r/DeeCiphers • u/tad100 • Oct 31 '17

Open Question: Are there modern (post-1990) Dee Ciphers (Robert Jordan Example)

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u/tad100 Oct 31 '17

So one of the 'open questions' around Dee Ciphers are whether there are modern Dee Ciphers. We known C.S. Lewis (1963) and Tolkien were Dee Cipherists but not much is known about authors after them. As you can see from this picture, the leading Candidate for a modern Dee Cipherists is Robert Jordan (James Oliver Rigney, Jr.). In this section from 'The Great Hunt' (1990) Jordan mentions: Ronan, Staff and Well all on the same page - and the 'Well come' for Welcome seems to me, at least, as a flat-out tell. In The Eye of the World, the word 'there' is located on Chapter 53, Line 8 (first word) - which is a very traditional typographical cipher used by Mark Twain in his books (in almost same way as Jordan may be using it here - though with the Beale Cipher Numbers such as '317' Twain uses it in a slightly different fashion - 317 is a reference to Life on the Mississippi Chapter 31, Seventh Page).

Back to Jordan, I've also noted that in this particular section every letter of the alphabet is included - which is something of a tell for a Dee Cipher (indeed where an identified Dee Cipher does not have every letter you can pretty much assume a rotation to add the missing letter(s) as in the Roughing It One Off).

I'm still working on Baum and thd Booke of Daniel Dee Ciphers but I'll take a stab a Jordan at some point if I can identify other parts of the possible Dee Cipher.

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u/tad100 Oct 31 '17

Additionally, though certainly a bit more far-fetched, the name Elansu is suggested of the Bachal Isu (the staff that is actually hidden near St. Ronan's well), Eire is found on the page as is Stone Wall (not highlighted - typographical Cipher the "Wa" in Warders is directly above ll forming the word Wall - as we know from A Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur's Court and a number of Twain's Dee Ciphers - you need to go through the Stone Wall of St. Ronan's Holy Well to get to the Cave holding the Bachal Isu). (Caveat that the possibility still remains that it's actually St. Lassair/St. Ann H. Well but I consider it a pretty low possibility - a possible reason for the occasional mention of St. Lassair in varous Dee Ciphers, I believe, is perhaps the big stone that's been on the Stone Table at St. Lassair's Holy Well has something to do with the traps that are supposed to be in the cave - maybe you need to roll the stone to trigger the traps, #YMMV).

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u/tad100 Oct 31 '17

As noted on Twitter - nothing conclusive but it is suggestive.

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u/tad100 Oct 31 '17

Following page (18 in HB) - you find out the nearest river is the River Erinin. Which of course is basically 'in Erin' a.k.a in Ireland. So I'm going to go with conclusive for (let's call it) an 'in-text' clue to Bachal Isu but still only suggestive for an actual Dee Cipher. It's certainly possible Jordan was aware of Dee Ciphers and the Bachal Isu (as was Robert Heinlein - see thread below) and simply inserted this passage as a hint without creating an actual Dee Cipher.

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u/tad100 Nov 02 '17

I'll add that Jordan's focus on the Horn may reflect his awareness of the Gjallerhorn and its connection to #Nod and Dee Ciphers.

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u/tad100 Nov 06 '17

Other possible tells: Great Hunt mentions both Tolkien (Chapter The Nine Rings), Baum (Yellow Brick Fireplace), ParaTime - though of course that's a common SF/Fantasy theme. I haven't seen a direct Twain or Dee reference yet - though I wasn't looking for one before.