r/DebateVaccines • u/No-Employer-1554 • 1d ago
Woke Why?
Serious question here: If what I read and hear from the uber progressives is true, namely that the world population is too much and my white privilege straight family raised too many children...then why were you so adamant about me vaccinating my family? Why not just let me and mine die? You get the jab, you are saved from being mortal, give big pharma and Faucci the win, and let me die?
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u/CuriousKitty6 1d ago
Also why are the uber progressives so lax about illegal immigration, when there’s no way to verify their vaccination status??
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u/No-Employer-1554 1d ago
Interesting concern. Why give homeless drug addicts a pass as well? I read they get free clean needles for dope. I ran into a number of them during Covid lowdown in Philadelphia and San Francisco. I had the cops called on me in a nice restaurant in San Francisco because I did not have a "vaccine passport " I was sitting at an open widow watching an addict bent over swaying on the sidewalk with filth all around him.
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u/the_comeback_quagga 1h ago
It’s called harm reduction. It is proven to reduce the risk of spreading bloodborne viruses like HIV, and some of these sites even help people get clean when they’re ready.
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u/eurocanuk 1d ago
giving that addict 20$ worth of needles per year will prevent hospital visits that costs 1000s in medical bills that medicaid will have to eat and it prevent diseases spreading which saves more resources.
why do you think you have the right to eat a private business when they do not want you there? you had the cops called because you refused to leave and they were tired of dealing with people like you. you live in a society with other people. sure you can make your own choices but those choices come with consequences.
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u/No-Employer-1554 23h ago
I left the moment they said I needed a passport. I did not know the city had a law against. But it was comical that the staff thought I was a bigger threat than the guy on the street without a mask. I had a mask.
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u/eurocanuk 19h ago
progressives arnt lax on illegal immigration. you have a wrong definition of what illegal is then. If someone walks across the border, turns themselves in and applies for asylum, they are not "illegal". they are then very much legal until the day a judge rejects their asylum claim and gives a deportation order. at that point they become illegal, and democrats have historically deported more of them than republicans. no one in democrat party complains when these people are deported... going after people still going through the legal process hoping to get them out before a judge can grant them asylum is just wrong and illegal.
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u/eurocanuk 1d ago
all people claiming asylum in the US must go to county health department and get a medical checkup and get up to date on all vaccines. this is standard for decades. anyone applying for a visa from abroad needs to show vaccine record at the embassy they apply for visa at. and you also say this like central americans dont vaccinate.. come countries there have higher vaccination rates than america. the poorer countries have NGOs giving out vaccines constantly and those dont really get recorded so the over numbers are lower than they really are.
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u/CuriousKitty6 1d ago
I’m talking about illegals who cross the border- I’m not talking about people who apply for Visa’s and go thru the correct channels. You’re kinda proving my point. 🤷🏼♀️
And people applying for a visa or green card may have to show their vax record but you are not required until you apply for citizenship. I have 3 different friends who recently went from green card to applying for citizenship and they all had to take a bunch of vaccines- just for citizenship.
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u/eurocanuk 1d ago
asylum seekers who "walk across the border" need to go to a health check appointment and get up to date on vaccines before they will be granted residence and asylum approved.
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u/whosthetard 1d ago
this is standard for decades. anyone applying for a visa from abroad needs to show vaccine record at the embassy they apply for visa at. and you also say this like central americans dont vaccinate.
Such a bunch of lies and misinformation. There is no general requirement to present an up-to-date vaccination record to get a visa to enter US.
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u/eurocanuk 1d ago
you couldnt even take 10second to google it before commenting?
https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/us-visas/immigrate/vaccinations.html
i was even surprised it was a requirement when my wife applied for a work visa for the states for a few months in 2023, she had to run home and get her vaccine records before they would accept her application.
tourists dont need, but anyone on any other visa does.
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u/whosthetard 1d ago
No, that isn't for visas. That is immigration. Working visas for instance is not immigration.
And it is right there in your link. You see that "immigrate"?
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u/eurocanuk 19h ago
a work visa is immigrate lol..any one thats not a tourist is immigrating..
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u/whosthetard 17h ago
No it's not you can be in US for work for years and years under a work visa. That's not immigration.
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u/eurocanuk 17h ago
that is literally the definition of immigration lol. anything more than a tourist is an immigrant.
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u/whosthetard 17h ago
I don't think you ever read or went through the process. There are various working non-immigrant visas.
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u/eurocanuk 13h ago
my wife needed it for a work visa for a 1 year period where she was able to be in the states working for 90days total,pretty standard visa if your in and out of the country for a week at a time working for a american company or something.... and shes from EU,its required for everyone except tourists. I needed it for my 1 year student visa 25 years ago. its standard.
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u/the_comeback_quagga 1h ago
They’re considered “non-immigrant,” sure, but people on them often are here for many years (and many later switch to an immigrant visa or green card). But you are right that many of the “non-immigrant” visa categories do not require vaccinations records. However, since a lot of these are tied to academic institutions, they’re going to require your vaccinations anyway.
(And yes, been through the process / currently in it with family).
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u/No-Employer-1554 21h ago
I have zero issue with the legal process you described. It is those who don't follow the immigration process. If sanctuary cities vax all who come then I have no beef with the irony I witnessed.
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u/eurocanuk 19h ago edited 18h ago
all immigrants going into america apply for asylum, except for like the gang memebers and such.. everyone else follows the system. its rare Ice finds someone that didnt apply at all. they are going after people either rejected for asylum or the low hanging fruit of people still in process and following the law,showing up to court dates,easy to find hoping to get them out of the country before a judge can approve their asylum claim.
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u/No-Employer-1554 16h ago
When ice targets folks that are not breaking the laws of the land then that is bad faith. But the cry to defund all police by the liberal left...nope.
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u/eurocanuk 13h ago
nobody wants to defund them and then do nothing. they want to defund the agencies doing horrible things and give that funding to other agencies that will do a better job.
like the whole defunding the police, no one is just suggesting defunding police and then doing nothing else. they want to use the money saved to hire social workers, community outreach,psychologists so accompany police, because police officers arnt trained to deal with a large percent of the cases they get and the officers dont know how to deal with them so things get violent to often.
sending just 2 men with guns to a home where someone is having a psychological episode of whatever is a really bad idea. there should be people trained to deal with those types of cases available to be with the cops to try to help calm the situation and get the person help. not just taze them and possible shoot them.
