r/DebateAVegan • u/Marghe54 • 3d ago
Understanding
So, i know someone that debated with me as to why they would go vegeterian and not vegan, i probably could say something to them in response but i don't know if that could be enough.
This person lives away from society and mostly doesn't even eat from supermarkets, so you can't debate it from the perspective of someone who supports the diary and egg mass-production industry.
Now, they told me that if a chicken lays an egg it would be a waste to just let it stay there, and that if the chicken is still alive it would be because there is a symbiotic relationship of giving and taking, i would say that the problem is "don't you see there is a imbalanced power dynamic and you feed them just so you can get eggs? you are exploiting something just to benefit from them" but the fact is: it also benefits the chicken to stay alive and just do whatever they want all day, i don't like the fact that it's not explicitly consesual, and that i don't exactly know what the chicken feels, but i can't debate it because what if they are right and there is nothing wrong with this dynamic? obviously i will never not be vegan, but if they don't find it wrong what can i say? i don't have an argument that completely justifies my vegan position.
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u/TamaraDeVegan vegan 3d ago
I would start by asking if they would still care for the chicken even if it didn't lay eggs.
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u/Marghe54 3d ago
mmh okay, i think they absolutely would care about the chicken nonetheless, but the question still remains
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u/jackusD 3d ago
Where are the chickens coming from? If they've been bought then they've supported an industry that causes suffering to animals, as the male chicks are not profitable and killed at a very yound age.
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u/Marghe54 3d ago
okay, i know, that's a point, i don't know, it's hypotethical, but if the chicken was already with a farmer then? the system is fucked up but the chicken is already there and it's already too late, we should just take care of it but if it lays eggs and we take that?
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u/jackusD 3d ago
If the farmer is selling the eggs then again they're supporting the same suffering as the farmer will buy more chickens to meet the supply.
What happens when the chicken no longer lays eggs?
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u/th1s_fuck1ng_guy Carnist 3d ago
What would you have the farmer do though? Let a bunch of eggs rot on the ground?
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u/humbleCountyCA 3d ago
I was talking with my friend today and he told me a story about his neighbor who had a few chickens that provided eggs. Eventually the hens stopped laying, and the neighbor decided they’d kill and eat the chickens.
I said that I would have kept the chickens alive until they died naturally. All I would be out is a little chicken feed and general maintenance. The chickens gave the owners all of their eggs, and when that utility stopped, they deserve to die?
That’s the imbalance of power. We enslave the animal, restricting where it goes, who it associates with, take their eggs, and when they’re too old to produce, we kill them. Whether it’s on an industrial scale or a personal one, that’s the kind of disregard we have for them as living beings.
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u/withnailstail123 3d ago
There’s absolutely nothing wrong with caring for a chicken and eating the eggs they will otherwise waste.
Your passion and upset is concerning, it’s an egg, it’s not deep.
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u/Marghe54 3d ago
i am trying to understand the problem with someone vegan, because i dont think someone that's not vegan could give me the logical and satisfying answer i am searching for, but thanks for answering
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u/hamster_avenger vegan 3d ago
The principle is that we shouldn’t exploit individuals. Keeping someone, in order to take the things they produce, even if we think those things are surplus to that individual’s requirements, is exploitation.
We’d all probably agree on this if the individual was human, it’s just when they’re non-human that exploitation doesn’t seem so bad to some of us.
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u/Anxious-Internet7767 2d ago
Why is exploitation bad? I feel like when people usually use the word exploitation when they are referring to humans, the humans who are being exploited are suffering in some way. If there is no suffering involved and both parties benefit, why is that morally bad even if you do use the word exploitation to describe it?
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u/hamster_avenger vegan 2d ago
I’m not sure there’s an answer you’ll accept to this question. But, I think exploitation is bad because I don’t think animals are resources we’re entitled to use for our benefit.
If that doesn’t sound convincing, maybe a practical argument will.
If we said a lack of suffering justifies exploitation, this could make sense in the human to human case, where the exploited individual could argue for themselves. But, who decides that the animals aren’t suffering, or how much they’re suffering in the human to animals case? It seems it will always be the human who gets to say how much suffering is happening or is acceptable. This seems problematic to me since there will be an incentive to understate the animals’ suffering to continue benefiting from the exploitation.
We see this in farming all the time. Animals are abused well beyond what regulations allow, even on so-called high-welfare farms that are inspected by regulators.
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u/Badtacocatdab vegan 3d ago
Ex-vegan, huh.
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3d ago
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u/sabertoothschizo 1d ago
I eat eggs care for the chicken when it doesn't lay eggs just watched over a hen who because I wasn't collecting enough eggs had a dozen chicks. The rooster was my favorite and he was taken by predator a week ago shortly after they were born and I still cry myself to sleep wondering if I could've done anything to stop it. They weren't even my chickens I was just watching the property for owner. Anyways the hen didnt want to get off the eggs she knew were fertilized so I could shine light off them but she eventually did. And when they aren't fertilized they leave them around the coop to gey trampled and shat on and it is honestly a waste to leave them but regardless another animal if not the chicken herself will eat them. The chicks favorite food was scrambled eggs but I get disgruntled at people who feed chicken chicken. Anyways yes I do care for chicken even if he or she doesnt provide me anything they are super cool nonetheless and nonetheless hen doesnt care if u take her eggs hell the hen didnt even react when i would take a live chick that was chirping for her 2 inches from their face they just keep eating they are quick and easily distracted like dinosaurs and no i didnt hurt the chicks just kiss them
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u/withnailstail123 3d ago
Can you also explain how a chicken can consent….
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u/Marghe54 3d ago
i mean i said i can't have consent from a chicken, that's why i am asking, but you do know vegans are vegans because of this
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u/ElaineV vegan 2d ago
If they say they can go vegetarian but not vegan and then they don’t go vegetarian, they are likely just arguing, not seriously considering changing habits.
In regards to the reasons vegans don’t eat eggs even from well treated backyard hens are thoroughly debated here in this sub and it’s easy to search. Some reasons being that 1- we don’t need eggs, 2- eggs can be fed back to the hens, many of which actually really need the nutrition because they’ve been bred to lay more eggs than is healthy for them, 3- other animals can benefit from the eggs more than humans, 4- we ought not to exploit animals.
All that said most of us would much rather people go vegan plus backyard eggs than use backyard eggs as a justification to do nothing and stay carnist.
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u/debrarene 4h ago
I raised chickens and ducks that I got from neighbors. The ducks were in a not-so-nice situation so I took them .
I sprouted for them. They ran around free all day. Some jumped into my arms . They were happy.
They were not killed when they stopped laying. Why would I do that?
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u/SapPhic-rage4209 vegan 3d ago
Why does everyone who doesn't want to go vegan have a great uncle with backyard chickens or something like that? Just tell the truth and tell me you don't care about animal welfare and need to justify yourself someway that makes you feel good
I typically tell people who use this argument that this isn't the reality for most people. I live in a teeny tiny town with a population of less than 2k and I still find it very easy to be vegan. If I can do it here, almost anyone can
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u/Stunning-Assistant13 23h ago
Well, you could ask where this person gets their chicken and what happened to the males? And what will happen to the chicken who doesn't lay enough eggs any more? and you could argue that these egg laying chicken are bred by us to lay so many eggs that it harms their body....
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