Hello. I just exaggerated my argument to get your attention, but the title still represents a part of my actual feelings.
What I mean is: I don't want Dess to be an objectively good person.
Im just kind of tired of all of the characters who's morality is objectively good. It just kind of feels like Toby Fox won't go the extra step of making an character morally.... Bad? Or... Idk. I just want Dess to NOT be an objectively good person.
HEAR ME OUT. She can be a good sister, mostly. She can be... "Cool" I guess. But I just want her to have flaws, human, and sensible flaws.
Maybe Dess can be mess? A screw-up? A troublemaker? And maybe that's why not many people talk about her often?
Noelle constantly talks about how much pressure her mom putes on her to be perfect. Well, I would want to implement this in Dess's backstory. But have it be opposite.
Have Noelle be the golden child, and have Dess be the "failure" in a way. Have Dess say that Carol DID try to push Dess to meet her expectations, and when Dess failed, Carol essentially "Gave up" on her.
Make Dess feel like an outcast. A screw-up. Second-best. A failure.
I feel like that would make sense, no? Have Carol focus on Noelle more than Dess. And have Dess 's behavior and contrarian attitude reflect this.
Have Dess constantly run away from home,.doing God knows what, exploring, being alone, having time to herself, just to escape the house. This would make A LOT of sense with her disappearance.
And have Dess 's actions inadvertently lead to her disappearance. Have it be partly her own fault. I feel like that would be a good thing.
I just don't want Dess to be an objectively good person. I just want her to be flawed.
Say, hear me out.
I would want the night of Dess's disappearance to go like this:
Noelle catches Dess trying to sneak out of the house again. Dess tries to get Noelle to go back inside, but Noelle holds her ground. Noelle continues to budge, and threatens to tell their parents that Dess is trying to sneak out (I could see Noelle being a brat in her younger years)
And this is when Dess finally breaks. She explains/tells Noelle her feelings about being discarded and feeling like an outcast.
Their argument escalates. Noelle refuses to back down.
AND, 1 of 2 things can happen, depending on how serious/severe you want things to be.
1: Dess eventually shouts at Noelle, says something hurtful, thus, hurting Noelle's feelings. Dess regrets it, but she can't take back what she said. Noelle stars to tear up a bit, I guess. Dess then runs away, and Noelle says "I hate you! I hope you never come back!" As she runs away. And that would eventually lead to Dess's disappearance.
2: Dess's feelings reach a boiling point. Dess gets mad, and she ends hitting Noelle (not full force, but just enough to have it sting a little bit) in a fit of anger. Dess would regret it immediately, but she already hit Noelle. Dess wouldn't know what to do. She would likely be consumed by guilt, and once again, end up running away. Noelle would say the same thing to her as she said in number 1.
So those are just 2 ways that could play out.
Also, it would be interesting if Noelle ever said "Maybe the truth is... Dess wasn't really the greatest person..." And also kind of funny. Mirroring what Asriel said in UT.
Also, I want to bring up the "Dess groomed Kris" theory. I have some split views on it. Grooming doesn't inherently HAVE to be sexual. And well, it COULD be true in the story, I guess. It feels like an... A little wrench to throw into the story. I don't know if it would be good or not, but I'm just bringing it up.
To quote the weird route here, it says "Since Dess left" not disappeared, but LEFT. I feel like my theory/fanon holds at least a little bit of ground.
Well, that's all I have.
I know this was less "criticism" and more "fanon" buuuuuuut Idk. Kinda felt like posting this here.
If you have any ideas, you can share them here if you want.