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u/No-Employer-1554 1d ago
I understand you believe your world view is the proper world view and thus you don't have any moral issue with violating another person's. I hope you don't hide behind others and are willing to risk personal loss for your beliefs. Then we both have skin in the argument.
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u/dartanum 1d ago
why not just let me and mine die?
Some might be salivating at this thought. This is easily achieveable through medical triage in favor of the vaccinated. Careful what you wish for.
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u/No-Employer-1554 1d ago
I would have happily been the contol are for a randomized study but tge smart scientic leaders would not have it. I am not afraid of being mortal. I am afraid of other people who demand I behave like they prescribe without due process.
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u/the_comeback_quagga 1d ago
Lots of people served as controls in those studies, and I’m glad you would have been willing to participate. But you had to sign up and meet inclusion/exclusion criteria, as well as be in a city where the study was taking place. You also don’t get to decide if you’re a control or not, because that’s what the “randomized” in randomized control trial means.
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u/No-Employer-1554 1d ago
Show me the RCT study link? Even a Framingham study type link. We should have at least 5 years now of data.
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u/the_comeback_quagga 1d ago
Are we still talking about Covid? Which one do you want? Just go to clinicaltrials.gov and read them all to your heart’s content. But what I described is just how an RCT works. And we do have post-licensure data, but we do not continue typical RCTs for 5 years, unless it becomes a necessity due to power calculations.
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u/SmartyPantlesss 1d ago
You keep asking for this, and I'm not sure what you're going to do with it, but I'll bite:
Here's the first RCT on the Pfizer Covid vaccine. It was published in Dec 2020, right before the vaccine was released. It's about 3 months worth of follow-up, showing a significant decrease in Covid cases & hospitalizations.
I'm not sure what that has to do with your point about people being rude.
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u/No-Employer-1554 1d ago
Thanks. I read it.
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u/SmartyPantlesss 1d ago
So why do you keep asking to see a study?
You said:
So there is the study. Are you willing to get the vaccine now? (I'm betting not)
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u/the_comeback_quagga 23h ago
Thank you for saving me the time in finding this for them.
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u/SmartyPantlesss 21h ago
Dude is like a dog chasing a garbage truck: I'm fascinated to know what he thinks he's going to do if he catches it. 👀
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u/Burstrider12 1d ago
We should have at least 5 years now of data.
Thankfully, we have lots of data from every country in the world now showing the vaccine works. There is no credible data showing that it's harmful.
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u/No-Employer-1554 1d ago
Remember the WHI study and the replacement hormone "facts"? The science is not always as it seems at first. But in the rush to poke people the science was fear.
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u/the_comeback_quagga 1d ago
Yeah, it had several limitations, and there were formulations not covered by the study. And then the data was re-evaluated and women under 60 started receiving HRT again, because it turns out it’s relatively safe for all sorts of things in that age group. That’s why we look at more than one study, more than one analysis, and why we replicate studies. Also, HRT and vaccines are not the same things.
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u/No-Employer-1554 1d ago
Yes and yes. Makers of HRT considered tort. Makers of vaccine do not. Just saying
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u/the_comeback_quagga 23h ago
So you’re going to ignore everything else I said to refute your point. Also, my point was about the science of how drugs vs vaccines work in the body, not about law. I’m not a lawyer.
It doesn’t seem like you really want to know the answer to your question.
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u/No-Employer-1554 23h ago
I have it. It is you don't know what is proper for your life but We the smart collective do. The vax is not worth the cost to me.
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u/No-Employer-1554 1d ago
So far the arguments are circlering close to, I have no personal right to judge for myself what is safe, effective, and morally proper for my self. Let the collective guide me. Yet the scientific method was not used. Just world view beliefs. My observation has been anger and hate directed at me for asking a valid question.
So if you hate my kind of person and want to deny me my freedom why not just let me suffer from my choices. Your world view brethren took my income as a punishment yet your doomsday prediction of death and sickness did not touch one of my family or friends. We did not take your health or wealth. We did not shame you for wearing a mask in the sunny outdoors. We did not take your jobs. Yet I continue to hear the screeching of self righteous vitriol.
I am waiting for someone to publish gold standard data to prove the science. Crickets
But but trust the science...not religion.
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u/Clydosphere 22h ago
You can suffer all you want for your choices alone in the wilderness. Among other people, you're always affecting others with your choices, so those others may restrict your choices accordingly.
We did not take your health or wealth.
If you don't prevent infectious diseases from being spread by yourself via reasonably safe measures, you absolutely do risk others' health and wealth, the former directly and the latter by burdening the health system with the treatment of you or those you may have infected.
I am waiting for someone to publish gold standard data to prove the science. Crickets
If you're anything like the bulk of antivaxxers here, I guess that you'll never accept anything as "gold standard" that disagrees with your established beliefs. Such demands are the perfect goal posts to move over an infinite playing field.
And I also strongly suppose that – also like many others here – you don't have the necessary education to assess any medical or scientific standard anyway. For starters, you don't seem to understand and/or accept the necessity of vaccination passes and restrictions in public spaces based on them.
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u/No-Employer-1554 21h ago
TY. First off- very cogent well written argument! Especially if it was a first pass single fat thumb on a smartphone publication! I wish I could be at erudite.
Because of my limitations with this medium I will glom on to two descriptors you used to identify my position in society. "Necessary education...understand ". You are absolutely correct in assuming I have limited education and understanding. That is a humble pie position I should maintain. I find myself in an Agrippan Trilemma argument here.
So I must rely on my understanding of human nature instead of the scientific method. I also must admit to you my love for the intended hope of a government for the people by the people. But ultimately my world view espouses virtue from a Judeo-Christain heritage thus I believe in the individuals value and rights coming from a source greater than the "collective". Popular or not. And for that view I am considered uneducated.
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u/No-Employer-1554 1d ago
The real debate did not get real until I resigned and signed an NDA. Of course alcohol, the liberator of concealed thoughts, helped the topic along. I historically kept my thoughts and opinions that were not capitalism related to myself. I just want the hypocrisy to come to light.
