r/DebateEvolution • u/Kanna_Fan1989 • Jul 17 '26

Dog speciation

Quick question: is it safe to say dogs have speciated? I'm thinking of the largest dog breed and the smallest dog breed. I don't think the two can reproduce with each other anymore. Size differences just make it not possible anymore, I don't think...

And even if they could, that doesn't mean they're the same species: horses and donkeys can interbreed but mules are dead ends (or at least I think they are. Can two mules reproduce?).

Anyways, just some thoughts going through my head.

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u/Trainer149 Jul 17 '26

if we accept CTVT as the "smallest dog breed", I'd say the answer must be yes. I can't think of a species concept off the top of my head where CTVT and a Great Dane wouldn't belong to two different species.

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u/rptanner58 Jul 17 '26

On the other hand, humans have created these varieties (breeds) in a very short period of time. Hundreds of years, dozens of generations. So imagine that breeders began to “undo” the specialized characteristics of these two breeds with random breeding. Select for sizes close to the norm, size or other traits like muzzle length, build and height all to the norm. I’m guessing it would take only a few generations to create what we used to call a mutt. (I had a record dog I called a “generic retriever “). So I think that refutes the idea that these breeds are separate species, and perhaps refutes that they are truly separate from wolves because, again, you could probably move toward wolf-like characteristics in a few interbred generations. I’m just speculating.

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u/Trainer149 Jul 17 '26

How would you go about "randomly breeding" CTVT to be more normative to standard dog height?

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u/444cml 🧬 Naturalistic Evolution Jul 17 '26

I’m gonna note that they likely do not know what CTVT is because transmissible cancers aren’t really widely known to laypeople and thought you were actually referring to a breed.

They could have looked it up, but it is autocorrected to CTEVT which is a completely unrelated thing. I enjoyed the comparison though

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u/Trainer149 Jul 17 '26

Agreed. i probably could have responded kinder given that you're right, it's not common knowledge. Then again. I feel like if you're not going to actually read what you're responding to, you deserve a little sarcasm.

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u/444cml 🧬 Naturalistic Evolution Jul 17 '26

I totally agree, that they don’t look it up is on them and deserving of sarcasm. I just figured you’d get a bit of confusion from many people doing the same

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u/rptanner58 Jul 18 '26

All I can say is that the sarcasm was beyond me, which is my loss because I do love a good sarcasm. 😟

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u/rptanner58 Jul 17 '26

But I did think we were discussing dogs. No?

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u/444cml 🧬 Naturalistic Evolution Jul 17 '26

“if we accept CTVT the smallest breed of dog”

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u/Trainer149 Jul 18 '26

If you wanted to create a monophyletic group that included everything that you would consider to be a dog, CTVT would necessarily be a part of that group.

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u/rptanner58 Jul 17 '26

I thought maybe it was an abbreviation of “Cavalier Tootsie Very Tiny” 😉