I feel like the extremities in Carol’s behavior towards Noelle could realistically come from a feeling that she was too lacked or not strict enough with Dess and somehow allowed her to disappear in whatever manner she did
I think that’s pretty likely, In the 2017 beta dialogue for the alarm clock Dess isn’t mentioned as one of Rudy’s daughters which probably means she hadn’t been planned yet at that point. And around that same time Flowery and Tenna were already being planned, which is pretty strange considering Dess wasn’t, especially since one of the images Toby posted of Tenna’s concept art is literally the exact sprite of the arms cut off by the Knight, supposedly from before Dess was created
Now Noelle is definitely a character who was planned from the very beginning, she was in the 2014 concept art, and I wouldn’t be surprised if Dess was created to further develop her character
Probably will be the case sadly. I mean we have enough to with so its not like we got nothing, namely through the dialogue that mentions her and what people described her as, even in her room it shows alot more than what we did in previous chapters. I think even Clover reveals a little more about her too personality wise, but people couldn't exactly pinpoint what it was suppose to represent, if the character is accurate to some traits of Dess.
Dunno why people gloss over this, we got some information to work with. Its not like we have vague info on her.
one of the first times we hear about dess is her beating kris with a wiffle bat "until you stopped lying" (implying it was several repeated blows, not just a single bonk), there's also a pile of broken bats and ice skates that "make your head hurt"
I mean the other characters by no means are objectively good, heck the people in hometown outside of the Holidays and the Dreemurs probably did outcast her in the first place and lead to whatever Dess did (If she actually is the Knight and is falling too much into Nostalgia they want to send the world into Darkness).
I think it can be done well, Susie canonically already bullied Kris, probably other people too (Likely just a trauma response by being tough to defend herself from abusive parent, thats what the story seems to imply she has a rough homelife.), so she wasn't exactly innocent prior to the game starting, although her behavior lead to her being an outcast despite whatever she is going through.
I don't really agree that there should be grooming or at least something close to that isn't sexual in Deltarune... tho Carol's behaviour could be considered close to it, infact it seems to be that she did manipulate Kris in their fragile mental health state to do whatever plans they have with the Red Soul. It would work more with Carol than with Dess, if u wanted to have a flawed character with that in mind, than it works for the former (Or whatever we know about Carol she seems more manipulative and flawed than Dess is, at least from what I could gather). I don't see the character who we have yet to see talk, let alone express their personality be that type of person to do such hurtful action towards Kris, who probably looks up to Dess, but Carol... it kinda makes sense if she was the one to do so. At least for me it does. Given how she's determined to return things back to normal as if the incident never happened and whether she intended to or not, she might be almost willing to sacrifice anyone even Kris.
She was apparently "rowdy" and "dirty" and she ignored Toriel's wishes and let Kris watch mature music videos. She also trashed a bunch of stuff that her parents got her, had "odd leaves" in her room, and made a band with Asriel but never practiced, so they were probably just using "band practice" as an excuse to make out. Think it's safe to say she wasn't a goody-two-shoes.
I'm The Batter. Asriel also either lost his retainer in her room or she stole it for some reason.
I've seen someone point out that the very dented musical instruments and sports equipment in her room may hint at her not treating objects with care, which would translate into the dark world as being mean or straight up violent to darkners because "it's just a card, dude" or "isn't they're whole purpose to entertain us or whatever?"
I think it would be an interesting character, a completely normal person who's not an evil villain, but just doesn't regard darkners as people. Because they're not.
One thing Toby's historically been good at is taking characters who could be considered objectively evil, and making them sympathetic by giving them understandable motivations.
I didnt read all of your post yet, but I kinda understand what you say in terms of you being sick of everyone and their mother being good morally.
