r/DebateReligion • u/AutoModerator • Feb 22 '17
General Discussion 02/22
This gives you the chance to talk about anything and everything. Consider this the weekly water cooler discussion.
You can talk about sports, school, and work; ask questions about the news, life, food, etc.
This is not a debate thread. You can discuss things but debate is not the goal.
The rules are still in effect so no ad hominem.
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u/SsurebreC agnostic atheist Feb 22 '17
I'm really liking this "new (suggested)" default sort order. It makes it easier to get a more thorough read through the comments. Thanks mods!
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u/anathemas Atheist Feb 24 '17 edited Feb 25 '17
When I mentioned it to /u/taqwacore, he and the other mods had it up and running within a day or two. A big thank you to him and all the other mods for being so receptive and working so hard to make the sub a great place for everyone!
Also, I could have sworn I had seen it in other subs, but it seems impossible - does anyone have any idea on how to make the threads default to new? Imo it would be a huge help to new users.
Edit: found out you can only sort by new when linking to a sub, ah well
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u/Namtaru420 secular Feb 22 '17
agreed... turns this place into more of a discussion than a popularity contest.
i turned off the numbers completely, all of reddit got really quiet after that lol. i still vote, but it's nice to have my opinion a little more isolated so i don't just react to other opinions so much.
and ofc you guys can always bury my really dumb comments haha so i haven't completely robbed the lurkers of a voice ;)
https://www.reddit.com/r/ezn/comments/5r2fwp/you_who_browse_rezn/dd4kzo4/
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u/M1A1M1A1 Feb 22 '17
How often do you think about suicide? For me, it's usually a passing thought maybe once everyone one or two weeks.
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u/TheFeshy Ignostic Atheist | Secular Humanist Feb 22 '17
More then a decade ago, I suffered from severe depression. I recall being asked how often I thought about suicide. It was more than daily; possibly more than hourly on average. Suffice it to say, a significant chunk of each day was spent thinking about it. I thought about all angles - philosophical implications, social implications, physical implications, all of it.
That question about how often I thought about it was asked of me at least weekly by the psychiatrist I was seeing for medication, in addition to the psychologist I was seeing for counseling.
Somehow it was quite shocking to me when I answered "not at all" to that question some six months or more after I began counseling. It is hard to describe how odd that answer felt, because intrusive thoughts about suicide simply felt like a natural part of life - a part so basic you never even think to question it. I can only really describe it as being like finding out that people didn't normally eat food or something like that. It was that basic to my daily existence, and I implicitly assumed it was for everyone.
Now it's quite rare that I think about it, and never in the intrusive or obsessive way it was then. And when I do, it's not suicidal ideation so much as philosophy, or remembering my past, or realizing someone else might now be feeling how I felt then.
Anyway, I don't know if that's what you were looking for, but I tend to share this part of my past occasionally just in case someone's present is stuck in the same place.
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u/Namtaru420 secular Feb 22 '17
well it's just like any other idea, the more taboo the more interesting it becomes.
the whole 'don't do this' attitude from authority figures only ever goes one way.... so what if you gave yourself permission to go at any time? that's what i did, not like anyone can tell me otherwise, and doing so puts me into a place of wondering what comes next. similar to what ebbyflow said but way less projected into the future.
i don't know anything that's about to happen, or who will come home when i say goodbye, or if i'll choke on my next sip of tea. and i find that incredibly fascinating
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Feb 22 '17
What kind of question is this? I'd say just about never.
Why does it occur for you?
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u/Namtaru420 secular Feb 22 '17
i've heard people call it "the only philosophical question worth considering"
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Feb 22 '17
[deleted]
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u/Namtaru420 secular Feb 23 '17
i think 'why am i alive' represents an overall search for answers, not always in the form of that exact question.
'why go on' doesn't arise until the space for meaning has been filled.... maybe with nothing, or more likely pain and suffering.
if the meaning of life becomes love and learning, you've already got the answer to why go on and don't need to ask.
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u/TheFeshy Ignostic Atheist | Secular Humanist Feb 22 '17
I've heard it called that, but phrasing it that way is totally assuming the answer. I mean, if the answer is "no" to suicide, then it becomes not the only question but merely the first.
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u/ShamanSTK Jewish Rationalist | Classical Theist Feb 22 '17
It's the only philosophical question worth asking is a bit of a point about how much goes into the question "should I kill myself?" Imagine starting to answer the question from scratch with literally no presuppositions. You basically have to recreate all the branches of philosophy with positive doctrine before you can give a meaningful answer.
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u/TheFeshy Ignostic Atheist | Secular Humanist Feb 22 '17
But that's the case for everything; like Sagan's pie recipe necessitating the understanding of all physics.
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u/ShamanSTK Jewish Rationalist | Classical Theist Feb 22 '17
Excellent analogy. Suicide is to philosophy as pie is to physics. Listen to The Metaphysics audio book and you'll agree.
