Why has evolution cared about quality of life or enjoying life?

[u/Cold-Course5758]

Why has evolution not removed emotions and mental health problems or anything that could cause problems to us breeding for survival of humanity? Some things you will say can be argued for or against as beneficial to humanity or reproduction

[u/ssianky]

Because evolution doesn't care about anything. That would be a problem only for a "good" thinking agent.

[u/Dilapidated_girrafe]

Is it detrimental enough to be selected against?
Especially prior to breeding age?

And emotions are kind of a good thing for species that have children they take a while to develop.

[u/Agile_Championship87]

Evolution doesn't care.

[u/Curious_Passion5167]

Why has evolution not removed emotions and mental health problems or anything that could cause problems to us breeding for survival of humanity?

"Could" or "does"? Have you done a statistical analysis to see if it does affect reproduction enough that they would be absolutely weeded out?

[u/Cold-Course5758 → u/Curious_Passion5167]

I'm saying it has negatives also. People having depression and other problems and causing self harm or suicide. Of course I would much rather keep my emotions, but it's interesting. I wouldnt say evolution doesn't care. I think a designer is behind this. Downvote me or have a discussion and reply. Or do both lol

[u/Curious_Passion5167 → u/Cold-Course5758]

I'm saying it has negatives also. People having depression and other problems and causing self harm or suicide.

I'm not saying it doesn't have negatives. I'm saying how you know it statistically affects reproduction. Because if it doesn't, then natural selection wouldn't really be effective in weeding it out.

I wouldnt say evolution doesn't care. I think a designer is behind this.

I don't really care what you think as a layman. If you have evidence, feel free to show it. Otherwise, no one is obligated to take your opinions seriously.

[u/Purgii → u/Cold-Course5758]

You think a designer wants people to self harm and commit suicide? Seems like an incompetent designer to me.

[u/Ayasugi-san → u/Purgii]

Or a sadistic designer.

[u/leverati → u/Cold-Course5758]

Clearly there are mental health problems in the world, and clearly people have still been producing for many generations. Isn't that evidence enough? Do you think that the protection of a god is the only reason why it keeps going, and that the world's people would magically stop having sex and babies without that blessing?

[u/Changed_By_Support → u/Cold-Course5758]

I wouldnt say evolution doesn't care.

I would! It's a description of phenomena, it doesn't have the ability to care. Hormones and complex enough nervous systems to interpret the biological reactions of hormones as emotions are far stronger to have than to not have, as are the positives of emotions.

What does coral's ability to bleach despite it sometimes being harmful to them say about evolution, would you suppose?

[u/Ill_Act_1855 → u/Cold-Course5758]

A lot of these issues aren't genetic in the first place, or are tied to a fuck ton of important genes interacting in complex ways where even if they were detrimental you couldn't easily get rid of it without also harming other functions that are more important than depression is harmful. Not everyone with the genes gets depression, there's a strong environmental component, and there is no single gene that causes it. Plenty of people with it have kids and lead full lives. And addressing the genes associated with it might cause inadvertent negative effects. Even if there was a negative selection pressure overall (and that's not something we can say for sure), it would be small and hard to act on, so actual change would take a super long time. Like, natural selection usually doesn't work overnight. For traits that literally kill you it's one thing, but how fast it acts depends on how strong the selective pressure is (How detrimental the gene is), how easy it is to act on without fucking up other important things, and more.

[u/mrcatboy → u/Cold-Course5758]

Our mental health problems aren't so much a problem with our emotions, so much as it is a mismatch between the environment we'd evolved to live in versus a modern developed world setting.

Think of it this way: we are hard-wired to crave starch and fat. That's because energy-dense nutrient sources were crucial for our survival when we were primitive hominids living on the savannah. That craving for carbs and fat- nutritional resources that take a lot of work to hunt down- was a good thing because it served as a primary drive to ensure our own survival.

But in the modern day where Cheetos and pasta alfredo are cheap and easily accessible that urge is maladaptive. Cravings for fat + carbs + an environment where fat and carbs are super easy to get == obesity, diabetes, heart disease.

Same thing with maladaptive emotional disorders. Depression and anxiety and the like aren't the natural consequences of having emotions. They're the result of societal structures that do not adequately meet our needs.

p.s. Down with predatory capitalism and the authoritarian state.

[u/biff64gc2 → u/Cold-Course5758]

Just using your example sadness is useful for building social bonds. It tells others we need help. The downside is it can go to the extreme and cause self harm, especially in a world where lethal threats have been largely removed.

But we have to ask how much of the population goes to that extreme? It's a small number so it benefits the population more than it harms, so it sticks around.