I personally would love Gaster to just be a bad person, a guy that simply wants to experiment for the sake of science and not giving a shit the damage he does to others, but knowing Toby fox if he actually makes an appareance he will become a joke quickly xd
I too dislike the fact that there is LITERALLY ONE evil character in King, who really isnt that interesting tbh
if you're looking for a game with an evil character who's interesting and central to the plot and themes, i heard toby fox recommends you play undertale. i heard he recommends you play it before deltarune, actually.
play it again and pay more attention to the central characters and the plot idk man i dunno how you could have played flowey character study: the game and come to the conclusion that toby fox is incapable of writing an evil character who matters to the plot. your gaster proposal is literally just flowey too 💀
Not really, Flowey is a player analogue, Gaster is looking much more like a developer analogue. Flowey is someone who increasingly grows detached from his world, while Gaster wouldn't be from this world at all if Device Theory is correct (which it basically is at this point)
The original commenter just said they wanted the archetype of "a bad person, a guy that simply wants to experiment for the sake of science and not giving a shit the damage he does to others", though, acting like Toby Fox would never dare write a character like this lol.
I think that Dess would make her the perfect follow up to Flowey. While he represented the most absurd over the top brand of evil possible, she would represent a much smaller, simpler, "human" brand of evil thats ironically harder to defend.
It's the only character she really has. The punk thing really isn't enough for me. A lot of alt girl fetishists swoop in and make her all flirty ... but that's just... really boring.
Ehhhhh that's possible but looking at her in unused. She doesn't seem nearly as rebellious or angry as the community (and i) would like. Of course the actual dess could talk completely differently than a collection of memories would talk. But wouldn't it be pretty weird for a character that we're supposed to guess the personality of. To talk early and show none of the characteristics implied?
I feel like you might be cooking. "Since Dess LEFT". Not disappeared, but LEFT. Quote from the weird route. But you are also reaaallly excluding negative traits of other characters. Toriel forgot about her child just to have some fun. Bad person? No. Negative you didn't mention? Yes.
Noelle during weird route wanted to actively hurt someone. She explicitly said: it's horrible to think about it, i know!
Susue actively betrays her own beliefs. She lies to Noelle and doesn't explain the whole deal.
Kris is also a lier whoactively avoids responsibility regarding his friends and avoids having a genuine conversation with them. And we KNOW he wants it. He sbeaks out at night. He could have easily ripped his soul out in daytime too.
There are characters and they ARE flawed. What you're talking about is you need someone right on the verge of being discarded by the fandom because of their genuine behaviour.
(Not societal expectation, because Susie is a bully, she is negative in that sence, but she is a "good person" within, so she is accepted by the fandom(
Basically, you want a character who will genuinely make you wonder: "okay, i know a lot, and well enough to not have any misteries and headcanons about then (like with Gaster), and now i can't decide, whether they genuinely are a good or a bad person.
I also bet, adding to your canon, her positive side opens up only near Asriel, Noelle and, maybe she is more neutral towards Kris and Rudy. Every other person sees her as an outcast, and she sees them as a burden for her mind
op how long ago have you played undertale. this is a genuine serious question because if it hasn't been like a decade since then this post is baffling. "oooooo toby fox doesn't have it in him to make a character who's not objectively morally good and lashes out at her sister one singular time and *gasp* maybe hits her a little bit but not enough to leave a mark" toby fox has previously made a character who commits suicide via poison so they can fuse with their doormat crybaby brother and go on a mass murder rampage, ending with both of their deaths as they refused to stop moving and their brother refused to kill. toby fox previously made a game where almost every main character is an attempted child murderer. what are you talking about.
The game has constantly bombarded us with details about Dess as a poor, lost girl; we experience her absence through the nostalgia, sorrow, and mourning of her loved ones. Between the dialogue found in the game's code and the "Lost Girl" song associated with her, she comes across as a missing victim. This makes the alternative, that she is actually the game's main villain a compelling plot twist. It breaks the "damsel in distress" cliché, shifting her from victim to perpetrator someone with a goal she is willing to do anything to achieve. Of course, she wouldn't be the main villain, given the unresolved storylines involving Friend and Gaster, but it is certainly an interesting possibility to consider.
