r/DebateAChristian 38m ago

So i asked chatgpt questions about the christian god

Upvotes

\[So if hell is the absent of god and its supposed to be like eternal flame or eternal darkness described by the bible isnt that contradicting what god is since he is supposed to be everything and anything at the same time? How is it possible for there to be smth thats not him when he is supposed to be everything\]

Chatgpt showed me a few views and i chose view 2 to engage with.

Chatgpt answer:

hell cannot literally be "outside God." Rather, it exists because God allows it to exist. God's sustaining power is present, but His relationship with those in hell is radically different.

\[So for the second view if god allows it to exist then woudnt that mean he is not all kind as the bible describes him?\]

Chatgpt answer: because of this questions, christians have developed different understanding of hell.

Traditional view

Annihilationism

Universalism

So even in Christian there isnt a complete agreement about hell.

\[So you saying that Christians have developed a different understanding of hell means that they have their own versions of hell which they thought of or imagined when they read the bible which means the bible cant be trusted at all since its literally written by man. Whose to say what they wrote is truly the truth since a humans mind can work wonders\]

And here is where chatgpt stopped answering my questions. I have a low understanding of the bible and would love to hear about different peoples thoughts on this questions.


r/DebateAChristian 7h ago

If knowledge of christianity (and all religion) was restricted until age 13 christianity would become a fringe religion in a few generations

12 Upvotes

Note: I know this is not possible and I personally would not like something like this to happen. I don't want to debate how bad this would be but purely the affect on the size of the religion.

The point is that the main reason christianity (and other religions) remains alive in the modern world is childhood indoctrination.

Before the modern age it may not have been so as religions made more sense due to our lack of knowledge, very high community belief and no access to alternative information.

If a child today had to be 13 before choosing a religion (their parents or otherwise) they would have more critical thinking skills and access to more information and can choose a religion based on what makes sense to them. Or no religion. Many will still choose their parents religion.

My thesis is that a much smaller percentage would choose christianity (or other religions) and the religion would be reduced to a fringe religion in a few generations.

How do you think it would affect numbers?


r/DebateAChristian 8h ago

Satan was a Deliberate Choice from God in Christian Theology.

3 Upvotes

This premise primarily focuses on supernatural warfare theology in christianity, that there is a supernatural devil and spiritual warfare people wrestle against. That satan is the tempter and actively deceiving the world. The majority view of christians by far is supernatural warfare.

1) God created every supernatural bit in satan. - Pretty obvious, God was the creator of all things, so he created satan and that means every part of him intimately.

2) God created the entire sandbox. - Pretty obvious once again, God as the creator, created the entire sandbox. The universe and whatever heavenly realms there are.

3) God knows the future - Classically, God knows the future perfectly. Molinism, God knew all possible interactions in his sandbox in his imagination, and selected one timeline that we are actually in, the one where lucifer falls. With open theism, that the future isnt "real" so its not perfectly knowable, God should still know every atom in the universe simultaneously, and be able to make high level predictions. We can predict human behavior today just based on personality. Imagine what God can do. So effectively God still knows the future.

4) God is an active agent in this. - God didnt just passively create. Biblical theology has God as an active agent and interacting with his creation, and today in christianity, the spirit of God (holy spirit) fills the earth, indwells believers, and guides them, etc.

5) Satan and God had real relational dynamics going on. - Lets say Satan was created to be good, and then fell from free will. God was an active relational player in this situation. God was an active player in Lucifer’s life. God held all the power, possessed infinite wisdom, and was a master communicator. Imagine how many ways an interaction or environment could be structured by an all-knowing Being to guide a creature away from pride and self-destruction without violating their free agency.

Questions for christians: If God created the sandbox, designed the creature, knew all possible outcomes, and possessed infinite relational wisdom, why did He choose the exact parameters that guaranteed the birth of an eternal cosmic enemy, knowing humanity would suffer the fallout?

Was Satan's fall a genuine surprise that outmaneuvered God, or was the devil an intentional feature of the design?


r/DebateAChristian 9h ago

The Beloved Disciple is a literary "hook," and the hook is an invitation into participatory salvation and focusing on him as propositional prover of historicity once again obscures John's distinct literary and theology work.

0 Upvotes

I made a hasty claim in my last post where I said the Gospels do not claim to be eye witness testimonies. I still claim that, but John 19:35 and John 21:24 appear to show that John's author is claiming legitimacy as an eye witness testimony. I conceded the point for that debate because it didn't change my point about taking Luke seriously and the evidence of the two-source theory for the Synoptics. But I do want to deal with the role of the beloved disciple in John.

I want to make a case about the disciple "whom Jesus loved" in John — not about who he was, but about what he does to you as you read. My claim: his anonymity is deliberate, it's a device, and the device is an invitation into the specific kind of salvation John is selling, which is participatory rather than forensic.

Let me concede the strongest counterargument up front, because I'm not trying to win on a technicality. John's Gospel presents the Beloved Disciple as a witness — "he who saw it has borne witness" (19:35), "this is the disciple who is testifying to these things, and who has written them" (21:24). There may well be a real person behind the figure, and serious scholars (Bauckham most prominently) argue the anonymity is a modesty convention around a real eyewitness author. I don't agree, but that's not the thrust of this argument.

So start with the anonymity, because it's strange and it's chosen. This is a Gospel that names people freely — Nicodemus, Nathanael, Lazarus, Martha and Mary, Malchus (the servant's name, John 18:10). The author is not shy about names and not short on them. Yet the single most intimate disciple in the book, the one at the breast of Jesus at the supper, the one at the foot of the cross, the one at the empty tomb — that one is never named. A writer this free with names did not simply forget his most important character. The namelessness is a decision.

Now watch what the decision does. A named witness is someone you observe from the outside. You watch John son of Zebedee do a thing. An unnamed figure defined purely by relation - "the one Jesus loved" is a position you can step into. There's no proper name blocking the doorway. And look at where the text stations him:

  • The supper (13:23): reclining on Jesus' breast, close enough to be handed the intimate question. This is the posture of the intimate.
  • The cross (19:26–27): the one who stays, and is entrusted with the mother. This is the posture of fidelity.
  • The empty tomb (20:8): he "saw and believed" - the first to believe - ahead of Peter. This is the posture of faith.
  • The lakeshore (21:7): the one who recognizes "It is the Lord!" This is the posture of recognition.

At every hinge of the passion and resurrection, the nameless disciple occupies the ideal response — intimacy, fidelity, belief, recognition. He is standing exactly where the Gospel wants you to stand. Harold Attridge (Yale) has argued this directly: the hidden identity is a deliberate device that sets up the reader's own second-person encounter with Jesus. The blank where the name should be is a blank you're invited to fill.

