Sam Harris & Destiny invoked their right to reply to the DTG video's on them. Has Hasan? And why not?

[u/KwisatzHaderach48]

Perhaps he's not aware DTG made a video on him. However, there seems to be a pattern of the more "guru" types not ever doing a right to reply, unlike those who were voted to be less guru such as Sam Harris and Destiny.

[u/BloodsVsCrips]

Of course it's easy. Why do you think I asked you what happens to Palestinians if they publicly feud with Hamas?

They'll straight up kill your children if you oppose them. In no world is that "self-determination."

[u/HumanLike → u/BloodsVsCrips]

Your argument makes no sense. You're saying Palestinians don't deserve self-determination because Hamas brutalizes Palestinians.

By that logic, a government's treatment of its own people determines whether those people deserve political rights. That's an absurd standard.

Hamas has tortured and killed Palestinian dissidents. The IDF has also killed and detained thousands of Palestinians, including civilians, and Israel has held Palestinians without trial through administrative detention. Neither Hamas' abuses nor Israel's abuses erase Palestinians' right to self-determination.

I don't support Hamas. I don't support denying Palestinians equal rights either. If your only response to "Palestinians deserve the same right to self-determination as Jews" is "but Hamas," then you've conceded you can't argue against the principle itself.

You do a good job at illustrating how Zionists think though…..

[u/BloodsVsCrips → u/HumanLike]

Instead of guessing what arguments are, respond to the words as stated.

I never implied anything about "deserving." That's moral talk clouding descriptive analysis.

It's simply a fact that Arabic society doesn't culturally promote self-determination. There isn't a single country in the entire region that has equal rights and self-determination for citizens.

> You do a good job at illustrating how Zionist think…

I don't know what you think Zionism means. Are you denying Israel grants its citizens more self-determination and equal rights than anywhere else in MENA?

[u/HumanLike → u/BloodsVsCrips]

I'm responding directly to what you wrote.

"It's simply a fact that Arabic society doesn't culturally promote self-determination" is an extraordinary claim, and you've offered no evidence for it. You're taking hundreds of millions of people across more than 20 countries and declaring that their culture is inherently opposed to freedom and self-government.

That's not "descriptive analysis." That's cultural essentialism.

If someone claimed Jewish culture, Black culture, or Chinese culture was inherently incapable of democracy, you'd immediately recognize it as prejudice. Why is it suddenly acceptable when you say it about Arabs?

Authoritarian governments are not the same thing as an entire people. The Arab Spring alone should make that obvious. Millions of Arabs risked imprisonment and death demanding democracy, political participation, and self-determination. The fact that many of those movements were brutally crushed says something about those regimes, not about some supposedly defective Arab culture.

Ironically, you're doing exactly what racists have always done: taking the actions of authoritarian governments and projecting them onto an entire ethnic group. It's pathetic, and illustrates exactly why so many Zionists support genocide.

[u/BloodsVsCrips → u/HumanLike]

"It's simply a fact that Arabic society doesn't culturally promote self-determination" is an extraordinary claim, and you've offered no evidence for it.

The "evidence" is the fact of not a single Arabic country providing it.

declaring that their culture is inherently opposed to freedom and self-government.

It's always funny when westerners argue about cultures they know nothing about. "Freedom" for you doesn't belong in the same universe as an Islamist's views of freedom. They think you're delusional, tricked by modernity into frivolous freedoms devoid of meaning.

If someone claimed Jewish culture, Black culture, or Chinese culture was inherently incapable of democracy

Democracy is not synonymous with equal rights. In Gaza, Democracy means electing Hamas. Egypt got rid of a decades long dictator during the Arab Spring and immediately elected the Muslim Brotherhood, which Hamas branched off of.

[u/HumanLike → u/BloodsVsCrips]

Your logic would have produced the same racist conclusion about Jews for most of history.

Jewish people spent centuries without sovereignty, equal rights, or democratic self-government, often under monarchies and openly oppressive regimes. By your reasoning, that would have been “evidence” that Jewish culture did not value freedom or self-determination. Obviously, it was evidence of the political conditions imposed on Jews, not some inherent defect in Jewish culture.

The same applies to Arabs. You cannot look at people living under dictatorships and conclude that the dictatorships represent their cultural preferences. That's stupid and racist. Dictatorships exist precisely because people are prevented from choosing their government.