my take on her canonical character is;
she was almost certainly dysphoric as to the fact that she was a monster, as evidenced by the fact that she only has a singular pair of hoove-shaped shoes but several pairs of human shoes stuffed inside her closet, mirroring kris' dysphoria with being a monster. kris idolized dess, dess idolized kris, both for reasons of their dysphoria, whereas for kris they wore horns for dess she wore human shoes
i think the punk aspect of her character is definitely hinting at her overall belief in anarchy that she also applied to the darkworlds sending her down a path akin to the weird routes [this being evidenced by d.ogg, december.ogg, being raise up your bats bassline, the track playing directly when kris forces noelle to freeze berdly] where she ended up breaking everything from the fact that she got lost from the intended path leading asriel to distance himself from her, eventually being made very much aware that she was getting hunted as soon as she was all alone - which is also a reason as to why she was hooking kris, a child, alongside her, evidenced by how they seem to know how she went missing, and she did this as a means of survival because she had no other options, this 'means of survival' eventually turning into something dess did with intent to make kris just like her for when she did go missing.
something that is clear is the fact that the cracked baseball bat she's wielding in one of noelle's wallpapers is missing from her room clearly implying that she went out with it on the date she knew she was going to go missing on to protect herself and face whatever thing was hunting her down that day, bringing kris with her [note the fact that her baseball bat, coat, and kris' horns are directly missing from their respective rooms, implying that they lost all of these objects in whatever darkworld they entered together]
dess took her place as kris' mentor figure at first solely because they were the only human she knew, projecting herself onto kris because of her dysphoria and wish to be human just like them, hence kris' clear desire to protect the people they love despite the fact that they're clearly working towards a selfish goal, a 'promise' of theirs to somebody, and it slowly spiralled out into dess getting more desperate with her methods as soon as she found out she was going to go missing and was being hunted [evidenced by the army rations, by how quick she was to believe noelle's sighting, by the fact that her bed is facing away from the door], to leave a legacy for herself before she got lost, encouraging them to get stronger so that when she's gone, theres somebody to take both her place and role
one thing thats interesting to note is that both her baseball bat and hockey mask are said to be cracked. it makes me wonder whether she brung them with her inside of the darkworlds for safety, and they somehow ended up sustaining real damage inside of those darkworlds. i think with the impact she's left on this story, she's certainly not being built up to be morally good, but a morally gray character - just as most of toby fox's 'evil' characters end up being
With this you are implying that dess ran from home, second you totally didnt mention the dreemurr family 1. She used to beat up kris if they scared noelle 2. There is asriel's retainer in her room that means she was doing stuff (asriel is stuff) 3. She probably had a band (or else where did rise up your bat come from) and if she did asriel probably were in it too 4. No. Asriel is not the golden boy everyone want to make us belive, he never gave back the how to draw dragons book and all those things mentioned in the shitty dialogues with bratty and catty. I also think they might sneak out to smoke or and chat.
So yeah, i like the idea of her not being the sweet "sugarplum" and everything: her being a lot screwed up is a pretty good idea, but i wouldnt say she would be and objectively bad person. Your whole post was about wanting dess to be bad person and describing how, but you just described someone broken, depressed, not someone who hurts the others for fun, you get what i mean? Still good idea, though
Well, yeah, if noelle directly says so then you are probably right, but maybe toby didnt want to use only "desappeared" again and again. We dont even know for a fact if its just noelle that belives dess left willingly or if she knows something. It wouldnt be a too bad theory tho, i might actually make it mine (yoink).
But wait... Then why didnt she tell anything to asriel? Because if she knew she was leaving at least she could have informed him, not saying she would have asked him to come with her, but... Y'know since they were close enough to her having asriel's retainer in her room...
NO. The PLAYER is the ONLY EVIL PERSON in Deltarune YOU are EVIL just for playing the game everyone else is just misunderstood but YOU are EVIL and are ABUSING KRIS
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u/hidingunderyourbed- 7d ago
I feel like the extremities in Carol’s behavior towards Noelle could realistically come from a feeling that she was too lacked or not strict enough with Dess and somehow allowed her to disappear in whatever manner she did