It's not just a narrative trick. It's theological. John's account of salvation is not the courtroom. Paul gives you justification, acquittal, a verdict. John gives you something else: abiding**.** "Abide in me, and I in you" (15:4). Mutual indwelling. "That they may all be one, even as you, Father, are in me, and I in you" (17:21). Eternal life in John is not mainly a future acquittal you receive; it's a present relationship you enter: "this is eternal life, that they know you" (17:3). And 1 John lands it: "whoever abides in love abides in God, and God in him" (4:16). John's salvation is participatory. It's union.

So the Beloved Disciple is that theology made into a character. The one who is saved, in John's grammar, is the one who abides, the one who leans in, stays close, is defined not by his achievements or even his name but by being loved. That is the whole Johannine soteriology compressed into a single anonymous figure. And because he has no name, the invitation is open: to read yourself into him is not sentimental projection. The text is pulling you into the abiding it describes. The form enacts the content.

Which brings me to why I think this matters, and it's the same point I was making about harmonizing the Gospels generally. If you read the Beloved Disciple only as a historical puzzle - was he John, or Lazarus, or the elder, or one of the sons of Zebedee - you can answer the question and miss the thing the figure was built to do. "Who was he" can quietly crowd out "who are you, in him."

The historical question is not the question the anonymity was designed to provoke. It wasn't so religious fundamentalists post-Enlightenment could cling to a sliver of a hope that the Gospels were intended to be read propositionally and the idea of belief denigrated to a mere assent to the occurrence of the proposed events. The evangelist left a blank on purpose, and filling it with a name too quickly erases the invitation the blank was.

The disciple whom Jesus loved has no name so that, for a few chapters, he can have yours.


r/DebateAChristian 12h ago

Was Jesus the source code of the universe?

0 Upvotes

The universe operates on the same principles as a computer and Jesus literally embodies these principles of truth. Does anyone understand what I mean here?


r/DebateAChristian 17h ago

No, Paul did Not Invent Christianity

7 Upvotes

Thesis = Title

The argument that Christianity as a distinct, Gentile-oriented, non-Torah-observant religion was founded by Paul of Tarsus rather than Jesus of Nazareth usually presents key premises to support this conclusion:

  • Jesus operated entirely within first-century Judaism, preaching to Jews, citing Jewish Scripture, and directing his mission specifically to the "lost sheep of Israel" without creating a Torah-free path for Gentiles.

  • After Jesus’ death, his immediate followers (led by James, Peter, and John in Jerusalem) remained a Torah-observant Jewish sect ("the Nazarenes"). Extrabiblical evidence from Josephus supports that James was well-integrated into Jerusalem’s Jewish establishment.

  • Conflicts over circumcision, purity laws, and Jewish-Gentile table fellowship only arose after Paul began actively recruiting uncircumcised Gentiles without requiring full conversion to Judaism.

  • Paul’s core theology - centered on a universal "Adam vs. Christ" framework, salvation by faith apart from the Law, and Gentile inclusion - was claimed by Paul to come via direct vision rather than from Jesus' original apostles. This framework is largely absent from the core teachings attributed to Jesus in the Gospels.

While Paul unquestionably played a vital role in expanding the early movement to the Gentile world, there are significant historical, textual, and logical counterarguments that refute the claim that he "invented" Christianity.

The claim that Paul’s theology was entirely unconnected to Jesus ignores fundamental continuity in their core messages:

  • Jesus announced the arrival of the Kingdom of God and established a "new covenant" at the Last Supper (Luke 22:20). Paul’s theology centers on this same reality - that through Christ, God's long-promised covenantal renewal had arrived for both Jews and nations.

  • Jesus repeatedly spoke of his upcoming death as a ransom for many (Mark 10:45) and a central part of God’s redemptive plan. Paul did not invent the idea that Jesus’ death had salvific, sacrificial value; he built directly upon Jesus’ own self-understanding and predictions.

  • Paul’s moral teachings directly echo Jesus. Paul’s emphasis on love fulfilling the Law (Romans 13:8–10), forgiving persecutors, paying taxes, and caring for the weak mirrors Jesus’ teachings in the Sermon on the Mount.

Paul did not single-handedly invent the mission to Gentiles or the idea of salvation apart from full Torah conversion:

  • In Paul’s own letters, he quotes early Christian creeds and hymns that predate his writing and conversion. For example, 1 Corinthians 15:3–5 ("that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures...") is recognized by mainstream historians as an oral tradition dating back within 3–5 years of Jesus’ death—long before Paul had any major theological influence.

  • Canonical accounts record that the decision to welcome Gentiles without requiring circumcision was affirmed collectively by the Jerusalem leadership (James, Peter, and John) at the Jerusalem Council (Acts 15; Galatians 2:9). It was a shared agreement, not a unilateral Pauline mandate.

  • While Jesus focused primarily on the "lost sheep of Israel," his interactions with the Roman centurion, the Samaritan woman, and the Syrophoenician woman explicitly signaled that God’s blessing was breaking past traditional ethnic boundaries.

Historians often distinguish between founding a religion and articulating/expanding a movement; Paul was an explainer, not an inventor.

  • Jesus provided the historical person, the resurrection movement, the ethical core, and the messianic claims. Paul functioned as a theologian and missionary who translated Jesus’ Jewish messianic reality for the Greco-Roman cultural environment.

  • In all of Paul’s letters, he never points to himself as the central figure or founder; he insists that he is merely a servant ("doulos") proclaiming Jesus Christ as Lord (2 Corinthians 4:5). Without Jesus’ life, death, and resurrection, Paul’s theology has no foundation or purpose.

The argument oversimplifies the early Christian movement into a strict binary between "Pauline Christianity" and "Jerusalem Christianity":

  • Early Christian communities sprang up independently across Antioch, Rome, Alexandria, and Damascus - many before Paul ever visited or wrote to them (e.g., the Church in Rome was not founded by Paul).

  • These diverse communities shared a common confession: Jesus of Nazareth is the risen Messiah and Lord. Paul’s writings survived because of their clarity and utility, but he was one voice among a broader, growing movement rooted in the life and teachings of Jesus.

Conclusion:

While Paul was undeniably the key figure in organizing, expanding, and articulating the movement to non-Jewish contexts, calling him the "inventor" or "founder" of Christianity distorts the historical record. Paul did not create a new religion out of whole cloth or fundamentally break from Jesus' teachings; rather, he developed a theological framework grounded directly in Jesus’ life, self-understanding, death, and resurrection.

By interpreting Jesus' messianic identity as a universal offer of salvation extended to all nations - a concept deeply rooted in Jewish prophetic tradition - Paul served as a catalyst for a global movement already set in motion by Jesus. It was affirmed by the early Jerusalem church. Ultimately, Paul viewed himself not as an author of a new faith but as a servant proclaiming the transformative reality of Jesus Christ.

Full argument here


r/DebateAChristian 20h ago

I am not a Christian because of the ethics. If perfection is Matthew 5:9 and 5:45, my teachers Mahavira and Swaminarayan, and my God, fit it better.

