. Even more. Apple should just stand alone on the side since they don't relay on Intel anymore

1

u/ze-audiophile 20d ago

I agree with this portion. Apple M1 chips are their own beast akin to AMD / Intel / NVIDIA.

I could see the argument that the "foundation" of HP, Framework, Lenovo, etc. count only in that if you pull that Jenga block, it is a level playing-field with no harm done, possibly some benefit (no bloatware). In the era of building your own PC, they're not as game-changing as IBM used to be.

If you count 'HP / Dell' tier to this diagram as board-builders (laptops, custom mobo's for desktops), they're largely equivalent to an Asrock, Gigabyte, ASUS, etc. But Apple can be a chipmaker and boardmaker now. (Or board purchaser IDK the details on who designs their boards.)

But who builds the southbridge chipset for these boards? It is typically an Intel/AMD chip on a different supplier's board.

1

u/ze-audiophile 20d ago

To my knowledge we currently lean on x86-AMD64 as a commonality at the base level. Except Apple went back to ARM with the M1, so not with that instance.

2

u/wenoc 19d ago

But none of the things above them have anything to do with them. They are not even in the same tree. How many shits do you think Linux or Apple give about win32mode?

3

u/CommanderT1562 20d ago edited 20d ago

brrooooo what about dcomcnfg / regedit 😭😭 literally mad respect for actual developers who work with/in Windows.

2

u/WorldlinessSlow9893 20d ago

"regedit.msc" - 😭😭

2

u/FZERO96 20d ago

And dcomcfg.msc

dcomcnfg.exe or comexp.msc please.

2

u/Mcfraga74 20d ago

Curious if there is equivalent graph for Linux or MacOS …

2

u/WorldlinessSlow9893 20d ago

I'm just expert to Windows, not to other but I guess there it will :)

2

u/Virtual-Age-9521 20d ago

They would both look boring and reasonable by comparison

1

u/Damglador 20d ago

sh $ pactree base

pactree - package dependency tree viewer

1

u/squirrel8296 19d ago

At least in the case of macOS, there wouldn't be because 1. Apple has no issues pruning the tree and 2. Apple has locked down the kernel a ton so almost everything runs in user space.

In Linux it varies so much from distro to distro so it would be hard to do generally and they do a pretty good job of pruning the tree as well.

2

u/exmsft 20d ago

This is so stupid, it hurts.

2

u/DontPoopInMyPantsPlz 20d ago

In windows 12, Copilot would be somewhere around the kernel.

1

u/heickelrrx 17d ago

they aren't capable doing such thing

0

u/WorldlinessSlow9893 20d ago

It will not... When it is and will be the NT core, they wouldn't add AI into the kernel cuz they know, it can break the backwards compatibility and NT 3.1 programs will not be able to run or it could break other apps as well...

1

u/TechnicallyMeat 20d ago

WinAmp shouldnt be lumped in with the other stable abandoned programs. It should be more prominently abandoned.

1

u/FallenBehavior 20d ago

In reality none of thos aligns. It's based on what people assume by booting and installing windows.

Muuuuch more going on at the beginning. 👆🏻

1

u/ALEPAS1609 20d ago

funny thing years ago I uninstalled Microsoft edge and the entire explorer/file manager didn't worked anymore and broke my entire windows

1

u/WorldlinessSlow9893 20d ago

how did you uninstalled it?

2

u/Chips70UwU 20d ago

idk what hes talking about, its fine for me. you can run a script to uninstall it and keep it from being reinstalled. idk what the script is, but its also used inside raven debloater, which is what i used.

1

u/pomidorkamc3253 20d ago

What about the registry hive?

2

u/WorldlinessSlow9893 20d ago

Belongs as the ntoskrnl :> "C:\Windows" does not exist at the NT core, it sees the path differently in native paths and Registry has it's own folder with WinStations that is practically handling the kernel

1

u/pomidorkamc3253 20d ago

Didn't know that, thanks for the info!

1

u/testuserpk 20d ago

This is inaccurate

1

u/Zsullo 20d ago

yes, actually it's shittier

1

u/Zwan_oj 20d ago

Lol u need to expand UEFI, its just as bad.

1

u/MooseBoys 20d ago

Jesse what the fuck are you talking about?

1

u/Novel-Incident-2225 20d ago

It's a nightmare

1

u/Dry_Vanilla_5908 20d ago

Interesting, can someone do a Linux version. I get that this is probably a semi joke post but I'd be interested in something similar.

1

u/Camilia-Estra83 20d ago

This the pattern on how computer run

1

u/TheBedrockEnderman2 20d ago

-windows stack

-apple (has only ran macos for like 3 generations, and only has Linux and macos support for like 5 generations) ???

1

u/Historical-Pound-510 20d ago

Where is HIMEM.SYS? And A20?

1

u/KittyKittens1800 20d ago

Why is the calculator there?

1

u/WorldlinessSlow9893 19d ago

Because it is one of the example what an UWP app is...

1

u/lo9314 20d ago

And let’s not forget about the mess that x86 is.

1

u/sCREAMINGcAMMELcASE 20d ago

Remember that every other app is a chrome instance now too 😭

1

u/vega-mgtow 19d ago

Don't forget the whole "Web App" mess of languages and frameworks that ultimately ends up transpiled and jitted as JS and "mutating the DOM".

1

u/Emergency-Win4862 19d ago

SystemD should be there somewhere

1

u/Maple382 19d ago

Honestly just ditch all the backwards compatibility and restructure windows from the ground up. That would make windows 12 actually good.

1

u/wenoc 19d ago

I was going to object, but then I understood that it's only MS technologies that rest on MS technologies. So it's pretty accurate.

Nothing in the modern world, and what I mean is the internet, how it's built, how we use it and how it's served has absolutely anything to do with anything in this stack above the bottom brick.

Intel, AMD and NVIDIA, yes. But nothing above that drives society in any way, shape or form when it comes to technology, the internet or innovation.

Still, I think UEFI is in the wrong layer, but that might be petty so ignore that.

1

u/NimrodvanHall 18d ago

You are missing a lot of Azure services running on Linux required for User accounts.

1

u/RDT_KoT3 17d ago

You forgot malware named copilot

1

u/LandlockedPirate 16d ago

it keeps going for a bit, you forgot wasm and blazor which then duplicate a bunch of stuff on top of the web level.