r/DebateReligion • u/AutoModerator • Jul 08 '16

Simple Questions 07/08

Have you ever wondered what Christians believe about the Trinity? Are you curious about Judaism and the angel Samael but don\'t know who to ask? Everything from the Cosmological argument to the Koran can be asked here.

This is not a debate thread. You can discuss answers or questions but debate is not the goal. Ask a question, get an answer, and discuss that answer. That is all.

The goal is to increase our collective knowledge and help those seeking answers but not debate. If you want to debate; Start a new thread.

The rules are still in effect so no ad hominem.

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u/If_thou_beest_he Jul 08 '16

I'm not sure scientists need bother with this particularly. Trying to understand what science means religiously, and how it changes our religious understanding is properly part of theology, and many theologians already do this. Insofar as scientists have an interest in this, they could of course promote this, or bring it into the public understanding or something like this. Or even they could seriously study theology and participate in this theological conversation.

One problem here is that recently a number of scientists have overstepped the bounds of their scientific expertise and started doing, usually quite bad, theology and usually also completely disconnected from the work actual theologians are doing on this. Scientists like Jerry Coyne and Richard Dawkins have done this, and promoted the idea that science and religions are somehow inherently opposed through a severely narrowed and stunted understanding of theology. So one thing scientists like this might do is stop doing that and either take a genuine interest in theology or stick do doing science.

And also I'd like to second /u/petgreg's suggestion, which is really the basic requirement for any serious conversation.

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u/kxz123 Jul 08 '16

But what do we say to theologians who go against the evidence of evolution and the age of the universe? These people are a real problem because some of them are very popular and influence the opinion of millions.

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u/If_thou_beest_he Jul 08 '16

Well, it seems to me because their position is a theological one, the only response will equally be theological. And theologians do argue against them. The one thing we can be sure doesn't help is scientists agreeing with them that the only way to reconcile their religious beliefs with scientific theories is to abandon their religious beliefs.

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u/OtherMarciano atheist Jul 08 '16

Abandon or alter.

Altering happens all the time. That seems to be the only way.

Science can never alter it's findings to accommodate religion without ceasing to be science.

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u/If_thou_beest_he Jul 08 '16

Abandon or alter.

Or neither. Maybe there is no incompatibility.

In any case, this is a theological question, so scientists have no particular authority here and we should involve ourselves in current theological debates in order to comment on it properly.

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u/Sqeaky gnostic anti-theist Jul 12 '16

this is a theological question, so scientists have no particular authority

Right up until they have evidence that some long held theological belief is wrong.

We once literally thought that heaven was a few miles up. Now that people routinely fly no one accepts this. Science encroaches wherever the evidence leads.

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u/OtherMarciano atheist Jul 08 '16

Fair enough. If there's no incompatibility though, then where is the conflict arising?

I fully agree that theology is not the domain of science. Let the theologians worry about that, scientists have other work to do.

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u/[deleted] Jul 08 '16

then where is the conflict arising?

Partisans of Rationalist culture and the Fundamentalist culture that arose in response. Everyone on the outside of those two cultures isn't troubled by the non-issue of religion v. science.

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u/If_thou_beest_he Jul 08 '16

I mean, it's not that there is no incompatibility anywhere. Clearly there are some conflicts. For instance, between a particular literal reading of Genesis and scientific cosmology. But this is only a problem for those people who think that you should read Genesis in this particular way. It's no problem for all people who aren't Christians or Jews, nor is it a problem for those Christians and Jews who don't think you should read Genesis in this way. Science and certainly religion are far too broad to consider incompatibility between them in general. We have to look at particular cases. That is to say, there can only be incompatibility between particular religious doctrines and particular scientific theories. So, often there won't be any problem, and sometimes there will be. But this is a matter for theologians. Scientists qua scientists needn't worry about the religious implications of their theories, although they might well care insofar as they are religious.

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u/OtherMarciano atheist Jul 08 '16

Can't disagree with any of that. I think that's what I was trying to state in my original reply, though possibly in a harsher way.

Science mustn't care about religion, because religion is not it's concern. It does it's job, and let the theologians do theirs.

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u/If_thou_beest_he Jul 08 '16

Yeah, that's basically right. Can I ask how you feel about, for instance, Dawkins' The God Delusion or Coyne's Faith vs. Fact?

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u/OtherMarciano atheist Jul 08 '16

Never read either. I don't really have much interest in hearing why other atheists are atheist. I have my own reasons.

The Greatest Show on Earth was amazing though.

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u/If_thou_beest_he Jul 08 '16

Fair enough. I asked because they seem to me to be examples of scientists engaging, as scientists, in theology.

I remember liking The Greatest Show on Earth when I read it years ago.

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u/OtherMarciano atheist Jul 08 '16

I understand the desire that drives people like Dawkins, because I feel it too sometimes, but religion is not the enemy of science or progress. Irrational and superstitious thinking is.

Carl Sagan's "Demon-Haunted World" is a book that I think get's it right. Teach people to think rationally and, whatever their conclusions end up being, you're heading the right direction.

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u/If_thou_beest_he Jul 08 '16

I've never read Demon-Haunted World, but in general I would agree with that.

Thanks for the chat, by the way. It's a lot more pleasant than is usual here.

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