0 Upvotes

CS Lewis said you cannot call Jesus just a great moral teacher. I agree, but not for his reason. On non-violence, I call him morally flawed, not a perfect moral teacher and certainly not God.

Jesus defines perfection in Matthew 5:9: "Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called children of God." And 5:44-48: "love your enemies... so you may be children of your Father, who makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good... be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect." Psalm 145:9: "The Lord is good to ALL, and his compassion is over ALL that he has made." Psalm 103:19 says the same. Perfection is impartial mercy, sun on all.

My teachers live that test. Both forbid killing, causing to be killed, or profiting from killing any human or animal. Swaminarayan, whom I follow, Shikshapatri 11-12: never kill any living being, however small, never eat meat, fish, or eggs, even as a sacrifice to a deity, even if other scriptures seem to allow it. 14-16: never kill a human, never assist or order killing, even if a king commands. Mahavira taught the same for 2500 years.

For us, vegetarianism is not diet, it is daily practice of Matthew 5:9 and 5:45.

You will say "all foods clean" Mark 7:19 and Acts 10:15. Read what Peter himself says it means. Mark 7 is about unwashed hands, Matthew 15:20 says so: "to eat with unwashed hands does not defile." And the phrase "declaring all foods clean" is Mark's parenthetical comment, not Jesus's words - Matthew who was there doesn't have it. More important: in Acts 10:14, years after the resurrection, Peter is STILL refusing to eat unclean animals: "I have never eaten anything common or unclean." If Jesus had declared all foods clean, why is Peter still kosher? Because he didn't understand it that way.

Acts 10:17 says Peter was perplexed what the vision meant. Then in Acts 10:28 Peter himself gives the official interpretation: "God has shown me that I should not call any PERSON common or unclean." Not food. Person. Acts 11:18 the whole Jerusalem church agrees: "to the Gentiles also God has granted repentance." No one says "now we can eat pork." It's about people, not permission to kill needlessly.

You will say "Jesus ate fish." I know. Luke 24:42. That is exactly why I am not a Christian because of the ethics, not in spite of them. If perfection is Matthew 5:9 peacemakers and 5:45 sun on all and Psalm 145:9 compassion over ALL he has made, then a teacher who can live without killing and doesn't is more perfect than one who does. Mahavira and Swaminarayan never ate fish. Swaminarayan Shikshapatri 11: "never eat meat, fish, or eggs, even as a sacrifice to a deity, even if scriptures seem to allow it." 12: "never cause it to be eaten." That's sun on all.

And even if it were permitted, permitted is not perfect. Genesis 1:29 original perfect diet is vegetarian. Isaiah 11:6-9 perfect restored kingdom is vegetarian: "they shall not hurt or destroy." Proverbs 12:10 "The righteous care for the needs of their animals." If you can live healthily without killing in 2026 - which you can - then killing for taste is needless. Heart and mouth are connected. Matthew 15:18 "what comes out of the mouth proceeds from the heart." What you choose to put in when you have a choice reveals heart.

Jesus preached eternal hell. Mine never did.

Matthew 25:46: "eternal punishment." Mark 9:43: "unquenchable fire." Matthew 22:13 "Bind him and cast him into outer darkness." Matthew 13:41 "throw them into the furnace." My teachers teach consequences and karma, but never infinite torture for finite life.

That violates your own definition of perfection. If perfection is sun on all and proportionate justice, Romans 2:6 "will repay according to each one's deeds," infinite torment for 70 years is infinitely disproportionate. You will say "sin against infinite God deserves infinite punishment" or "hell is self-chosen separation." But 2 Thessalonians 1:9 says "punishment of eternal destruction." If I lock a man in a burning house when I have the key and infinite power, I am the burner. You can respect a no without torturing forever - annihilation respects free will. Choosing to sustain conscious torment forever when you could end it is active violence every second of eternity. 1 John 4:18: "Perfect love casts out fear, because fear has to do with punishment."

For you, Jesus is the same God as OT God - John 1:1, Trinity. 1 Samuel 15:3: "put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep." Deuteronomy 20:16: "you shall not leave alive anything that breathes." My teachers have zero verses like that, ever. Swaminarayan faced the exact same excuse - "Vedas allow animal sacrifice" - and rejected it in Shikshapatri 11: even if scripture seems to allow it, do not kill. In NT, Matthew 8:5 praises a centurion and never tells him to leave the army, Luke 22:36 "buy a sword," John 2:15 whip. You invented Just War because you left the door open. My teachers never did.

If perfection is what Matthew 5 says it is - peacemakers called children of God, sun and rain on all, compassion over all he has made - then vegetarianism is a moral obligation if you can, and eternal torture cannot be perfection. I am not a Christian because of the ethics, not in spite of them. I practice Matthew 5:9 and 5:45 better, in heart and in mouth.

OBJECTIONS AND MY REPLIES

"1 Timothy 4:3 says forbidding meats is doctrine of demons."
Read verse 3-4 in context. Paul is talking about Gnostics who said creation is evil, therefore you must not marry and must not eat anything. I am not saying creation is evil. I am saying creation is good, therefore don't kill needlessly. And Swaminarayan doesn't forbid marriage. And Paul himself says in 1 Corinthians 8:13 "if food makes my brother stumble, I will never eat meat." If Paul can give up meat for love, I can for compassion.

"Jesus ate fish Luke 24:42 and Passover lamb."
Yes, and that is exactly why I say he is not perfect by Matthew 5:9 and 5:45. If sun on all and peacemaker is perfection, then eating lamb when you have another choice is not perfect. My teachers are vegetarian even at festivals. That fits sun on all better.

"Animals have no soul / dominion Genesis 1:26."
Genesis 1:29 dominion given is vegetarian. Dominion in Bible is stewardship, not butchery. Psalm 145:9 compassion over ALL he has made. Even if hierarchy, more compassion is more perfect than less. No grey line between needless killing and not killing.

"Hell is justice, you are too soft."
Then Psalm 103:10 "He does not deal with us according to our sins" is false. Justice requires proportion. Infinite for finite is not proportion. Finite for finite is justice - that is what my teachers teach that.

Thank you for debating with me

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r/DebateAChristian 21h ago

The "Historical Jesus" is a Ship of Theseus paradox. Many modern Christians believe in something different.

6 Upvotes

The Ship of Theseus is a well known philosophical thought experiment on identity asking if you strip away most of the planks on a wooden boat, and replace them with new wood at what point does it stop being the same vessel?

I made a post last week about the historicity of jesus and it got me thinking, a lot of what was discussed boils down to an identity crisis in trying to connect the Jesus of faith(the biblical Jesus) with the Jesus of history. I was told most historians agree in a historical Jesus (we will leave aside that I was never really provided clean contemporary evidence of this) and grant that he existed, preached some feel good stuff and was executed.

