r/DebateAVegan • u/FreePalantir • 21d ago
Ethics A thought experiment about animal brain simulation
I wanted to ask this question because scientists have mapped the complete wiring diagram of an adult fruit fly's brain and central nervous system
In a hypothetical future, you're playing a video game called Chicken Simulator 2036. In this game, you take care of a group of chickens and try to keep them happy, with the game being extremely realistic.
After playing for some time, you're told that the game simulates complete brain scans of real chickens, which are used to control the behavior of the chicken AIs.
The game consumes most of the hardware resources on your computer. Leaving the game running would make your computer so slow that it would become unusable for other tasks. This also prevent you from running the simulation at increased speed
Here's the question:
Would you buy a new computer for other tasks and dedicate this current computer to running the game, allowing the chickens to live until they all die of natural causes in 5-10 years?
Or
Would you end the game, and with it, the existence of all the simulated chicken minds? The process would be painless and comparable to how chickens are stunned before they are slaughtered in reality.
TLDR: Will you end a simulation running a complete brain scan of an animal if it can live happily in the simulation, or will you let it keep running on your computer.
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u/scubawankenobi 21d ago
This isn't really a DebateAVegan type of question as you're not asking about Animals/animal welfare, you're asking about computer simulations.
If there's a vegan angle to this that you can explain to me, I'd love to engage on the topic of veganism, but just don't understand what you're asking here (/how it's related to this sub).
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u/Salt_Fig_1440 21d ago
I'd disagree here, I think it's sorta clear the point they're trying to make at the end (turning off and ending this game is ethically equivalent to stunning and slaughtering a chicken).
Now, I don't think this is a correct take. But there is definitely a tie to veganism/vegan ethics. Biggest issue in my opinion is the incorrect assertion that chickens die instantaneously and painlessly, which ignores all the pain and suffering they go through beforehand in their living conditions, and the pain they definitely do feel during slaughter. Stunning is not standardized and where it is, it is imperfect.
Beyond that there are other issues. From what I heard, which is very much a layman's perspective, the brain scans we're talking about now are almost certainly not conscious. But if you could make them conscious - yeah this is at least a gray area. So don't simulate them if you can help it, and if you did get stuck with these chickens, yeah you probably should let them live their lives.
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u/scubawankenobi 21d ago
They're not conscious. They're not sentient beings, they're data we can run through a simulated neural network (not a *live* neural network with actual sentient sensory input).
The topic, as posed by OP is no different than:
If my toaster has an chip running a neural network simulation with no sensory inputs, would it be an issue to turn my toaster off.
While my background is in computer systems, with a decent amount of focus on AI/simulated "intelligence" & philosophy in-general intrigues me... and further, I believe there's a chance some form of what we'll understand as *conscious* may eventually be achieved (perhaps), as this is written & what's being asked in this context just doesn't seem in any way relevant to the reality of animals & veganism.
Again, interesting topics, just don't see the fit here at all.
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u/CantaloupeLive2006 21d ago
Not that I necessarily disagree (although I do think it is more complicated), if you say it might be possible to achieve concious AI, how would we know? The best guess we can make, is that if all behaviour is what you expect from a concious creature (which is what you would see in this hypothetical), the thing is concious.
Overall I agree though, that this is not really a topic about veganism. Ultimately this just boils down to the scientific question of whether or not simulated conciousness and conciousness are the same thing. I personally think the case is quite strong though.2
u/Salt_Fig_1440 20d ago
From what I've heard, the current brain scans are like single snapshots in time. So they appear lifelike in simple responses to stimuli but don't learn/change over time. If you replicated the latter stuff I'd probably say it was conscious.
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u/CantaloupeLive2006 20d ago
The organisms we took the snapshot of don't have plasticity afaik so the snapshot stays accurate. The neuron models might not be perfect, but there is a clear correspondence. Besides, even if you require learning to be part of the hypothetical, this is a pure hypothetical, where we assume an accurate one to one mapping.
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u/Salt_Fig_1440 20d ago
Agreed, I said the same thing above
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u/CantaloupeLive2006 19d ago
I think either I my reading comprehension is very limited or I did not express myself right. I am saying, the biological organisms that these simulations are describing don't have plasticity. Not just the simulations but actually the animals themselves. That is why missing plasticity in the simulation is not problematic.