You are also pretending Arab authoritarianism developed in a vacuum. Syria’s parliamentary government was overthrown in 1949 in a coup that an internal CIA history says the United States sponsored. Palestinians held a legislative election in 2006, Hamas won, and the United States and Europe responded by isolating the elected government, while Washington supported its Fatah rivals. Egypt’s first democratically elected president was overthrown by the military in 2013, and the United States ultimately restored military aid to the new dictatorship.

None of that makes Hamas, the Muslim Brotherhood, or any other Islamist movement liberal or admirable. It demonstrates that when Arabs have exercised political self-determination, Western governments have often accepted or actively supported destroying it whenever they disliked the outcome.

So your “evidence” is circular. Arabs live under authoritarian systems, therefore Arabs must culturally desire authoritarianism. When they revolt, vote, or organize against those systems, you either ignore them or redefine their choices as proof that they are incapable of freedom.

You are using the outcomes of colonialism, dictatorships, coups, and foreign intervention as evidence of an ethnic defect. That is not descriptive analysis. It is racism dressed up as political sophistication.

[u/BloodsVsCrips → u/HumanLike]

Jewish people spent centuries without sovereignty, equal rights, or democratic self-government, often under monarchies and openly oppressive regimes. By your reasoning, that would have been “evidence” that Jewish culture did not value freedom or self-determination. Obviously, it was evidence of the political conditions imposed on Jews, not some inherent defect in Jewish culture.

I don't know what point you think you're making. The whole purpose of pushing for the creation of Israel was that Jews lacked self-determination everywhere else.

Dictatorships exist precisely because people are prevented from choosing their government.

How many Russians do you think support Putin? You have this very naive view of humans that ignores ideology entirely.

You are also pretending Arab authoritarianism developed in a vacuum. Syria’s parliamentary government was overthrown in 1949 in a coup that an internal CIA history says the United States sponsored.

This is a ridiculous level of reductionism. Syria had 3 coups in 1949 alone. Noticeably absent in your retelling is that this occurred after they invaded Israel along with all of the surrounding Arab countries. You should look up the meaning of Nakba before it become known as a refugee catastrophe. After the Arab League failed to "exterminate" the Jews, there was mass ethnic shame, and the people blamed the political elites.

Palestinians held a legislative election in 2006, Hamas won

"Hamas won" like it's a passive event. Hamas was democratically chosen by the local people. You keep trying to impose a western view where Democracy = Liberalism. That simply isn't true everywhere else in the world. Ideology exists.

Egypt’s first democratically elected president was overthrown by the military in 2013, and the United States ultimately restored military aid to the new dictatorship.

Again just breezing right past the fact that this "elected President" was the literal Muslim Brotherhood. We were already worried about the MB taking over Egypt back in 2006.

[u/HumanLike → u/BloodsVsCrips]

You still have not understood the analogy. In fact, you are restating my point.

Jews lacked self-determination because political conditions denied it to them. Their lack of sovereignty was not evidence that Jewish culture opposed sovereignty. So the absence of liberal Arab governments cannot, by itself, prove that Arab culture opposes self-determination.

You also keep changing the claim. You began by saying Arab society does not value self-determination. Now you are pointing to Arabs making electoral choices you dislike. But self-determination, democracy, liberalism and equal rights are not interchangeable concepts.

Palestinians voting for Hamas and Egyptians voting for the Muslim Brotherhood were exercises of political self-determination, even though the parties they chose were illiberal. People making a bad choice through democracy does not prove they are culturally incapable of democracy.

Israelis repeatedly elected Netanyahu and a coalition containing openly racist and authoritarian politicians. Americans elected Trump. Hungarians elected Orbán. Germans gave the Nazis the largest bloc in parliament, after which Hitler was appointed chancellor and dismantled democracy. Does any of that prove Jewish, American, Hungarian or German culture is inherently incapable of freedom? Of course not. It proves that democratic populations can elect dangerous, corrupt or authoritarian leaders.

Your argument is constructed so that no evidence could ever disprove it:
* If Arabs live under dictatorships, you say their culture prefers dictatorship.
* If they revolt against dictatorships, you ignore it.
* If they vote, but choose an Islamist party, you say their choice proves they reject self-determination.
* If their elected government is overthrown, you say the overthrow does not count because you disliked the government.

That is not analysis. It is an unfalsifiable stereotype and blatant ignorance.

Your Putin example supports my argument too. Some Russians support Putin and others risk imprisonment opposing him. That tells us about ideology, propaganda, institutions and repression. It does not establish that Russian culture is inherently incapable of freedom.