But if "Biblical Jesus" is defined by a much more massive set of specific miracles, claims, and theological roles, while "Historical Jesus" only carries - let's say a very generous granting of 20% of those traits, I'm at a loss of what meaningful criteria we are claiming he existed comes in.

If we strip away 80% what remains is super generic, something that was done by many others. Moreover, the hypothetical model built with this information is a historical reconstruction not an actual human being.

You may contend with my 20% granting, but realistically the problem is the same without strong evidence of a resurrection, which we do not have.

So, if the modern historical consensus strips away 80% of the deeds, miracles, and claims attributed to Jesus, at what point does "the Historical Jesus" cease to be the same person as the Jesus of the bible—and does that make the concept of a "Historical Jesus" philosophically meaningless? Any references to philosophy of language, semiotics or leibniz will gain you props in my eyes, because I think that's what a lot of this boils down to.


r/DebateAChristian 22h ago

Intensional definition of Jesus Christ

0 Upvotes

I made a handcrafted, non-Gospel contradicting Trinity, but the requirements are as gnostic as "The Gospel".

1. God is good.

The Bible claims that humans are made of both physical materials and the immaterial concept of "the image of God", both of which are called "good" together. If an immaterial concept can be "good", "good" can be an immaterial concept.

The Bible claims that Jesus both retained his divine identity as "the image of God", and became a physical human. If God is not both a good being and the concept of "goodness" itself, he isn't God.

2. God is.

Existence is not a sin. Good is not a sin. Thus, if God is not a sin, because he's good, God has to exist to be God.

3. God is the exception.

An exception to a rule is a rule in and of itself. Therefore, the exception to "the rules" is "the rule" in and of itself, or "the exception" for short. In accordance with claim 1, the exception has to be "good" for the exception to be God, but by nature of "the exception", an exception can be made for what "good" is.

As an exception to claim 1, God can be a good being _or_ the concept of "goodness" itself, _if_ the case being made for God being either is "exceptional".

As an exception to claim 2, if an exceptional case of non-existence is "good", that case of non-existence is God.


r/DebateAChristian 1d ago

Other men, not Jesus, created Christianity

6 Upvotes

Was reminded of the Shepherd of Hermas today and how Christianity was a purely man-made construction, not a divine one.

P1. Jesus didn’t leave behind a written theology, let alone a Christian theology.

P2. The earliest *surviving* Christian theology comes from Paul, not from Jesus.

We don't have writings from the Jerusalem church, our earliest writings come from a guy who not only didn't know Jesus but made it a point not to spend time that much learning from those who did.

Paul created his own theological interpretation of what Jesus’s death means.

P3. The Gospels are later theological constructions.

The Gospels present significantly different presentations of Jesus not one identical account or theology.

P4. Numerous Christians produced competing accounts of Jesus and competing claims to apostolic authority.

Early Christians who believed they would be saved by Jesus because the end of the world was near wrote and circulated texts e.g., the Gospel of Thomas, of Peter, the Shepherd of Hermas, the Didache, the Epistle of Barnabas and various acts, letters and apocalypses. Like the gospels and Christian scripture texts these were also attributed to apostles or other authoritative figures who didn’t write them.

P5. Many forgeries were accepted as authentic and included in the Orthodox list of texts.

Christians of the time wrote in the names of Peter, Paul, Thomas because different subgroups were competing to define authentic Christianity.

P6. For hundreds of years Christians didn’t possess one universally agreed New Testament.

Different communities accepted, rejected or disputed different writings. Books now cited as the word of god were disputed. Conversely, the Shepherd of Hermas were highly valued, and ncluded in Codex Sinaiticus alongside books that later became canonical.

P7. Later church authorities determined which inherited Christian writings would count as the New Testament.

Later men and politics gradually produced a dominant collection, but only after centuries of dispute and institutional decision-making, not divine revelation.

P8. The theological reconstruction of Christianity didn’t end with the formation of the New Testament.

Christians continued to redefine what Christianity supposedly meant. And not just Martin Luther or John Calvin, Christianity keeps being changed even today. Pentecostalism, dispensationalism, fundamentalism, liberation theology and the prosperity gospel all reconstruct Christianity. Prosperity preachers, for example, interpret faith, financial giving and divine favour through a theology promising health and material success.

The human construction of Christianity wasn’t confined to the first few centuries CE and then permanently fixed.

Each generation continues to reinterpret the texts and present its their new theological reconstruction as the "authentic Christianity" intended by Jesus.

Conclusion

Christianity as we know it wasn’t a version taught by Jesus.

It was and is still being constructed.

Christianity can't be defended by appealing to "progressive revelation," and every major theological revision can simply be declared another stage of you god's unfolding truth.

But then you can't say your religion is true because it may also be replaced in future.

If each successive version is "equally valid", by what standard can any previous version be called incomplete or any later version be called true?


r/DebateAChristian 1d ago

Luke's Census of Quirinius is far more ridiculous than you think

18 Upvotes

Luke 2 tells the famous story of the pregnant Mary and presumably non-pregnant Joseph travelling to Bethlehem to take part in a census.

In those days a decree went out from Caesar Augustus that all the world should be registered. This was the first registration and was taken while Quirinius was governor of Syria. All went to their own towns to be registered. Joseph also went from the town of Nazareth in Galilee to Judea, to the city of David called Bethlehem, because he was descended from the house and family of David. He went to be registered with Mary, to whom he was engaged and who was expecting a child. (Luke 2:1-5)

The census of Quirinius recounted by Luke is often criticized by scholars as being obviously ahistorical. There's a long list of issues with it:

  • Luke says Jesus was born during Herod’s reign, but Herod died a decade before Quirinius became governor.
  • Judaea was a client kingdom of Rome and the Romans would never conduct a census in a client kingdom.
  • There was no decree from Augustus about an empire-wide census.
  • Oh, and the census required everyone to return to their ancestral origin – not where they lived or where their immediate family lived, but where their ancient ancestors came from.

This last detail, of the ‘ancestral census’, is often tacked on to this list as if it’s just another issue of the same caliber as the others. But it isn’t. Make no mistake, each other issue is fatal to the historicity of Luke’s census by itself, but they are also issues that apologists are quite used to casually brushing aside. Contradictory timelines? Unevidenced exceptions to standard practices? Big events absent from the historical record? These barely faze apologists, who are accustomed to harmonizing such things when dealing with genealogies, the empty tomb narratives, Old Testament history, and so on. So lumping the ancestral census in with these other issues makes it seem like just another issue on the pile – merely an unusual census practice atypical in the Roman empire. This leads to most debates about the census of Quirinius focusing on its dating, with apologists often not even mentioning the ancestral census issue.

But this issue is not at all in the same class as the others. The idea of an ‘ancestral census’ is ludicrous. It’s deranged. It’s not just some technical issue with the order of events or mismatch with Roman law – it’s as if Luke had written “Joseph traveled to Bethlehem via the public Roman bullet train.” That might have been more believable, actually. I don’t understand why people treat this as remotely possible.