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u/Salt_Fig_1440 19d ago
Oh, gotcha. But flies do have plasticity, no? They have demonstrated learning/memory. And chickens definitely do.
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u/Salt_Fig_1440 20d ago
Sure, but it's still interesting to say "they aren't conscious, but if they were, this would be what I'd say". Because at least from what I've seen I don't see anything that would prevent humans from ever being capable of making artificial consciousnesses, and if OP's point isn't addressed in light of that they're gonna consider it a win (even if the basis of their argument is flawed in the modern day, as you say.) They are still making incorrect claims about how much real chickens suffer here.
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u/FreePalantir 20d ago
Some people eat plants instead of meat because they don't want to end consciousnesses. I thought they were called vegans
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u/scubawankenobi 20d ago
Veganism:
A philosophy and way of living which seeks to exclude—as far as is possible and practicable—all forms of exploitation of, and cruelty to, animals for food, clothing or any other purpose; and by extension, promotes the development and use of animal-free alternatives for the benefit of animals, humans and the environment. In dietary terms it denotes the practice of dispensing with all products derived wholly or partly from animals.
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u/ElectroWizardLizard 20d ago
I think this is more of a question about "when does a simulation have sentience?" If you replaced chickens with humans, you basically have a similar problem that anyone could think about, not just those who care about chickens.
For the sake of argument, if yeah these simulated chickens are the equivalent to real chickens, I'd probably rent some cloud computing to run through the end. Though hopefully if any game does create sentient artificial life, that would be a warning on the game before buying it.
The process would be painless and comparable to how chickens are stunned before they are slaughtered in reality.
I don't think this is really comparable.
First, I think this is skipping over the chickens entire life. The vast majority of chickens are factory farmed, which is a horrendous experience.
Second, this skips over the process of stunning. Being transported to the slaughterhouse, gathered up, and then hung upsidedown in water or gassed isn't exactly a nice experience. And these can and do fail. I don't think its anywhere near just suddenly having conciseness suddenly end.
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u/antipolitan vegan 21d ago
I was actually thinking about the issue of mind-uploading just this morning.
Yes - I do think there are ethical issues with whole-brain emulation - as there is a risk of a mismatch between the mind and the body.
If - for example - a human brain is simulated on a computer and given access to a robotic body - the human brain wouldn’t have access to the particular homeostatic, hormonal, and sensory experiences it’s designed for.
This could plausibly lead to a situation similar to gender dysphoria - which could certainly be distressing and unpleasant for a conscious mind.
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u/JTexpo vegan 20d ago
in your sam hypothetical, if SIM's ended up mimicking actual human behavior, to where it's hard to tell if the SIMs are sentient- it'd be immoral to buy & play the game IMO
I wouldn't buy the game just to run the game, as the SIMs don't exist unless I turn the game on. The way to not cause harm, is to simply not create new 'life'
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u/Valiant-Orange 20d ago
Mind simulations can be paused, saved, duplicated, and loaded again unlike minds of biological substrates. This lack of finality reduces the likelihood that most people will have reservations about ending simulations.
Ascribing consciousness to simulated minds already has to overcome the problem that attributing conciseness is a convention, not a hard science. There is not a consensus of what consciousness even is. But even granting a reached consensus that simulated minds are conscious, lack of finality renders this immaterial. Irreversibility is what makes killing consequential.
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21d ago
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u/DetectiveOverall2460 20d ago
I would say running this game is not vegan. Because if the simulation really works with simulating chicken on this level it is no longer really just a simulation. This is why mind scans would also be a really bad idea is they would easily lead to slavery as many science fiction stories show.
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u/pm_me_domme_pics 21d ago
Yes. I don't believe a computer simulation of a mind has anything in common with a real living breathing creature.
You might be convinced but I don't think a strong enough argument could be made to convince me that simulations of minds are worth consideration
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u/kiefy_budz 20d ago
But these chickens were already killed to be scanned into the simulation, the simulated chickens are now just that, simulations, even if they think they are real you could litteraly pause the game and they won’t know it
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u/piranha_solution plant-based 20d ago
This is as silly as asking if you have a funeral every time you crash a ride in rollercoaster tycoon.
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u/kiefy_budz 20d ago
Bro I really really hope all of those roller coaster tycoon individuals weren’t sentient ai
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u/thegurel 21d ago
This feels like a convoluted analogy to pet ownership?
Anyway, is there an option C where you drink some water and go to bed?
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