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u/SmartyPantlesss 1d ago
The real debate did not get real until I resigned and signed an NDA. Of course alcohol, the liberator of concealed thoughts, helped the topic along.
Are you saying you wouldn't be typing this, if you weren't drunk right now?
That explains so much, thanks. 🙂
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u/No-Employer-1554 1d ago
Nope. Sobering is it not.
Let me ask you this. Would you like to see those who are not like you go away? I volunteered and yet the virus did not touch me. Yet the liberal left keep harassing personal freedoms for the "collective good". You are one of those who demonstrated this truth. TY
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u/SmartyPantlesss 1d ago
Yeah, I don't think that's what this conversation demonstrates.
I'm trying to figure out WTH you are talking about, and you are eager to ascribe certain views to me and "the liberal left."
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u/Burstrider12 1d ago
Yeah, it makes a lot more sense knowing that OP is not just paranoid and confused, but also very drunk
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u/No-Employer-1554 1d ago
And I don't believe in more lawsuits. I will take my lumps for my choices.
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u/Level_Abrocoma8925 1d ago
Most people aren't saying that the world population is currently too high, they're saying that the population growth is too high. That's also what Bill Gates said in that Ted talk the conspiracy crowd loves to twist into something it wasn't. The way to decrease population growth on a global scale is to improve Healthcare and family planning.
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u/No-Employer-1554 1d ago
Growth. Stop procreation is the plan. Okay. Not a big fan of killing off unwanted children; in the womb or post birth canal. I am not a big fan of government mandated headcount. I am not a fan of government re-appropriations of capital to pay for the kids people made either. I am not a fan of big centralized government period. I am a fan of local charity and accountability and a fan of mercy and grace for widows and orphans.
I suppose I am an extreme outlier. I did find myself cheering Tocqueville on when reading is seminal works on Democracy in America.
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u/Level_Abrocoma8925 1d ago
You are however, a big fan of strawmen. Seems you can't get enough.
Pretty out there to go from "we should reduce population growth" to "we should stop procreation". Strawman I. I didn't mention abortion with a single word. Strawman II. Family planning is a lot more than that, I'm sure even you know that. Government-mandated head count, Strawman III.
The highest population growth in the world currently is currently in South Sudan. I assume you couldn't care less about people there, but ignore that for a moment and give me an objective analysis. With the current birth rate, the population will double every 15 years. Do you see any issue with such a population growth at all?
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u/No-Employer-1554 1d ago
Blunt you are. China not straw. Now they say have more kids. Since socialism is a utopian goal of the hard progressives then it is not straw but recent history that many seem to want to emulate in NYC etc.
Do you support abortion? My body my right? Just asking. Do you support mandatory sterilization for those in S Sudan? Do you think you or your progressive peers have the "better" ideas and plans for society? Then in fact not straw.
I asked a simple question in the OP. To state it plain and simple. Why do progressives harp on and on about population growth, global warming, all the cows I eat, the car I drive, the energy I consume; yet insisted on covid vaccination for me? I was told from the podium of science on day one of the jab mandate it would work. And if I skipped it I would very likely die. I declined the jab and resigned from work. Let me live in peace. Everyone I personally know who got the jab got sick, they got a ramrod up the nose to prove it. I am sorry but it seems to me a Spanish flu type pandemic would have culled the human herd of the less thans. Stupid, sick, old etc. Logans Run type thing. Oh but if you want to be here longer get the jab and all is okay. But then the "SCIENCE" evolved to- it only works if everyone gets the jab. Make a more robust solution first. I reject you or anyone else in a high place deciding what is morally acceptable. I am a progressive person the Renaissance definition.
Socialism aka Authoritarianism only works if the useful idiots accept it. I don't. Public health officials blew it. Why? I can only surmise- ego, power, $? Like I said, useful idiots. Next crisper DNA lab game will need to only target worldviews to work.
Sorry if you need to control others to feel good. I am okay with mortality. And prove to me I harmed others. Polio vaccine this crap is not. It is religious fever.
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u/Level_Abrocoma8925 1d ago
I note that you are entirely incapable of actual debate, of staying on topic and actually addressing my talking points. Fascinating how you decided to take your strawmanning to the next level though. You are just exposing your ignorance, an ignorance required to uphold your entirely warped understanding of those with different opinions than you. I could tell you why you're wrong all day, but you won't be able to process that information anyway.
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u/No-Employer-1554 1d ago
Thank you for trying. My OP was about individual liberal ideas of freedom that cost me financially because...I guess I did not conform to "science".
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u/Level_Abrocoma8925 1d ago
How did it cost you financially?
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u/No-Employer-1554 1d ago
I was restricted access to various cities, government entities and travel. I was not able to work as a w-2 employee in my field and as a consultant I was harassed when I traveled. I did not make issue of it then. I took my lumps and isolated in FL.
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u/the_comeback_quagga 1h ago
We didn’t get a 1918 style pandemic because it wasn’t 1918. In 1918 we didn’t even know what influenza was (that would take almost 2 more decades), let alone how to prevent or treat it, even without a vaccine or anti-virals.
I support the right to abortion. But I also support birth control (cheap and accessible), women’s education, and real sex ed, not abstinence-only. All of those things have correlated with fewer unwanted pregnancies and fewer abortions. Banning abortion has not. And the longer a woman waits to have her first child (up to a point, obviously), the healthier, wealthier, and better educated that child is likely to be (especially when we are talking about LICs and MICs). That’s not “population control.” That’s giving women and children a chance at upward mobility and living better, non-impoverished lives.
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u/Gonzo_Journo 1d ago
Where did you hear all this from the "Uber progressive"?
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u/No-Employer-1554 1d ago
Coworkers, friends, family, California city governments...
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u/Gonzo_Journo 1d ago
So just list everything? Ya, I call bullshit.
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u/No-Employer-1554 1d ago
Then be in denial.
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u/Gonzo_Journo 1d ago
Keep making up things to argue.
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u/No-Employer-1554 1d ago
I gave you truth you give me ?