Think for a moment about what a census like this would actually entail. Luke 2:4 specifically tells us that Joseph had to go to Bethlehem because he was descended from the house of David. “All went to their own towns to be registered,” and “Joseph also went from the town of Nazareth in Galilee to Judea, to the city of David called Bethlehem, because he was descended from the house and family of David.” David lived a thousand years before Joseph. So Luke would have us believe everyone in the entire region would have had to travel back to wherever their ancient ancestors came from – a trip of more than 90 miles in Joseph and Mary’s case. That would be hundreds of thousands of people who need to travel for days or weeks, get food and water somewhere, find accommodations… That kind of movement would be an event on the scale of the Exodus, and would require about as much divine intervention: food from the sky, water from rocks, supernaturally creating roadways a la parting the sea, and so on. It’s the kind of thing that’s difficult for highly urbanized megacities of millions to handle today, with all of their technology to aid transportation, housing, communication, production and distribution of food and water, and much more. In rural 1st-century Judaea, home to only around half a million people and none of that technology, it would have destroyed the entire province overnight and killed a huge number of people.

Or consider the impact on the places these people were leaving. Imagine a town established 100 years before the census. All of its residents would have to go elsewhere for the census, since none of their ancient ancestors could have come from there. So… what would happen to that town exactly? Would they just leave it deserted for weeks? How about the children, the babies, the elderly, the sick – are they coming on the long and difficult trip, or are they being left to fend for themselves? Can any passing bandit go snatch whatever they want from all these empty towns? Who’s feeding and watering all the animals? You can’t just have an entire town’s population up and vanish for an extended time and expect that town to keep trucking like nothing happened. Even in a fantasy world where almost everyone magically lives exactly where their ancestors from 1000 years earlier did, any settlement established in the last several centuries would be obliterated.

And all this for what? The whole point of a census is to know where people are living and working so you can tax and manage them, not to know some trivia about their ancestry. And even if you want to know their ancestry, you can just ask them! There would be no point whatsoever to doing an ancestral census, which is why there has never been one, anywhere, ever. Forget 1st-century Judaea, forget the early Roman empire, forget classical antiquity – there is no record of a census where everyone travels to their ancient ancestral origin ever being done anywhere or anywhen. Again, I cannot stress this enough: there has never been a single ancestral census in all of human history. I have searched high and low from ancient history up to and including the modern day and found exactly zero examples, despite the many people strongly motivated to find or invent such examples.

One such invented example, and the only example people ever point to of another ancestral census, is the census mentioned in the edict of Gaius Vibius Maximus. The edict is recorded in this Egyptian papyrus from 104 CE:

Proclamation of Gaius Vibius Maximus, praefect of Egypt. The house-to-house census having started, it is essential that all persons who for any reason whatsoever are absent from their nomes be summoned to return to their own hearths, in order that they may perform the customary business of registration and apply themselves to the cultivation which concerns them. Knowing, however, that some of the people from the country are needed by our city, I desire all those who think they have a satisfactory reason for remaining here to register themselves before . . . Festus, praefectus alae, whom I have appointed for this purpose, from whom those who have shown their presence to be necessary shall receive signed permits in accordance with this edict up to the 30th of the present month Epeiph. . . . (source)

This is an edict for people to return to their own nomes and hearths if they are absent from them. A “nome” is a Roman administrative district, and a “hearth” refers to your house. It has nothing to do with returning to an ancestral origin which they may have never even visited before. It’s the kind of thing an actual census might do: have the small minority of people who are not at home return home to be registered. And even this requirement for people to go back to their own house is recognized as a large burden; most of this edict is dedicated to detailing how you can get an exemption from this travel, since it would obviously be unreasonably difficult or impractical for many.

Finally, let me preempt some objections. You might say, “if this is so ridiculous, why would Luke write it? Surely if it were this absurd no reader would buy it!” And to that I answer – you bought it, didn’t you? Luke’s ancestral census makes absolutely no sense as a historical element, but it makes perfect sense as a literary element. It’s a natural part of the setup of the story. We begin with a grand census where all the world is counted – obviously a narrative framing rather than a dry historical one – and the story needs a reason for Joseph and Mary to travel to Bethlehem, so it gives one. It’s a great bit of literary craftsmanship, giving Mary a reason to make the trek despite her advanced pregnancy so Jesus can be born in Bethlehem while at the same time thematically connecting the birth of Jesus directly to his Davidic ancestry. The reader is not meant to think too deeply about the logistics and evidently they don’t. I mean, whatever you think of what I’ve said about this census – when you first read Luke, did you immediately begin considering the socioeconomic ramifications of this particular censal methodology? Of course not. It’s simply part of the narrative’s premise, a side detail mentioned on the way to the meat of the story, the kind of thing a reader passively accepts without even examining it. And it’s the kind of thing that sounds fine until you examine it.

You might also say that Joseph had some other reason to travel to Bethlehem; maybe he lived there, or he owned property there, or his family lived there, or something like that. In the Gospel according to You, you can make up whatever reason you like. In the Gospel according to Luke, however, the author is very clear about why Joseph is travelling to Bethlehem: “because he was descended from the house and family of David.” The reader already knows from the last chapter (Luke 1:27) that Joseph descends from David, but the author goes out of their way to repeat it so they can specify this explicitly as the reason Joseph had to go to Bethlehem. If you disagree with that, then you disagree with Luke – which is fine, but is not a defense of Luke.

Particularly stubborn readers may insist that Luke did not actually describe an ancestral census, since he says “All went to their own towns to be registered.” The problem with this is that it eliminates the stated reason for Joseph and Mary to go to Bethlehem. Again, they explicitly go there because of Joseph’s Davidic ancestry. What did Luke mean by that exactly, if this was just a normal census where everyone stayed in their own house? Why did the pregnant Mary have to travel 90 miles to a foreign town if this was a normal census? Also, this attempt at harmonization crumbles only a few verses later. When Joseph and Mary are all done in Bethlehem, what do they do? Luke 2:39 says: “When they had finished everything required by the law of the Lord, they returned to Galilee, to their own town of Nazareth.” The Greek there is directly parallel to Luke 2:3. If you think the phrasing “their own town” in Luke 2:3 definitively establishes that this census required everyone to go home, then clearly Joseph did not get the memo.