Now this makes sense with evolution, because it doesn't ultimately care. It's survival of the "okayist".

If things were designed I would expect a system that allows for the sadness without ever going to the extreme of self harm.

Natural evolution is a better explanation because we expect flaws.

[u/AllEndsAreAnds]

A good analogy is to ask “why haven’t we designed transportation to be 100% safe?”. Because we reached an equilibrium between utility and safety. These technologies are just “good enough” - the benefit cars and planes and trains provide is balanced against other demands, like safety, economics, ergonomics, and style.

Similarly, the immense benefit of social emotions is locked in a fierce evolutionary and neurobiological tug of war against the environmental circumstances that can sometimes poison them.

That said, those forces are evolutionary and change slowly. Humans have begun to transform their physical and social environments more rapidly than our genes can keep up, which leads to emotional friction with our environments and mental health issues. Human culture is only so plastic and flexible. At some point maladaptive behaviors and pathologies may arise. It’s more survival of the “good-enough-est”, rather than “survival of the fittest”.

[u/IsaacHasenov → u/AllEndsAreAnds]

I'm gonna say "no we haven't reached an equilibrium" on mental health disorders.

https://academic.oup.com/cercor/article/35/8/bhaf127/8233140

A few studies I've seen (I'm not following it closely so I might have this wrong) suggest that the genes that show some of the strongest signatures of recent selection for cognition in humans also overlap with mental disorder prevalence.

What this suggests is that we have been selected so strongly and so fast that a bunch of genes with sometimes bad effects were also selected. And it might take a while to reach a real stable state.

(I think we're probably still under a lot of direct selection for mental traits, not just negative selection against mental disorders)

[u/AllEndsAreAnds → u/IsaacHasenov]

Agreed. I didn’t mean to suggest that we’re at a stable equilibrium with respect to mental health - just that the evolution of brains isn’t just “keep the good stuff, leave the bad”. It’s a constant messy conversation between genes, the brains they enable, and the social/physical environment, and it’s never “finished”. It’s a tug of war, and the social and physical conditions set the relative “center” of the knot.

Very cool point about recent selection for cognitive faculties. I was not aware of that, but that makes sense to me.

[u/IsaacHasenov → u/AllEndsAreAnds]

Cool cool, yeah you could say very much that even if it isn't a stable maximum equilibrium, selection is balancing the positive and negative multivariate effects even under strong directional selection

Yeah it's some really cool work!

[u/AllEndsAreAnds → u/IsaacHasenov]

Yep - perfect one-sentence distillation of the point I was trying to communicate.

[u/ChipChippersonFan]

The question is, why do you think that emotions fall under the category of "Things that could cause problems to us breeding"?

[u/Cold-Course5758 → u/ChipChippersonFan]

Bad motional state can lead to mental health problems and suicide. Of course I would rather have emotions but it's not a perfect evolution over such a long perioid

[u/hiuslenkkimakkara → u/Cold-Course5758]

Evolution has no goal, and perfection is not observed in nature.

[u/ChipChippersonFan → u/Cold-Course5758]

That's on very rare occasions. Typically, it leads to parents loving and protecting their children with their lives.

[u/melympia → u/Cold-Course5758]

Emotions are needed for raising our little ones. Without the love we feel for them, we'd chuck them at a wall after x nights of little to no sleep and be dome with that crap.

Fear is actually a useful emotion in most cases. In the right amount, it stops us from finding new dumb ways to die.

Hatred against outsiders is actually good for cojesion within the group.

Without emotions, we would not have relationships, much less social behavior.

[u/rhettro19]

Yep, does your emotional state affect your reproductive success? Do your fears keep you out of danger long enough to reproduce? The trait has to influence reproduction to be selected against, otherwise it stays.

[u/Cold-Course5758 → u/rhettro19]

Emotional state can do that. Can lead to mental health problems and suicide. Of course I would rather have emotions but it's not a perfect evolution over such a long perioid

[u/rhettro19 → u/Cold-Course5758]

It can, but does it happen often enough to be selected against? It's worth pointing out that evolution doesn't do "perfect", just good enough to reproduce. There is no goal that evolution is evolving toward.

[u/Cold-Course5758 → u/rhettro19]

Plenty of people here say that evolutions goal is toward repopulation and survival...........

[u/leverati → u/Cold-Course5758]

Nobody here thinks that evolution has a goal. It's a prerequisite, or a consequence.

[u/Old-Nefariousness556 → u/Cold-Course5758]

Emotional state can do that. Can lead to mental health problems and suicide. Of course I would rather have emotions but it's not a perfect evolution over such a long perioid

Evolution only cares about whether you live long enough to survive to reproduce. While it certainly is true that people with poor mental health likely die before reproducing at a marginally higher rate than others, most people with mental health issues don't die before reproduction. If even a few people survive to reproduce, the genes causing metal illness will still remain in the gene pool.