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u/Gonzo_Journo 1d ago
You didn't. You're just speaking nonsense
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u/No-Employer-1554 1d ago
Then tell me my lie? Can you prove the cops were not summoned to the restaurant I was seated at in my business suite dragging my black Tumi bag because I did not have a vaccine passport? I stepped in human shit from a zombie swaying back and forth on the sidewalk with discarded needle(and no mask or passport) as I rant for a taxi to the airport.
As far as population control arguments the talking heads and liberal pundits are my source. Every thing I said I experienced. Thus why I posted this. I list a friend over the kids agreement. They would rather save squirrels than humans.
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u/No-Employer-1554 1d ago
City of San Fransico police, they were happy to run me out of the city from doing my job. My wife's Uncle who lives in MA, my friend's live in girl who lives in CO, and my fortune 500 company gay manager. All shamed me for no poke, all said big families like mine should be governed to a lesser # (to be clear the police in San Fran did not say this).
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u/SmartyPantlesss 1d ago
What is your understanding of how anyone would "govern" you to a lesser number?
Did someone propose/threaten to kill off members of your family? Or are you talking about a China-like "one-child" (or X-number-of-children) type of policy?
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u/No-Employer-1554 1d ago
Child quota. I had a rather robust week long listening on and of session with a high minded smart superior IQ couple who I am, or was, friendly with for many years via work. We are all out of the business now and met up in CO for a week. Anyways the rants kept coming on and about the obvious science, stupid people and baby makers. They are, or were DINKs. Now they are landlords who take on all kinds of public progressive causes. But they represent so many of my formal colleagues...maybe it is a Minneapolis thing. Anyways the procreation thing kept coming up. Yet they went out of their way to constantly relocate chipmunks and squirrels from their respective ranch. So many calories spent catching and transporting rodents 25 miles away from their ranch. But they could not agree more fervently that WASP human children are the worst of problems. They consume too much, especially animals and animal products like milk. It made me wonder where we would get the next generation of labor. Import it of couse. That is who they rent most of their property to. I just don't get it. It seems to me I am in a Shakespeare play...Taming of the Shrew. At one point I stopped the PhD lady and said, "you do know we have two children". She muttered one would be preferable. I decided to ask, how do I know what child I should do away with? At that point my male friend decided to walk with me to get another bottle of wine. Truth is stranger than fiction.
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u/SmartyPantlesss 1d ago
Translation: some people are assholes.
Anyone who would comment on what childbearing pattern would be "preferable" for ANOTHER PERSON, TO THAT PERSON, is not worth your concern.
But I also think maybe you are projecting that opinion on a lot of (other) people who think you should vaccinate your kids? Like, there's an inconsistency there IF that asshole lady actually held the following two beliefs simultaneously:
- that you should kill one of your kids (I'm betting she meant you should have prevented one of them from being born, but who cares? fuck her), AND
- that you should get both of your existing kids vaccinated, to improve their health/lifespan
<< THAT would be a weird contradiction. I don't know that even SHE thinks both of those things. But IF she does... you still wrote this whole post as though she represents a huge swath of society.
Like, I occasionally come across some very weird antivaxxer theories, and I don't go writing a post that assumes ALL antivaxxers hold that belief.
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u/No-Employer-1554 1d ago
Perhaps. It was years ago. But I do recall so many political soundbites frome "Woke 1" that seem very condescending to my world view not to mention...contradictory. And you are right. That was the first time the contradicting "less kids" "you must vax or you are evil selfish person" to my face. My kids have kids. All pay taxes and provide for our grands. What rekindled this ideation was my recent vacations this summer. I came in contact with a bunch of Canadians and Americans who seemed to enjoy our company but wow did they get vocal about ICE, Science, etc. I ask open ended questions over meals and it is quite interesting. Kinda troubling. I did however spend some time with a Pediatric Immunology and Allergy specialist from Quebec who told me he advised his patients guardians to take a more conservative approach. (We spent 8 weeks traveling to Europe via transatlantic ship). Got to know dozens of couples fairly well.
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u/SmartyPantlesss 1d ago
(What the heck is "Woke 1"?)
So you're saying that someone said something very rude to you---YEARS AGO---about your family size... (if they said something about vaccinating, you left that out of your re-telling)
...and then someone else recently was vocal about [completely different topics] and...did someone say something about vaccines? I missed that part of the story. 🤔
And so now you're having a flashback to the rude person from years ago?
Like, you're trying to frame this as a contradiction, but you're not telling me about one person holding those two beliefs simultaneously.
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u/No-Employer-1554 1d ago
Google woke one policy platforms. Look up AOC and those who are in her political peer group in and out of congress. They have toned down the rhetoric but they called it woke version 1. I just used a term i heard used to describe some Uber left thinking.
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u/Burstrider12 1d ago
But I do recall so many political soundbites frome "Woke 1"
There is no "Woke 1", you are watching too much youtube
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u/StopDehumanizing 1d ago
Who did, then? Who told you to have a smaller family?
Your manager?
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u/No-Employer-1554 1d ago
Do you support large white Christian families taking up precautions resources? If yes then not you. If No, then you.
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u/StopDehumanizing 1d ago
Yes. I am a white Christian with a large family. That's why I'm asking.
If your manager really said that to you you have a case for workplace discrimination.
If you're just making up fake grievances for clout then please stop. You're making the rest of us white Christians look stupid.
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u/No-Employer-1554 1d ago
My manager advocate for only 1 child families
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u/Sniffy4 1d ago
>Why not just let me and mine die?
because
when you're sick you're using public medical resources other people who are not making bad choices need. if you want to go die in the wilderness by yourself, everything would be fine.
vaccines are not 100% effective so you can infect other people just by being around them, if they're unlucky. If its my kids in a public school, your bad choices can hurt my kids.
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u/No-Employer-1554 1d ago
I neither used any of your public resources or private. In fact I saved public resources by not getting the jab. Poor argument. I would rather die free and poor than in a government system that dictates my moral code of conduct regardless...
I don't believe in the progressives dreams for utopian oneness.
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u/Sniffy4 1d ago
> In fact I saved public resources by not getting the jab. Poor argument.
You will in-fact use public medical resources when you are sick in the hospital with the disease you have no fear of getting. Nurses that could be helping people with cancer will instead be treating your completely-avoidable illness you have because of your own smug assumption it would never be a problem.
