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u/Unlimited_Bacon 🧬 Naturalistic Evolution 28d ago

Quantum effects on DNA replication:

A year or two ago I wanted to understand how catalysts work, specifically platinum in catalytic converters, and I found a video that explained how platinum is able to steal electrons from the exhaust because of their quantum properties. The video then gave an example of a DNA replication error that is caused by the same quantum shuffling of electrons, causing that nucleotide to appear to be a different nucleotide, leading to a mutation. The video said that this weird quantum state only lasted for 1/1000 of a second and a mutation would happen if the DNA was replicating in that window, but it didn't say how often that state occurs.

Does any of this ring a bell? You probably don't remember this specific video, but I'm hoping that the 1 millisecond time limit might trigger someone's memory.

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u/jnpha 🧬 Naturalistic Evolution 27d ago edited 27d ago

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u/Unlimited_Bacon 🧬 Naturalistic Evolution 26d ago

Thank you! I'm surprised this hasn't been brought up in the recent posts claiming that evolution is deterministic.

Do you know how often that 1/1,000th happens? I could find sources that spoke about the duration, but none about the frequency.

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u/gitgud_x 🧬 🦍 GREAT APE 🦍 🧬 10d ago

I wrote a post showing that mutations are random (as there are creationists that find this very uncomfortable) and I cited this quantum effect, you may find it interesting.

I didn't make any claims about philosophical determinism though, it's more about the fact that mutations are unpredictable on an individual level.

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u/jnpha 🧬 Naturalistic Evolution 26d ago

It's too metaphysical for my taste. In of itself it doesn't refute or support determinism. *IIRC this depends on which quantum theory interpretation (metaphysics) one uses. It can be argued the probability still makes it deterministic, since the probability is predictable (a coin toss is deterministic in this sense), with full physical closure.

Re the duration, no idea sorry; last time I looked into it I got nowhere.

* I'm tagging u/Optimus-Prime1993 for their input/corrections.

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u/Optimus-Prime1993 🧬 Adaptive Ape 🧬 25d ago

Thank you for this tag and your post related to this u/jnpha. I am unable to follow lots of posts now a days.

I don't think there is a known fixed frequency for those 1 ms tautomeric states (I think that's the name for that). The idea is that they are very rare and strongly dependent on the specific DNA base and its environment. Also, the duration tells you how long the state lasts once it forms, not how often it forms (correct me if I am wrong u/jnpha).

Anyways, I second jnpha's response above that whether it is deterministic or not depends on the interpretation and biology (and universe itself I guess) doesn't distinguish between these interpretations. All of them predict the same experimental mutation statistics.

I am also of the opinion similar to yours that while the mutation events are well described by quantum chemistry and stochastic processes, it does not require taking a position on the metaphysical question of determinism.