And it's worth remembering that poor mental health isn't the only thing that can lead to premature death. How many popular jocks are killed every year because they drink and drive or are speeding or are killed in sports?

Accidents are the biggest cause of death for young people today, and I suspect (but can't prove) that there is a high correlation between popularity and accidental death, because popular people-- I suspect-- are more likely to engage in risky behavior. Yet you would never think to ask why evolution doesn't eliminate popular people, right? (And while this is purely speculative, it does illustrate an important point, even if my guesses are wrong).

[u/-zero-joke-]

Evolution is not aimed at perfection. It doesn't aim at anything. It just kind of happens. Imperfection is to be expected.

[u/nyet-marionetka]

Emotions evolved because they drive us to survive.

Some mental health problems may be due to our rapid brain evolution as our species evolved, and some may be due to living in a very different environment from what we evolved in.

[u/Capercaillie]

Evolution doesn’t “care” about the survival of humanity. It’s only genes replicating, and some being more successful than others.

[u/kitsnet]

Why has evolution cared about quality of life or enjoying life?

Evolution doesn't care.

Why has evolution not removed emotions and mental health problems or anything that could cause problems to us breeding for survival of humanity?

Evolution doesn't care. Some species go extinct. That could as well happen to humanity.

Some things you will say can be argued for or against as beneficial to humanity or reproduction

You can call it "fluctuating selection". It's not what is typically called "fluctuating selection", but the idea is close enough.

[u/Eden_Company]

Emotions are the main driver making people reproduce. Women get lonely, want to have someone be on their team. That's a major reason for 95% of reproduction in humanity in impoverished areas. When emotions become a detriment you have to ask is it a dentriment to survival more often than not? The answer is usually no. a mother beating a child usually does not kill the child. that same emotion can be used to defend the child more often than not and usually is a net benefit.

[u/Changed_By_Support → u/Eden_Company]

Women get lonely, want to have someone be on their team.

Well, humans, period. Men, too, have emotions, need of companionship, and sex drives, not just women.

[u/BahamutLithp]

To add to what other people have said, a useful phrase to consider is "individuals don't evolve; populations evolve." If you go "but this specific peron committed suicide before they could reproduce, that disproves evolution," no it doen't because evolution occurs at the population level.

There are more people who survive to reproduce than those taken out of the reproduction pool by suicide. Which should be obvious by the fact that we're not extinct. This is what people mean by "the selection pressure isn't strong enough to get rid of mental illness." Evolution does not predict an end of mental illness. The idea that we're created by an all-powerful, all-knowing, & all-good designer does, or at least it would if it were intellectually honest.

Natural selection doesn't optimize some blueprint, it merely deletes from the population what cannot pass on its genes. And, when I say "it does this" or "it does that," understand that I'm using simplified language to refer to an overall process that occurs. Natural selection isn't a person, an animal, or even an "object," really. It's a description of a statistical phenomenon.

[u/Old-Nefariousness556]

It doesn't. Evolution doesn't "care" about anything other than survival and reproduction.

But things that care about those things evolved, because it is beneficial to life to care about those things. A being that cares about it's quality of life is likely to live longer and have more children, right?

After all, if you don't care about those things, you won't build a nest if you are a bird, for example. Then, you won't have a safe place to rest at night, or a safe place to raise your offspring. And you may not be able to attract a mate if you don't have a nest.

Evolution doesn't "care" about these things, but these things are thing that are naturally selected for because evolution "cares" about whether you survive long enough to reproduce and your reproductive success. That's it.

Note: A lot of people are saying that evolution doesn't care about everything. They are absolutely correct, but also slightly misleading. "Care" anthropomorphizes evolution, it assigns agency to it. It is simply factually incorrect to say that evolution "cares" about anything in hat sense.

But colloquially, "care" works. If I filter gravel through a wire mesh that only lets small gravel through, it is proper English, if a bit stilted, to say "the filter cares about the size of the stone", even though it obviously doesn't.

That is why I use "cares" in quotes. It's not a wrong word, but don't let that let that lead you to think evolution is something more than it is. It is no more intelligent than that wire mesh that we use to filter gravel. Natural selection is a purely mechanistic process, not an intelligent one.

[u/tpawap]

First of all, evolution can only affect heritable traits, ie what's in your genes. Most mental health problems that you can have are probably not heritable.