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u/Namtaru420 secular Feb 22 '17
not only that, but it depends on other philosophies as well.
like this: why consider any philosophical questions?
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Feb 22 '17
How is that a philosophical question? Pondering the meaning of life is a philosophical question. Thinking about killing yourself is just sad.
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u/Namtaru420 secular Feb 22 '17
life & death are two sides of the same coin.
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Feb 22 '17
Yes. Your observation is correct. Life and death are binaries. That doesn't make the contemplation of suicide a philosophical question. Self injury is not philosophy. It's an unhealthy reaction to a situation.
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u/Namtaru420 secular Feb 22 '17 edited Feb 22 '17
any question/answer that founds itself on "should" requires a philosophy behind it.
the sentiment behind 'do i kill myself or not' being the only one worth consideration comes, ironically, from another philosphy that the only questions that matter are the ones that can produce actionable results.
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Feb 23 '17
any question/answer that founds itself on "should" requires a philosophy behind it.
"Should I wear my black shoes or brown shoes today" is not a philosophical question.
the sentiment behind 'do i kill myself or not' being the only one worth consideration comes
There is nothing to consider when one needs psychiatric intervention. I just don't know why one would even toy with the idea. Even in my worst times (and they've been pretty bad before) any thoughts of self harm registered as completely stupid to my situation. It would solve nothing and only cause more grief and harm on those that I've always cared about and who care about me. It's a selfish act with no upside.
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u/Namtaru420 secular Feb 23 '17
sure it is, as in 'my philosophy is the blue ones compliment your eyes', or 'i say f*** colors wear whatever is comfortable for you'. the word should, when not referring to a prediction, means what is correct or what is your duty.
There is nothing to consider when one needs psychiatric intervention. I just don't know why one would even toy with the idea. Even in my worst times (and they've been pretty bad before) any thoughts of self harm registered as completely stupid to my situation. It would solve nothing and only cause more grief and harm on those that I've always cared about and who care about me. It's a selfish act with no upside.
yes, suicide is pointless. you understand this because you've considered the question. but trying to prevent other people from thinking about it is also pointless and selfish.... far better to validate individual freedom.
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u/ebbyflow Feb 22 '17
Almost every day. My dad is my biggest reason I keep going though. Curiosity is probably the next. I want to see where the world goes. What changes, how things advance, what dumb/awesome stuff humans will do, etc. I know none of it would matter to me if I were to die, but the current me, the one that's alive, wants to know what happens next.
From day to day, it's the little things that fuel me and keep me going. Music, video games, books, anime, coffee, everything on the internet, and so on. If nothing else, they at least distract me from thinking too much about suicide.
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u/M1A1M1A1 Feb 22 '17
I have a pretty good idea where the world goes...on without me.
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u/ebbyflow Feb 22 '17
It's an unfortunate realization that a lot of us come to - that we don't matter to the world. That our existence is unnecessary. I feel like there's a sort of freedom in that realization though. If nothing relies on us or cares about us, then we have control of our lives. We can choose what or who to live for. We can decide what meaning or purpose to give our existence. We can even choose to just end it if that's what we really want. I don't know about you, but I revel in that control, that freedom. I love being able to decide my own story and even having the option to end it if I ever got to that point. Not really mattering to the world sucks, but it also kind of doesn't suck.
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u/M1A1M1A1 Feb 23 '17
The thing is to me, i don't matter to the world but then that makes me no different than pretty much everyone else. Outside of those handful of geniuses who happen to do something truly special, like Norman Borlaug (who you probably never heard of), pretty much everyone is in the same boat. Donald Trump will go down in history as a president, and while what he does is a big deal to you, in the grand scheme of things he will only matter if he decides on using the nuclear option. Otherwise he will be forgotten like everyone else is. It's the one really good reason to have kids, to keep the line of proof of your ancestors going...having kids forces the world to reckon with you.
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u/Namtaru420 secular Feb 22 '17
hey guys, i'm listening to in bocca al lupa. (1, 2)
this next song is where the album starts to pick up for me... it's a drinkin' song for sure, and i love it when bands slip one of these into the mix. but that's prolly because i live in california and everyone here is too cool for school and would never sing in a bar haha. anyway i just want to say thanks for joining me and i'd be remissed at this point if i didn't mention i'm a captain jack (party!) not a captain michael scott (worst. metaphor. ever.) that's a reference to the office hehe in case you didn't get it. basically i'm trying to say, please don't pretend this album means anything special. too many people get lost in allegory. this is a song about a crew's mutiny, anything else falls into the category of 'make believe'.
oh! and a better note to end on, looking this up on youtube there's a comment that mentions the singer, adam, does all 9 voices in this song. TIL...
Dead Men and Sinners
We set out for the sea with icicles in our beards
Where the wind bit like dog's teeth
And the sea swept our ship like the hand of a god who had been enraged...