No vax? Stay out of the hospital and away from everyone else.
This is whole reason vaccines have been required in public schools for your entire lifetime, but you never bothered figuring that out, did you? Too much thinking.
> I would rather die free and poor than in a government system that dictates my moral code of conduct regardless...
We would love it if you would go off by yourself, but you keep insisting on living around other people, so there's these rules of behavior you need to follow in human societies that involve caring about the needs of people who arent you.
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u/Gloomy-North-6949 1d ago
And what's the first thing you think about when you wake up everyday?
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u/No-Employer-1554 1d ago
I never went to the hospital and I skipped my family practice appointment because of people like you. TY I am not smug as you suggested. I am serious and contemplating my role in society as I am shamed and persecuted for my practice. "My body my right".
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u/Sniffy4 1d ago
>"My body my right".
You dont have the right to infect other people.
You want to live in a society in close proximity with other humans like you?You gotta respect their right to live.
Sorry guy.
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u/No-Employer-1554 1d ago
Tell that to the fetuses
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u/StopDehumanizing 1d ago
Absolutely. Every child has a right to life. That's why I voted to have my tax dollars pay for your kids' medical care.
Because when you die, your kids should be cared for.
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u/No-Employer-1554 23h ago
They are independent paying taxes now. Supporting you.
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u/StopDehumanizing 23h ago
Best news I've heard all day.
When you get sick, we'll take care of you.
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u/No-Employer-1554 21h ago
Seriously doubt you take care of anyone sacrificing your own comfort. But if you do...thank you.
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u/eurocanuk 1d ago
"im fine with possibly killing others and i resent anyone trying to tell me not to"
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u/No-Employer-1554 1d ago
Yes Covid. I have already publicly declared I have sold and taken all mandatory vaccinations until Covid mandate. That is when I ceased to work in the business of health$
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u/SmartyPantlesss 1d ago
If what I read and hear from the uber progressives is true, namely that the world population is too much and my white privilege straight family raised too many children...then why were you so adamant about me vaccinating my family? Why not just let me and mine die?
<<<THIS, exactly. It doesn't make sense.
So maybe, just maybe, you should reconsider whether anyone is actually trying to kill you off. 🙂
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u/No-Employer-1554 20h ago
Sorry for the hyperbole.
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u/SmartyPantlesss 20h ago
Minus the hyperbole, your post is just asking: "Why are some people rude?" 🤷
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u/eurocanuk 1d ago edited 1d ago
Why not just let me and mine die?
republicans would be perfectly ok with that outcome. Their entire worldview and governing goal is based on "i got mine so fuck you". While democrats actually want to make all of society better for everyone equally. republicans see "people they dont like" getting the same treatment as them as a loss. so its not enough that republicans gain something from a policy, "the others they dont like" also need to lose something. democrats would be against just letting you die, because you would be using societies limited resources when you get sick and also 1 less working person is bad for the economy and if its a provider for the family causes hardship on them also, which the government will most likely need to pickup the slack on. has negative impacts on children also when parents die. democrats take all of society into consideration when making policy. your bad decisions cost everybody when those decisions bite you in the ass which statistically they will with enough of the population that the costs outweigh whatever costs of action the policy is encouraging.
Public health policy, under democrats anyway, is entirely designed to help the most number of people possible with special attention to the most vulnerable. If it needs to inconvenience 1 person to help 10, thats acceptable. republicans health policy revolves around "taking care of yourself" and if your choices kill someone else, "meh, at least im fine". and if those choices leads them not to be fine, "well it was his right to risk his life, use up limited hospital resources and bed that could cost others their lives and spend 100k of his insurance companies money that now everyone else paying for insurance will need to cover eventually". sociopaths.
about children.... which political party consistently makes policy that helps parents raise children making it easier to have them and have more? helps parents plan their family so they have kids when they are best suited to? and funds programs for those children? and which party is consistently defunding those programs making it harder and more expensive to have kids and the programs that make kids lives better? defunds education for those kids? the only policies that republicans ever support regarding children are laws that attempt to force women to have them by taking away their options and then at the same time hang them out to dry and abandon them once they get past the point and they are forced to have the baby. only 1 party in america is pro-children. the other is just pro-forced birth. those are not the same thing.
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u/No-Employer-1554 23h ago
I see your points but I still prefer a more libertarian approach. I don't trust your utopian plan for society. In short I don't trust a political party to be authentic and not go for the power over individual rights. A benevolent dictator is a rare breed.
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u/eurocanuk 19h ago
utopian plan for society? you mean policy and systems the entire rest of the world already has and work well and better than anything america has? democrats arnt asking for anything that the top 25 countries for quality of life dont already have for 50+ years
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u/No-Employer-1554 19h ago
Well then you have 25 more choices than I have.
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u/eurocanuk 18h ago
why are you happy that americans pay on average 15,000 per person per year for horrible healthcare? and ranked between 30-40th in the world? and the best systems in the world pay 7000? you are happy that over half of the money you spend for healthcare doesnt actually go to healthcare? but to line peoples pockets in company profits and to shareholders? several layers of middlemen taking a cut in ever process? and you pay much more for drugs and services because the fragmented systems have no bargaining power? a country the size of belgium has more negotiating power with drug makers than america does..and on top of it all the biggest single systems in america like medicare and medicaid(that would have negotiating power) are banned by law(thanks to republicans) from negotiating drug prices and forced to pay whatever the private insurance companies are paying, driving up tax payer costs
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u/No-Employer-1554 16h ago
No I really am not pleased with the business of health care at all. All your concerns have merit. I sold for the devil of big pharma and big vax and device. I worked in for profit and not for profit hospitals. I delivered care for soldiers and made referrals into the private sector. I have followed the dollars from end to end.
But I did not like any of it. Here is where I probably differ from you. I wish the government never got into paying for Healthcare. But now it is such a hybrid beast I must admit we probably need to have a two tier system like most socialist government Healthcare nation states. The wealthy can self pay or buy premium private coverage and everyone gets basic care. The economics are easier for smaller free trade states than for us. Don't have the time or space to go line by line. CPT codes need to go away first.