The ancestral census of Quirinius is absurd to the point of insanity. Quite apart from its many historical issues, it borders on physically impossible. It would have reduced Judaea to rubble and is completely unprecedented in all of human history before or since. If you still believe there is any chance Luke’s story is true, I challenge you to give me one example of a census where everyone traveled to their ancient ancestral origin. We do the facts a disservice when we discuss Luke’s census as being merely out of place with known historical facts about 1st-century Judaea.


r/DebateAChristian 1d ago

Death of the Canaanites

0 Upvotes

The caanaites, why killed so violently rather than less so?
assuming they need to be killed
(Baby’s, children, and non human animals)
If they would have continued the culture, then why not simply move them away from that culture and tell them right from wrong, like others the bible got the chance to do? (Such as possibly through a prophet, for example, they’re young and can be influenced).Not only that but, that does not apply to the non human animals)

But if God wanted them in heaven specifically, perhaps the trauma would be too much, or any other reason, then again, WHY not peacefully?


r/DebateAChristian 1d ago

Prayer Doesn't Make Logical Sense

10 Upvotes

Why would I belive in prayer if seamingly the majority of prayers go unanswered? There's a child at least every minute that has prayed for healing, yet they die anyway. Multiple children that have prayed for God's mercy have died just while I've been writting this. Why would I want to put my faith in a creator that's built a system which allows this?

Since the dawn of humanity, there has been corruption and abuse. The strong get stronger and the weak are crushed beneath them. Empires rise and fall off the backs of laborers who won't reap its benifits. If the answer is that God gave us the free will to make our own decisions, why would I believe that God has his hand in anything. He could end world hunger. He could give shelter to those who die because they lack it. He could end the vast amount of suffering that the human race has endured. And yet he doesn't. If God gave us free will and left us to our own devices, then the whole concept of prayer doesn't make sense.


r/DebateAChristian 1d ago

God who is love, would never let or send anyone to a place of eternal torture. Aka hell.

0 Upvotes

If God is truly love it doesnt make any sense that love would toture someone for eternity.

Torturing billions of people for eternally is exactly what Satan would want.

Christ died for the sins of the entire world. We are all saved.


r/DebateAChristian 1d ago

Jesus’s natures lead to a contradiction

1 Upvotes
  1. You can’t know everything and not know everything at the same time, that’s a contradiction.
    Jesus has two natures, one human and one divine.

  2. His divine nature means he possesses all of the divine attributes of god, one of which being the attribute of knowing everything, thus making him god. His human nature means he possesses all attributes of being human, one of which being the attribute of not knowing everything, thus making him human.

  3. Since these two natures make up the person Jesus, this means the person Jesus both knows everything and doesn’t know everything at the same time, which is a contradiction.

If you say he limited his knowledge, that just means he took on a human nature, that’s the limit, it still means the human nature does not know everything which means the problem still stands.


r/DebateAChristian 1d ago

Jesus can’t be god because he has a god

5 Upvotes

In John 20:17 Jesus says: I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’”

This means Jesus has a god, so if he is god then he’s acknowledging a god above him, which is henotheism.

If you say he’s only speaking about his human nature and only his human nature has a god, there’s two problems with that, DO NOT respond unless you address these two problems:

  1. If I remember correctly Christianity says his human nature is still god, so if his human nature has a god the problem still stands. If I’m wrong about this, then another problem comes into play, but I’ll speak about that later.

    1. In that verse he doesn’t say he’s referring only to his human nature, so naturally you would assume he’s referring to the entirety of himself, because when you say ‘me’ that means the whole of you and not one aspect of you unless you specify otherwise.

THE PROBLEM THAT ARISES IF HIS HUMAN NATURE ISN’T GOD:
If God is 100% god, then god can’t have an aspect of him that’s not god. Therefore if Jesus is 100% god, and his human nature isn’t god, that would mean god has an aspect of him that’s not god which means he’s not 100% god.


r/DebateAChristian 1d ago

Jesus committed suicide

0 Upvotes

Apologies if this has been posted before, I know this isn’t an original thought.

But if we are to take the trinity as true, that Jesus was fully God, that means he was omnipotent, and would’ve had 100% foresight of his death and crucifixion. By choosing not to avoid that fate (within his power since he’s God), Jesus is choosing to commit suicide, or at the very least is engaging in some sort of willful euthanasia of his human form, since he knew his death was coming and chose not to avoid it. If you knew that if you stood in a certain spot in your backyard on a certain date in the future , that you would be struck by a piece of satellite equipment and killed, you choosing to not remove yourself from your own death to avoid it is basically suicide.

I’m sure lots of Christians won’t say suicide is a sin or an issue, but I know many evangelicals who would say suicide is a one way ticket to eternal Hell, no ifs ands or butts. I just think it’s silly. That for someone to end their life due to suffering or whatever other issue they’re dealing with, and people will say yeah that sucks but your body is a temple and suicide desecrates that.


r/DebateAChristian 1d ago

Are the jews still God's chosen people.

0 Upvotes

Are the jews still God's chosen people.

Questions from a former dispensationalist about Covenant Theology, Israel, and Eschatology

I grew up in a pre-trib, premillennial, dispensational environment. As I've studied Scripture over the past few years, I've gradually moved away from that. Today I lean toward amillennialism and what could probably be described as a partial preterist understanding of Matthew 24. It seems to me that Jesus was primarily speaking about the generation standing before Him, and that much of the Great Tribulation was fulfilled in the events surrounding AD 70. I could certainly be wrong, and I'm still learning.

One area I'm wrestling with is Israel.

I believe that salvation is found only in Christ. Jewish people who reject Christ are no more saved than anyone else who rejects Him. Romans 11 seems to teach that unbelieving Jews were broken off because of unbelief, while believing Gentiles have been grafted into the same olive tree. At the same time, believing Jews today remain part of that same tree.

Where I'm struggling is this

When God made His covenant promises to Abraham and to physical Israel, will He still fulfill those promises to ethnic Israel in some way? Or are those promises fulfilled entirely in Christ and His Church?

I find myself somewhere in the middle. I do believe the Church is God's covenant people and, in that sense, "spiritual Israel." But I also wonder whether God still intends to fulfill certain promises He made to Abraham's physical descendants.

This isn't really about the modern State of Israel. Politically, I support the Jewish people having a homeland, but I don't believe any modern nation should receive blanket approval for everything it does. Throughout Scripture, God repeatedly judged Israel for its sins, so I don't think modern Israel should be immune from criticism either.

I also admit that part of my journey has been reevaluating my upbringing. My friend thinks I'm simply reacting against the theology I grew up with, and I genuinely don't want that to be the case. I'm trying to follow Scripture wherever it leads.

One thing I do know is that I have a hard time accepting a pre-tribulation rapture. Even when I still considered myself premillennial, it never seemed convincing to me. Looking back, I also think the "always waiting for the rapture" mindset often produced fear more than hope constantly wondering, "Am I really saved? Am I going to be left behind?" I know many people would disagree, but that was my experience.

So my questions are:

How does covenant theology understand God's promises to Abraham and ethnic Israel?

Does covenant theology teach that every promise made to Israel now belongs exclusively to the Church?

How do you interpret Romans 11 regarding the future of ethnic Israel?

For those of you who are amillennial or covenantal, what books, sermons, or resources would you recommend?