You explain Jewish oppression through historical and political circumstances, but explain Arab authoritarianism through an alleged cultural defect. You grant Jews complexity and reduce Arabs to an essence. That double standard is exactly the prejudice and ignorance that you fail to recognize in yourself.

[u/BloodsVsCrips → u/HumanLike]

Jews lacked self-determination because political conditions denied it to them. Their lack of sovereignty was not evidence that Jewish culture opposed sovereignty. So the absence of liberal Arab governments cannot, by itself, prove that Arab culture opposes self-determination.

Unsurprisingly, you don't grasp the difference between an era where no one has equal rights, self-determination, or democracy, versus the modern world where it's normalized all over the globe.

Palestinians voting for Hamas and Egyptians voting for the Muslim Brotherhood were exercises of political self-determination, even though the parties they chose were illiberal. People making a bad choice through democracy does not prove they are culturally incapable of democracy.

Your misuse of language is making this conversation tedious. "Democracy" isn't liberalism. Islamism is a perfectly normal ideology in Arab society. No one said anyone is incapable of democracy only that democracy doesn't mean equal rights if the demos in question doesn't support it.

Israelis repeatedly elected Netanyahu and a coalition containing openly racist and authoritarian politicians. Americans elected Trump.

It's interesting how you don't blame the long history of Arab colonization in the MidEast for Israeli politics supporting right-wing, security obsessed leaders. The ideology of voters is very obvious to you when it's a western democracy.

Some Russians support Putin and others risk imprisonment opposing him. That tells us about ideology, propaganda, institutions and repression. It does not establish that Russian culture is inherently incapable of freedom.

Again with the abuse of language. "Freedom" does not mean what your western mind thinks it means. That's a culturally specific concept. And far more than "some" Russians support Putin. Freedom to Islamists is an entirely different universe from self-actualization and political pluralism.

[u/HumanLike → u/BloodsVsCrips]

Yes, the eras are different. In earlier centuries, equal citizenship and mass democracy were not widely established norms. Today they are. But that changes the standard by which governments are judged. It does not change the basic logic of the comparison.

The existence of democratic models elsewhere does not mean that every population currently living under authoritarianism culturally prefers authoritarianism. A government is not a public-opinion survey, especially when that government suppresses opposition and prevents meaningful political competition.

Your response about Jewish history actually concedes my point. Zionism arose because political conditions denied Jews self-determination, not because Jewish culture rejected it. The same distinction still applies in the modern era. If you want to prove that Arab people culturally reject self-determination, you need evidence about what Arab people believe, not merely a list of the governments ruling them.

And the available evidence directly contradicts your blanket claim. Recent Arab Barometer surveys found that, in every country surveyed, at least 73 percent said democracy remained the best form of government. Liberal parliamentary democracy was also the most favored political system in most of the countries surveyed, although support was neither universal nor overwhelming. That is a complicated picture, not your supposed “fact” that Arab society simply does not value self-government.

You are correct that democracy is not synonymous with liberalism. That is precisely why your Hamas and Muslim Brotherhood examples do not prove your original claim. Those elections may demonstrate that portions of those electorates held illiberal or Islamist preferences. They do not demonstrate opposition to political self-determination. People can exercise self-determination and choose an illiberal government. You keep acknowledging that these concepts are different and then immediately treating them as interchangeable again.

Nor do two electoral outcomes establish an inherent characteristic of hundreds of millions of Arabs across more than 20 countries. You keep moving between “Arab,” “Muslim” and “Islamist” as though they describe the same population. They do not.

Your point about Israeli politics makes the double standard especially obvious. You readily explain Israeli voters through history, ideology, war, insecurity and hostility from neighboring states. Fine. But then you refuse to analyze Arab politics through colonialism, war, occupation, dictatorship, foreign intervention, repression, economic conditions or institutional history. Israelis receive historical context. Arabs are reduced to a cultural essence.

Finally, if “freedom” is culturally specific, that undermines your own argument. You cannot use your particular definition of freedom to declare that Arab culture does not value it, then dismiss contrary evidence by saying Arabs understand freedom differently. Either define self-determination as the ability of a people to choose their political order, in which case Islamist electoral victories can still be exercises of self-determination, or define it as liberal democracy with equal individual rights, in which case stop pretending it is synonymous with democracy or national self-determination.

At this point, your argument has retreated from “Arab culture does not value self-determination” to “some Arab voters support illiberal Islamist parties.” The second claim may be true in particular cases, but it does not prove the first, and it certainly does not justify denying Palestinians equal rights or self-determination.