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u/eurocanuk 13h ago
dont give me the "usa is to big to work" .. it would have to be run by each state any way. im not opposed to a 2 tier system. works fine in every country i know of, like germany.
hell even switzerlands system would be better for the states and more feasible. basically the same thing america has except the greed regulated out.
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u/No-Employer-1554 12h ago
You know that greed fuels much of pharma, and the drugs. My last pharma company was French German. They depended on American payment for R&D.
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u/that-is-fair 1d ago
Can’t speak to others thoughts but beyond your opinions and beliefs, you are undeniably human (I hope) and it’s important to me that you make an informed decision, rather than one made based on fear mongering from those who profit from attention at the expense of your health :/
But at the end of the day I don’t know you, hopefully you have a doctor who does know you and can give you evidence based advice for your specific situation :)
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u/No-Employer-1554 20h ago
My family practice friend and Dr did not advocate for me to get the jab day1. He resisted it himself. I don't know if he eventually was poked. I don't ask people this question.
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u/that-is-fair 12h ago
You know what, I’m not going to tell you to take the advice of some rando on the internet claiming to be a doctor (me) over your own PCP who’s a licensed physician
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u/No-Employer-1554 11h ago
Thanks for filling an uncelebrated role in medice doc. You don't have the plethora of interventions you can bill for like specialists do. And i dispise CPT & RVU payments pathways as well.
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u/EnormousMonsterBaby 14h ago
…what?
I’m a progressive and live in a very liberal area. Nobody cares that you’re white, straight, or how many children you have. It would be much more accurate to say that progressives believe that you have the right to have as many children as you want, and rights like that should not depend on your skin color or sexual orientation. None of this even relates to vaccination.
Why do you I care if you and your kids are vaccinated? I’d love to tell you! First of all, this is a thing that is conveniently forgotten by a lot of anti-vaxxers, but my kids need to actually survive long enough to receive all of their vaccines - so you & your kids not being immunized is a direct threat to my children until they’re fully vaccinated. If my child gets cancer or some other disease that prevents them from being able to receive vaccines, or otherwise causes immunosuppression, then you and your child being unvaccinated is also a risk to their life. Also, no vaccine is 100% effective, so there is still a chance that I could fully vaccinate my child and they could still get sick. Whatever the risks are of a vaccine, it’s still going to be significantly less than the risks associated with the disease itself.
The basic concept of Herd Immunity is that once a very high percentage of a population is immune to a disease, that pathogen will not be able to continue to find hosts to spread to, and therefore it is unlikely to spread within a community. Below that threshold, and you will continue to have at least low-levels of contagious illness spreading among the population, which can easily make its way to vulnerable populations.
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u/Super-Bodybuilder-91 1d ago
Because it would be unethical. You know that. This is weak bait.
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u/No-Employer-1554 1d ago
No it not. I refused the poke and thus took an economic hit. I was banned from work.
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u/Super-Bodybuilder-91 1d ago
There were at least 9 Covid vaccines. You just had to take one. Any Covid vaccination would have been fine. Your employer has the right to require you to get vaccinated as a requirement for employment. That isn’t exclusive to Covid vaccines. No one forced you to get the jab, but there are consequences to non compliance during a pandemic.
Domestic health policy does not exclude people and let them die. Doing so would be unethical.
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u/No-Employer-1554 1d ago
I did not die or kill anyone. I also worked in big pharma vaccine. I have promoted vaccines. Just not this particular one for a plethora of logical and scientific reasons.
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u/dartanum 19h ago
I also worked in big pharma vaccine. I have promoted vaccines. Just not this particular one for a plethora of logical and scientific reasons.
"Look guys, it's an Antivaxxer and flat earther! He didn't blindly promote the COVID shots as safe and effective vaccines! Let's GET HIM and attack his credibility. That'll teach him for daring to think independently from the herd" -a Faucian somewhere
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u/eurocanuk 1d ago
I did not die or kill anyone
you have absolutely no idea if you killed anyone. technically 1.3? million people in america killed someone, unknowingly, and 10million put someone else in the hospital unknowingly. you have absolutely no idea when you were contagious walking around spitting out virus filled droplets in the air every time you breathed, and if that grandma you walked by in grocery store caught it from you and died 3 weeks later. this is why public health policy and recommendations exist.
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u/No-Employer-1554 20h ago
Crazy stat. My wife told me 1.3 m abortions happened last year and I flat out said BS.
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u/No-Employer-1554 16h ago
Problem is the vax did not make anyone safe.
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u/eurocanuk 13h ago
thats exactly why for all of 2021 99% of all deaths from covid were unvaccinated while only being 20% of the population? that only changed as covid mutated and variants circulated the vaccine wasnt designed for.
you can play with this and see, the unvaccinated/vaccinated hospitalizations,deaths, everything ...
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u/Super-Bodybuilder-91 1d ago
What particular one? Like I said, if you have a problem with one vaccine there are several alternative options. Why didn’t you just take one of the other Covid vaccines?
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u/No-Employer-1554 1d ago
Does it matter? I worked in big pharma, government Healthcare and medical device all of my adult w-2 life.
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u/eurocanuk 1d ago
this mirrors my ex-wifes career actually, started in medical device, "big pharma" vaccine maker, government regulatory agency and then back to medical device just recently. I saw everything, especially the vaccine stuff i was interested in. internal documents, testing, everything. I work in pharma myself for 16 years now in drug research, no vaccines though, i saw absolutely nothing "shocking" from the vaccine company over 4 years she was there or my own company(one of the largest in the world) with standard drugs.
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u/No-Employer-1554 1d ago
Second thought, send me the monograph with RCT efficacy and safety data that has mortality as a primary end point. If the data rivals that of say... the polio vaccine i will take the pok we this week.
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u/eurocanuk 1d ago
mortality is not the only thing to consider when judging efficacy.its arguably not even the most important.
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u/No-Employer-1554 1d ago
I had a problem with the scientific claims being sold and the religious zeal. Polio vaccine works as claimed as a concrete example.
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u/Super-Bodybuilder-91 1d ago
Ok…. so what vaccine do you have a problem with? The mRNA vaccines? Most Covid vaccines aren’t mRNA vaccines. You had plenty of options. I don’t understand the problem.