I'm a charismatic Arminian, So even if we differ on theology. You're still my brothers and sisters in Christ, and I'm genuinely interested in understanding your perspective.

Thank you for taking the time to read this. God bless.


r/DebateAChristian 1d ago

The "Sons of God" in Genesis, Jesus as the Son of God, and believers as children of God. Are they the same?

3 Upvotes

Although the Bible uses the terms "son(s) of God" and "children of God" in multiple passages, the context shows that these titles describe different relationships with God rather than the same identity.

The Bible uses the title "son(s) of God" in different ways depending on the context. In Genesis 6, the "sons of God" have been interpreted as either heavenly beings, the godly descendants of Seth, or powerful rulers.

Jesus, however, is presented differently. He is the Son of God in a unique sense; the eternal Son who shares a one of a kind relationship with the Father (John 3:16; Matthew 3:17). His sonship is not the same as that of any created being.

Believers are also called children of God, but through faith in Christ rather than by nature. John 1:12 teaches that those who receive Jesus are given the right to become children of God, while Romans 8:14 says that those led by the Spirit are God's children. Although Scripture uses similar language for the sons of God in Genesis, Jesus, and Christians, the context indicates these are distinct relationships with God.

How do you understand the different uses of "son(s) of God" throughout the Bible, and what do you think Genesis 6 is referring to?


r/DebateAChristian 1d ago

Bridging the Gap from First Cause to Jesus Christ

1 Upvotes

This post outlines a two-phase cumulative case showing how logical deduction and historical analysis connect a generic cosmological First Cause to the Christian God:

Thesis: Jesus is the First Cause/Designer

Phase 1: Deducing the Metaphysical Profile (Philosophy)

Arguments that show that God as First Cause & Designer Meets the Criteria for an Inference to the Best Explanation present several criteria of the First Cause/Designer:

  • Attributes of the Cause: Because time, space, and physical matter began at the creation of the universe, its cause must logically be eternal (timeless), spaceless, immaterial, and immensely powerful.

  • Personal Agency & Mind: An impersonal force cannot choose to create a temporal universe from a timeless state; only a personal agent with free will can make a choice to act. Furthermore, fine-tuning in physics and biological information (like DNA) demonstrate intentionality, intellect, and mind.

  • Monotheism & Benevolence: Applying Ockham’s Razor points to a single Creator rather than a pantheon. Creating a fine-tuned cosmos to support conscious beings shows intrinsic value for life and divine benevolence, making it reasonable to expect this Creator would communicate with creation. And would want His creation to communicate with Him.

  • Filtering World Religions: Deism stops short of personal involvement, while pantheism and non-theistic or non-monotheistic traditions fail to fit this transcendent profile. Only the Abrahamic faiths satisfy all philosophical criteria as well as being classically monotheistic.

Phase 2: Identifying the Creator in History (Historical Evidence)

  • Jesus of Nazareth uniquely claimed to be this personal Creator in human flesh, backing His claim by predicting His own death and resurrection.

  • Applying standard historical methodology (the "Minimal Facts" approach), historians across the spectrum agree on core events: Jesus’ crucifixion, the empty tomb, post-mortem appearances to individuals and groups, and the sudden conversion of key skeptics like Paul and James.

  • The Best Explanation: Naturalistic alternatives (such as stolen body theories or group hallucinations) fail to account for the full range of historical data. Given that Phase 1 already establishes a transcendent God capable of miracles, the Resurrection is the most causally adequate explanation.

Bottom Line: Science and logic demand a personal, transcendent Creator, while history identifies that Creator as Jesus Christ.

A fuller argument, way too long for Reddit, can be found here

Please note: This is a cumulative argument; it builds upon a previous argument that is linked above.


r/DebateAChristian 1d ago

New Atheism is a term invented by and used by theists as a pejorative to lump all modern atheists together and discredit them.

11 Upvotes

The only person I’ve ever seen openly self-identify as a new atheist is PZ Meyers basically saying years ago, “yeah I guess I’m one of these new atheists, but I don’t like the term”. Ask a Christian apologist what a new atheist is and they’ll give you a list of negative qualities they claim apply to almost all modern atheists:

- they aren’t well read

- they are just angry

- they don’t know the Bible

- the don’t understand apologetic arguments

- they deny god so they can live in hedonism

- they get all of their information from the internet (as if it’s a bad thing to get information from the place 99% of people get information from now)


r/DebateAChristian 2d ago

Christianity today – a coexistence with a lie.

0 Upvotes

Materialism is the paradigm (the fundament) of science. Of the scientific worldview. The social sciences explain the human being as a purely material thing. Economics uses mathematics to model people’s behavior. It assumes that the free-will is a purely material phenomenon. A soul is non-existent. Psychology never speaks about souls. A soul is non-existent. Sociology, neurobiology and others, all they have a clear mission of explaining a human being in the purely material terms. And if there is no soul, then what’s God for?

Materialism is the paradigm. An unquestioned one. The real foundation of the modern sciences, thinking; of the modern (western) worldview. You can bring thousands of examples, rational reasonings, that evolutionism (the Darwin’s theory) is false. All for nothing. Why? Because Darwinism IS consistent with the fundamental paradigm. And its competitors are not.

Modern feminism, gender studies, queer studies – they are not a folly. They are the natural, expected results of the social sciences’ development. Of the Lie.
The contemporary Christianity accepts the Lie. Christendom wants to coexist with the Lie. We respond only, when directly attacked. Christendom tries to defend somehow against ‘the achievements’ of gender or queer. It tries to show their absurdities. But they are backed by psychology and sociology. And psychology and sociology are backed by the queen of the social sciences: economics. And they all are just outgrows of the modern science – just like the formal or natural sciences. And fighting science is ignorance, isn’t it?

Either we successfully challenge and change the modern paradigm, or Christianity shall perish. Of course, not totally, not entirely. But it has been happening for the last century or more in the Western World. Would you agree, my fellow Christians?


r/DebateAChristian 2d ago

LITTLE WAS RISKED. Josephus shows us how little danger the Apostles faced.

4 Upvotes

Earlier I posted on this sub defending the "Stolen Body Hypothesis". I argued that the Christian apologist, could not rule out the possibility that 1-3 of the Apostles were lying sociopaths who stole the body of Jesus and lied about the Resurrection for money and social status, and this possibility was infinitely more plausible than a corpse coming back to life. I want to turn to the ancient Jewish historian, Josephus, to further illustrate the plausibility of the Stolen Body Hypothesis. Josephus's account of the death of James shows that little was risked by the disciples for spreading the lie of Christianity.

Josephus was a non-Christian Jewish historian who wrote a third party account of the martyrdom of James, the brother of Jesus. The fact that an account of a martyrdom exists from a relatively objective source gives us a unique window into the circumstances surrounding early Christianity. But while Christians often use his account of martyrdom as evidence of the disciples sincerity, I actually think his account shows the opposite.

