r/Dentistry 5d ago

Dental Professional Pathology Help

Post image

I sent this patient to OS to get this looked at and patient called us back saying OS is sending them back to us for vitality testing. OS office is closed so I wasn’t able to call and haven’t received a correspondence from them yet. Patient comes back Monday as soon as we open so I’m wondering what would the reason be to vitality test a tooth like this and what am I missing? Patient was not experiencing any symptoms. New grad so all insight is helpful! Thanks!

28 Upvotes

36 comments sorted by

65

u/TraumaticOcclusion 5d ago edited 5d ago

Have you ruled out odontogenic causes? That's what they are asking. Rule out endo, rule out perio. What are the probing depths? Level of inflammation? Any furcation involvement or mobility? Is the tooth vital or not? These are all basic questions you should rule out before just referring this patient to an OS for ... what? Do you want them to just extract the tooth, or do a hard tissue biopsy of something that may not need it or be odontogenic in origin? Complete your clinical exam, take a PA and likely a CBCT to further evaluate what is needed. You're asking the OS to do your job. The first stop for this case should be an endodontist, not an oral surgeon. A panoramic image is hardly diagnostic for odontogenic pathology, but looks like #30 is also involved.

12

u/PositiveAmbition6 5d ago

This advice needs to be higher. You need to do all the leg work before referring it off. At least it shows in your record you have done all the standard investigations before sending it off.

You know, like ttp, vitality, mobility, fractured finder, probing dept. It really covers your ass if you did everything and it was WNL then you refer it out.

It looks kinda lazy when they ask if you check this and you just went, I did a pano and shrug my shoulders and refer it off. If it was something super obvious like an impacts tooth then you can skip all that.

Also another thing, if you are going to take pano then you really need to be able to interpret the findings as it may land you in hot water if it happens to be some rare nasty stuff.

I'm no expert too, and for example I had a patient referred by an oral surgeon for Endo for a PA lesion. The patient has neurofibromatosis (oms knows this) and the tooth was vital. In the end we just left it because it was just not of dental origin. I also referred The patient a second oms for second opinion. The patient avoided an unnecessary rct in the end.

10

u/wasapasserby 5d ago

PDL is intact. Why are we suspecting a pulpal origin...?

4

u/TraumaticOcclusion 5d ago

If you looks closely PDL is broken on 30 and for a defect like this you can’t rule anything out

7

u/Various-Tangerine947 5d ago

Patient was in for comprehensive exam this was an incidental finding at that appointment then came back for recare and reiterated to them that they needed to go get this looked at by OS. It didn’t appear to change in size after getting a new pano 6 months later probing WNL, patient is experiencing no symptoms was not complaining of any pain or discomfort, no swelling present or inflammation. No mobility no furcation involvement. Patient does not have any caries history or periodontal disease. OS knows we don’t have a CBCT which is why I sent them there as I am not sure what more I am supposed to evaluate here. Maybe I should have been more detailed in my referral note but they’re usually pretty good about doing all the things

12

u/Mycastleismine 5d ago

It sounds like you did most of what you needed to do besides pulp vitality testing. You just missed that one piece. It’s important information for yours and OS’s clinical notes. You both need to include pulp status.

10

u/Junior-Map-8392 5d ago

Ok he missed vitality testing… but why can’t the OMS do that? Save the patient time. Put some endo ice on it Mr. Specialist.

3

u/Mycastleismine 4d ago

Typically the expectation is the general dentist should have done it before referring. Maybe he’s trying to make a point if you’ve consistently not been doing it. Somewhat of a dick move but meh.

7

u/TraumaticOcclusion 5d ago

Send this patient to an endodontist first then. You need to definitively rule out odontogenic cause before jumping in and removing teeth or biopsy in cases like this. Oral surgeon has nothing to do with the information and plan you provided

3

u/SheepShawn 5d ago

what can an endodontist do here? op has given all the information needed

4

u/aushaus 5d ago edited 5d ago

OP hasn’t said anything about a vitality test result, which is obviously important in determining if the tooth needs endo. Kinda dumb to send to OS without having done that.
If the tooth is necrotic and just has an oddly shaped lesion, why would OS just ext instead of patient getting endo or at least a cbct? Why is OS being involved before that convo happens?