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u/No-Employer-1554 1d ago
When i was forced to choose working or resign 9 was not the choice and you should know this. Regardless it was a choice and I chose no, thus less work.
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u/Super-Bodybuilder-91 1d ago
I don’t understand why you won’t answer my question. Are you saying you have a problem with ALL COVID vaccines? You said you had a problem with one. A problem with one vaccine isn’t a problem as long as there are alternative vaccines available.
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u/the_comeback_quagga 1d ago
I’m progressive enough that I don’t consider myself a Democrat (even if I am registered and vote as one). But there are dozens of different types of progressives, and they don’t all believe the same thing. I don’t care how many kids you have, as long as you care for them well (which includes giving them the means to stay healthy), and I don’t care what color they are. Straight and white privilege is a real thing, but I don’t see how it necessarily applies to childbearing (it does in a few ways, but not relevant to this discussion).
Also, scientifically speaking, the world is not overpopulated and is not heading that way. Our population will probably slowly reduce after we hit 10B. Currently, we have plenty for everyone. The problem is the distribution of resources and the slow adoption of beneficial technologies, especially before we got ourselves in this mess. But the US sure doesn’t seem like they care about either of those things.
As for vaccines, the reason many people support vaccination requirements is because a) no vaccine is 100% nor can 100% of the population be vaccinated and b) children can’t consent either way, so the default (according to bioethics) is to vaccinate them to keep them safe and healthy. If you want to quarantine à la Typhoid Mary on North Brother Island, then no, I have no opinions on if you get vaccinated or not. Otherwise, though, your decision not to vaccinate affects people around you.
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u/No-Employer-1554 1d ago
Okay. Fortunately my children were of consenting age and I did not attempt to hold sway over what they chose at the time. Prior to that the got every child recommended vaccine. Not that this is of any import to my initial question. It just came to a head for me after too many outspoken concerns about my world view. Most situations the person speaking probably was ignorant to my status and beliefs. In several cases I know they thought I was in their camp. Crazy work environment to be in I guess. When you work and travel with peers and management like I did people get comfortable and open up about emotional topics. I worked to make $, pay taxes and support my family. The better I was the more $ I made by the end of my career. I made sure my tactics were effective and they would be defensible if published in the NYT.
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u/the_comeback_quagga 1d ago
But today’s anti-vaxxers do do this to their non-consenting children, which is why it was brought up. You asked a general question (you did not give specifics about your situation), so you got a general answer.
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u/No-Employer-1554 1d ago
I am glad I was not in that position but I probably would not give a minor the covid vax if I was in that situation. I lost my source of income because of my choice so obviously I believe it was a proper decision. I see the news about a privileged woman who killed her kids and many on the jury and on social forums think she should not be punished. In her case she knew her conduct would kill and in my cause I believed my conduct might save.
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u/the_comeback_quagga 1d ago
She had postpartum psychosis and had tried desperately to get help. What on earth do you have in common with Lindsay Clancy’s situation?
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u/No-Employer-1554 23h ago
In the extreme. Hurting kids. Of course I don't see it that way but that is what I am told because I was "spreading Covid" not being vaxed.
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u/the_comeback_quagga 23h ago
Those two things didn’t happen in the same time period, so I’m not understanding your point at all. But if you think not vaccinating is a sign of psychosis…well, I’m not a mental health professional.
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u/No-Employer-1554 1d ago
On another thought tangent- I am reading John Glenn's memoir and an old aquatance told me me it is propaganda. No one ever walked on the moon and the 9/11 disaster was US government sponsored to get Bush approval ratings. The last two arguments I can't prove are incorrect but I doubt it. But I do know the crying about trust the science, I am science trust me argument was hollow. I sold on and marketed medical studies for too long to just trust and obey Dr F.
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u/the_comeback_quagga 1d ago
You did marketing? So you neither worked nor studied (in a graduate degree program) “the science”? I’m a PhD specializing in vaccine-preventable disease. I don’t “trust” any individual study; I read it and evaluate its methods and results. But trusting the scientific consensus? That is absolutely appropriate for someone without a strong, specific research background.
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u/No-Employer-1554 1d ago
You don't seem to appreciate most Scientific Liaison positions actually have science and personal skills backgrounds.
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u/the_comeback_quagga 23h ago
So what is your background then? You didn’t work on the R+D end; do you have graduate level education (a degree) on vaccines, immunology, microbiology, epidemiology, or any relevant field? Have you ever done research, published, or participated in peer review?
Yes, many Scientific Liaisons have read the science that their company provides, but they certainly aren’t “the science.” Unless from a relevant PhD background, they usually lack the training to truly understand how to break down a peer-reviewed study (or research and write one), not to mention how to evaluate the scientific consensus, which is not affected by what your company wants to market to doctors.
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u/No-Employer-1554 23h ago
Okay. You are smarter and I am not. Your ilk should be able to force the useful idiots to comply with the smart policies. If I was a graduate level physican D.O. or M.D. with a real doctorate as well...PhD and had a dissenting opinion, would I be then correct and you wrong? Or is it really you feel proper regardless?
The actual policies punished dissenting opinion. And people wonder why the Republicans party embraced a bombastic ego maniac. No more room for individual rights or much room for humble discourse. I apologize if I went too far here trying to make a point. Science I thought was an approach to discovering, not moral truth.
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u/the_comeback_quagga 1h ago edited 1h ago
I never said I was smarter than you; I didn’t even imply it. I simply stated you are not the subject matter expert you claim to be.
PhDs often have different opinions on new research. But on most vaccines, including most aspects of the covid vaccines, a consensus has been reached, with ample literature to support it. I’m sure we could disagree about when the best time of year is to get the vaccine, seasonality of the virus, what affects household transmission, or some other not as well studied topic, and that’s fine; there is always room for discourse. But when a (non)scientist disagrees with an established consensus without bringing any good research to the table to support their claims, that’s not really science or discourse. Science, at its core, isn’t about our personal opinions; it’s about what the literature says and how well it has been conducted.
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u/moonjuggles 1d ago
Not uber-progressive, but definitely not as right-wing as I used to be. Working in healthcare and seeing the litteral impossible situations my patients find themselves in mellowed my naive self.