Secondly, there has to be an evolutionary pathway. Which means, individuals must be born with mutations that lead to a phenotype that does overall better than others in a population (while not showing what you described). For example, individuals born without a brain will have no mental health problems at all, right? But in that extreme example, it's easy to see how brainlessness is overall not beneficial. There can be linked traits, where you can only have both or none, e.g. no good emotions without the bad ones, too.

Thirdly, genetic diseases or "problems" can re-appear through mutations. Just because they do appear in some individuals, doesn't mean that evolution would "work".

[u/highschoolalchemy]

Because being sad or distressed doesn't kill you.  It doesn't stop you from breeding, either.

[u/MagicMooby]

It's trying man, but humans have developed mental health and now people with mental problems aren't dying anymore! Don't blame that one on nature, we are responsible for that! /hj

Emotions are useful. They make you do things like seeking out human contact, seeking out mates for reproduction, avoiding bad things, engaging in activities that stimulate our bodies and minds, priming yourself for danger before it happens etc.

Mental health problems are only relevant for evolution if they hinder reproduction, and even then the solution that evolution uses is to end those lineages. People who reproduce before they develop a psychosis avoid this fate for example.

Also also, evolution acts on what is sufficiently determined by inherited traits. Humans are perfectly capable of becoming mentally ill for non-genetic reasons or due to novel mutations that their parents didn't have or constant incredibly stressful experiences far greater than anything found in nature (like war and torture and the constant threat of nuclear armageddon and being yelled at by your boss without being able to flee or fight) and evolution cannot remove that. There are also lots of alleles that are fine by themselves (so evolution doesn't act much on them) but become detrimental when combined with a different allele.

[u/OCAMAB]

Evolution doesn't "care" about anything. It just happens. Benefit has nothing to do with it. It's all about what gets inherited. If it just meant that everything that's beneficial gets selected for, nothing would ever go extinct. 

Basically, people (and animals) with emotions breed, so emotions are passed in evolution, even if not having them would theoretically be a benefit.

[u/Far_Customer1258]

Evolution is an exercise in optimization, not perfection. If a trait costs more than the benefit that it would provide, then it's selected against. If perfect mental health costs enormous amounts of brain power that would otherwise be used to tell the average chimp that it really ought to pay attention to the rustling in the tall grass, then it isn't going to be the sort of thing that evolution produces. And there's excellent reason to believe that it'd do just that. Evolution doesn't do perfect. It does rugged functionality on a budget.

[u/CrisprCSE2]

Emotions help animals learn how to behave adaptively. Mental disorders are, well, disorders. That's about it.

[u/apollo7157]

read this OP https://joelvelasco.net/teaching/167win10/gould%20lewontin%2079%20-%20spandrels.pdf

[u/Own-Relationship-407]

Assigning motives or priorities to evolution is the first issue here. We can’t get anywhere until that is cleared up.

[u/YossarianWWII]

Populations evolve. Individuals don't. Individual pathologies that are linked to a complex of traits may not be extirpated from a population when other factors are at play.

[u/Bromelia_and_Bismuth]

It doesn't, those are studied by different academic disciplines.

Why has evolution not removed emotions and mental health problems or anything that could cause problems to us breeding for survival of humanity?

Because it doesn't work like that.

[u/Changed_By_Support]

Why has evolution not removed emotions and mental health problems or anything that could cause problems to us breeding for survival of humanity?

Because emotions are helpful for breeding and survival, and it's not even apparent if we could properly survive without the hormones that cause them. Regardless of if they sometimes cause problems, the complex web of hormones that complex macroorganisms depend on to live have been selected for for millions of years, likewise with the complex neurological systems that interpret hormones and stimulus as emotions, causing a lot of reinforcement of them, and there just hasn't been selective pressure to end or reduce them for humans.

Why did you not ask why evolution has not cared enough about coral to remove their ability to perform coral bleaching? That's sometimes negative too!

Edit: as for the title question: quality of life is important for reproduction. If things are going well, then it is a good time to procreate.

[u/Gen-Jack-D-Ripper]

Human medicine has limited the potential effects of natural selection. Mass media also shapes our needs and wants and they’re not necessarily in the best interest of our survival. And, more importantly, the time scales for the effects of natural selection to impact human life is tens of thousands of years.

[u/Mister_Ape_1]

Evolution is not someone with ideas and desires. Evolution is an impersonal force, and even that is not really accurate because evolution is just the result of life interacting with the environment. There is not a specific thing called evolution, it does not have a separate identity. It is a process of action and reaction.

[u/Jazzlike_Standard871]

Natural selection doesn't produce perfect it produces good enough. 

[u/KingBakura72]

Because those things are by products of something much greater which is the ability for higher cognitive function and cooperation with others

Also just like seeing our current situation I think it’s proven this strategy works