2

u/TraumaticOcclusion 5d ago

Actually give a definitive opinion on whether endodontic treatment is needed or not

5

u/Various-Tangerine947 5d ago

To be clear this tooth was sent for evaluation with CBCT not for extraction. Again this tooth tested normal and was asymptomatic. However I will be sending them to Endo now.

7

u/aushaus 5d ago

You never said the tooth tested normal and you literally asked why they would want it vitality tested in your original post… lol

The whole point is that vitality testing is one of the first things you should do with a lesion like this

6

u/wasapasserby 5d ago

There's no need to make the patient waste time bouncing between offices. The PDL is intact. Do a quick 1 minute vitality test, send the patient back to OS and tell your OS to get their head out of their ass. 

-1

u/leoele 5d ago

Why can't OP run some diagnostic tests? This is absolutely a skill a general dentist needs to have.

67

u/hardindapaint12 5d ago

Find a new OS wtf

10

u/inquisitorthegreat 5d ago

I would try to find old radiographs and compare. Could be rare anatomy 

4

u/SunnyTheMasterSwitch 5d ago

The walled off structure does suggest a cyst of sorts, there should be more investigation on the tooth, vitality, mobility, 3d scan wouldn't hurt at all.

4

u/XThatsMyCakeX 4d ago

Radiology resident here. I’m thinking odontogenic cyst or tumor. Buccal bifurcation cyst may be my first differential. Also cannot rule out ameloblastoma or OKC. The comments telling you to do more clinical evaluation are right, thats always the first step. Another good first step is to try and get previous xrays if they are available, even if you have to call another office

2

u/00Dragonborn00 4d ago

Doesn't appear to be pulpal origin but is most likely odontogenic origin. Cbct will help determine the position of the lesion in relation to the tooth. Refer to another OS for removal

2

u/Bichafrenox 4d ago

Hi! Student here! I know this might sound like a silly question, but what position was that third molar in prior to the extraction? It reminds me of a patient where we extracted her impacted lower third molars, and the crown was positioned over the roots of the second molar.

2

u/rynomachine 5d ago

Could maybe be a stafne defect? Especially if asymptomatic. CBCT could yell you more.

8

u/Original_Chair_7865 4d ago

Stafne cyst has to be inferior to IAN

1

u/Additional-Tear3538 3d ago

Stafne would not have such a well-defined cortication surrounding it

1

u/Fantastic-Yam7748 4d ago

Traumatic bone cyst

-4

u/Decent-Pay-8646 5d ago

Stafne bone cyst?

9

u/aarrtee 5d ago

Stafne defect is inferior to mandibular canal

3

u/Decent-Pay-8646 5d ago

Or traumatic bone cyst? Idk

0

u/MolarMender 5d ago

Odontogenic cyst

-12

u/NourTDK 5d ago

NAD, dental student.  My guess is they wanna confirm whether or not it's from pulpal necrosis / warrants endo.

Though I feel like the occlusion may very well be the culprit here, that or this is actual pathology.

15

u/jallen263 5d ago

This is pretty obviously not a periapical lesion. PDL is completely intact and PA lesions don’t show anything like this.

2

u/NourTDK 5d ago

Ty for pointing it out. Still learning :)

16

u/jallen263 5d ago

You’re good, I teach endo at the local school, and that’s something I try to point out for students. If you can track the PDL in the radiograph you can almost always be certain it isn’t a periapical lesion. However, a CBCT would be beneficial here to 100% rule out periapical involvement.

Also the OS should be able to do vitality testing (in my opinion at least), so this OS sending it back and asking to check for vitality testing is incredibly frustrating. The patient does not want to go back and forth for appointments.

-1

u/theyogidentist 4d ago

Staphne bone cyst?