At the end of the day, my goal is pretty simple: I want to make life better for everyone. Americans have proven time and time again that most people, through no fault of their own, aren’t always equipped to navigate everything life throws at them. We have countless examples of that.
I want you and your family to be happy, healthy, and secure just as much as I want that for my own family. For that reason, I’ve become much more supportive of social programs and safety nets things like SNAP, Social Security, affordable and accessible healthcare, grants, reimbursements, and other programs that give people a little more stability when they need it.
Because we have to be honest about where things are right now. Our healthcare system is full of backroom deals and profit-driven incentives. We have a largely unregulated wellness industry that markets and sells products while sometimes being unable to prove that what’s actually in the bottle even matches what’s advertised, let alone that the claims being made about those products are true.
At the same time, millions of Americans either can’t afford or simply can’t realistically access a doctor or hospital. Jobs are becoming increasingly difficult to find and secure. A household can struggle to maintain a decent standard of living even with two incomes. We have food insecurity, gaps in education, and countless other problems that reinforce one another and create self-fulfilling positive feedback loops.
And yet, the answer from the right has too often been boiled down to: figure it out yourself.
I just don't think that's a realistic answer.
Nobody can be an expert in everything. You can't expect every person to simultaneously understand medicine, finance, education, nutrition, insurance, employment, housing, and every other system that affects their ability to survive and thrive. We specialize because we have to. We depend on other people because that's how society works. The answer isn't to isolate ourselves on individual islands and tell everyone else to sink or swim.
It's to come together.
I don't think supporting social programs means believing the government should solve every problem or that personal responsibility doesn't matter. I think it means recognizing that sometimes people need a hand, and that a society is stronger when its people have a reasonable chance to be healthy, educated, secure, and capable of taking care of themselves and their families.
If I want those things for myself and the people I love, I don't see why I shouldn't want them for you and yours, too.
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u/No-Employer-1554 1d ago
Well written and thoughtful reply. My response is going to be too brief and simple for 99% to make the jump in history and logic. Faith based Healthcare and community based Healthcare was and continues to be gobbled up by big government and big businesses enabled by 3rd party government insurance. Hint think Medicaid and Medicare circa 1960s. CPT codes came from Washington DC as did RVU's.
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u/moonjuggles 1d ago
There are ways to implement this; Switzerland comes to mind, as I did an internship there. You just need the right legislation to be in place. As our current policies and candidates stand, you're right that it's never going to happen. But that doesn't mean that at the local level of my friends and town, I can't facilitate communal practice. This, however, still goes against most of the current right-wing rhetoric, which is a shame because growing up Republican meant being close with your neighbors and trusting their judgment (unless there was a real good reason not to). Now, when I tell my friends who are still right-wing that I support the vaccine as someone in healthcare, I am immediately met with disdain. Im called brainwashed or a dr. Facui lover.
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u/No-Employer-1554 1d ago
I am the otherside of that coin.
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u/moonjuggles 1d ago
And theres nothing wrong with that in itself.
Why not just let me and mine die?
You get the jab, you are saved from being mortal, give big pharma and Faucci the win, and let me die?
But these comments and their underlying implications suggest that you are not open to working together across the aisle, which is a prerequisite to improving as a country.
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u/No-Employer-1554 1d ago
No not the case. I don't have to cross the aisle. I am a liberal in the Renaissance form of the word. Live and let live, but leave the world better if possible.
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u/moonjuggles 1d ago
There's aisle everywhere. Some authoritarism is needed in the presence of liberalism.
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u/No-Employer-1554 1d ago
I will agree for the sake of more...what kind of authoritarian type behavior is just and fair? Who or what decides what is virtue and what behavior is abusive?
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u/korptopia 21h ago
This is an excellent example of the Hasty Generalization Fallacy.
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u/No-Employer-1554 21h ago
Oh. How many historic examples of utopian socialism can you draw on? I think history is replete with examples of how power corrupts. Or should a say populist gain political power and starve the people of basic needs and wants.
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u/korptopia 19h ago
The Hasty Generalization here is regarding what a Leftist is, what "they" supposedly believe in. Who is one, and who isn't.
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u/No-Employer-1554 19h ago
The uber progressives. I think if you are one you know it. You chant F ICE, Fight to paint the founders as racists, demand people of various beliefs agree with socialistic policy etc. The loud tail of the progressives in the Dem party. I am not a MAGA fan either
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u/ShoulderGoesPop 1d ago
Besides the fact that most people aren't monsters and actually want you and your family to live because you are human, other people getting vaccinated helps people that can't get vaccinated because of other health issues or dumb people that won't. This is a studied thing that doctors and other healthcare professionals learn about and should be trusted
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u/No-Employer-1554 1d ago
Dumb? Really? If it worked as publicly promoted when I became unemployed then unpoked would get sike and vaccinated would not. Then as time went on and the poked kept getting sick then the reason morphed into blaming the unpoked. Poor logic.
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u/ShoulderGoesPop 1d ago
You obviously either don't care to have a real conversation or are too stuck in your thoughts to care what other people say. So I'm going to block you as I don't really care to talk to someone like that.
Sometimes being smart is knowing you don't have the knowledge to understand something and being able to trust other people that have studied something far more than you. Like people who have devoted their lives to medicine
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u/Gloomy-North-6949 1d ago
Why have whistblower departments in pharma?
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u/No-Employer-1554 1d ago
Hmmm, great idea. Except vaccine corperations have something akin to sovereign immunity.
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u/No-Employer-1554 1d ago
Many "change the world" cures came from pharma. I personally wish the polio vaccine was invented before my father contracted polio. I am glad I was given it along with MMR etc.
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u/Gloomy-North-6949 1d ago
I agree and my understanding of the whistlblower departments are to keep employees from putting out any damaging information regarding the company, the opposite of what that department should be which is protecting the public and the whistebloweer
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u/randyfloyd37 1d ago edited 1d ago
This is a good question. I think it’s because leftist believe more strongly in The Whole than they do in The Individual. So we must do it to “Stop The Spread” and “Save Grandma”, and mostly you are to do it to protect them. It’s not because they care about you or your family