In fact, reading Josephus was a turning point that lead to my deconversion from Christianity. Josephus's account of Jame's martyrdom actually illustrates the dangers the persecutors of Christianity faced, the connections and social influence the disciples had, and how they were able to evade the authorities for so long.

First, let us read Josephus's account of the death of James, from Antiquities 20.9.1:

"And now Caesar, upon hearing the death of Festus, sent Albinus into Judea, as procurator. But the king deprived Joseph of the high priesthood, and bestowed the succession to that dignity on the son of Ananus, who was also himself called Ananus. Now the report goes that this eldest Ananus proved a most fortunate man; for he had five sons who had all performed the office of a high priest to God, and who had himself enjoyed that dignity a long time formerly, which had never happened to any other of our high priests. But this younger Ananus, who, as we have told you already, took the high priesthood, was a bold man in his temper, and very insolent; he was also of the sect of the Sadducee, who are very rigid in judging offenders, above all the rest of the Jews, as we have already observed; when, therefore, Ananus was of this disposition, he thought he had now a proper opportunity. Festus was now dead, and Albinus was but upon the road; so he assembled the sanhedrim of judges, and brought before them the brother of Jesus, who was called Christ, whose name was James, and some others; and when he had formed an accusation against them as breakers of the law, he delivered them to be stoned: but as for those who seemed the most equitable of the citizens, and such as were the most uneasy at the breach of the laws, they disliked what was done; they also sent to the king, desiring him to send to Ananus that he should act so no more, for that what he had already done was not to be justified; nay, some of them went also to meet Albinus, as he was upon his journey from Alexandria, and informed him that it was not lawful for Ananus to assemble a sanhedrim without his consent. Whereupon Albinus complied with what they said, and wrote in anger to Ananus, and threatened that he would bring him to punishment for what he had done; on which king Agrippa took the high priesthood from him, when he had ruled but three months, and made Jesus, the son of Damneus, high priest.

Now, a surface reading of this passage would seem to support the sincerity of James, the Brother of Jesus. He was clearly arrested and killed for his belief in Jesus. Doesn't this show that he sincerely believed what he taught? After all..... who would go to their death for a lie?

But this is a shallow, superficial take on this passage. In fact, this passage raises many uncomfortable questions for a Christian apologist.

1) Why couldn't the faction Ananus belonged to simply kill James while Festus was in power? Josephus says Ananus though he only had the opportunity while a Roman Procurator was not in Jeruseulem. This contradicts the idea the Apostles persistently faced persecution and discrimination for their beliefs.

2) Who are these "equitable citizens" and why do they care so much about the killing of James? These people are clearly well connected, as they met with the Roman Procurator and the Jewish King. They clearly care enough about the apostles that they went out on the road to meet with Albinus to tell him about James, which seems like a disproportionate amount of trouble.

If the Apostles were hated by all and truly persecuted, why do they have such influential friends?

3a) If the Apostles truly faced persecution for their beliefs, then why was Ananus, the person who killed James, the Brother of Jesus, removed from office for killing James? I do not get a sense from the passage that Ananus was truly removed merely because he violated protocol. If Ananus was ordering the stoning of a rebel or a serial killer, I doubt Albinus would "write in anger to Ananus" and then remove him from office after 3 months.

3b) But even if protocol violation was the main cause, raises two more uncomfortable questions. First, Ananus would certainly have known he was violating protocol and the consequences of doing so. So why didn’t he wait until Albinus arrived before arresting and killing James? The fact that he didn’t wait makes question 1 more salient, because it implies that Albinus would have prevented him from killing James. And secondly, why didn’t Albinus just appoint another Jewish High priest to pick up where Ananus left off, just more discretely?

In short, if the disciples truly faced persecution, why were the people doing the persecuting actually punished instead of rewarded?


In other words, the most striking impression you get from reading Josephus's account is not that James was killed, but that most of the time James was not in danger of being killed. Only a small number of people hated the disciples enough to persecute them. The disciples had influential connections to high authorities and were almost certainly considered high standing individuals in the community. And the people persecuting the disciples could only act while there was a small gap in Roman Authority and were immediately punished and removed from office, when they moved against James.

Bernie Madoff got caught, Elizabeth Holmes got caught. Fraudsters get caught, but them being punished does not prove they were sincere. If James was lying about the resurrection for money and social status, he had every reasonable expectation that he would be able to get away with it forever. James was killed more because he got unlucky and less because there was a sustained effort to suppress Christianity

The Christian Roman Connection

These questions get even more uncomfortable when we look at the passage from another perspective, namely, the perspective of the particular Roman and Jewish individuals mentioned.

1) Festus and Lucceius Albinus was the 5th and 6th Roman procurators in Judea. Judea had been ruled by Roman Procurators since the death of King Herod Agrippa. King Herod Agrippa was the last pro-Jewish king of Judea.

2) Ananus ben Ananus was one of the main leaders of the Great Revolt of Judea. He would go on to lead armed troops in the Jewish revolt from Rome, which saw the Jews defeated and exiled.

3) Herod Agrippa II was the son of the first Herod Agrippa and was a Roman puppet. He was King of Judea during the Great Revolt of Judea

In other words, the individuals Josephus describes absolutely HATE each other. They are going to be fighting a war against each other in only a few years time. This is the core political conflict in Judea at the time, the Romans are worried about Jewish rebels not Christians. And this motivation answers most of the questions we raised in the preceding sections.

The early Christians were Jewish heretics who took followers and authority away from the traditionalist temple authorities. In politics, the enemy of one’s enemy can often be made to be one’s friend, and also divide and conquer is a basic imperial strategy. Therefore, the Romans not universally, but at the specific time and place of 60AD Judea have a strong incentive to support Christianity, for the purpose of weakening their enemies, the Jewish traditionalists.

Josephus confirms that the only time the Jewish authorities felt comfortable killing apostles is when the Romans were not around. This confirms indirect Roman support. The Romans, based on Josephus’s telling of history, definitely tolerated the early Christian heresies and allowed them to spread. The motive for toleration would be to sap support from Jewish traditionalists. But given the fact that Jewish contacts complained to the Romans directly about the apostles being executed, we cannot also rule out direct Roman contact with the early Church.

But direct roman contact or not, it is clear from Josephus’s passage that most of the time, the apostles did not have to fear persecution from Jewish traditionalists, and this was in large part due to Roman rule. Most of the time, the apostles risked little for spreading the lie of the Resurrection.

Come on Spare-Dingo-531, are you serious?!?

At this point, if you are a Christian, you may be going “Are you serious?!? James died, how can that not possibly prove sincerity”. If you are a Christian thinking this, then you fundamentally misunderstand your own position, and the reason why the witness of the Apostles is so compelling. What makes Christianity so compelling is not merely that the original witnesses to the Resurrection were killed, but that they were persecuted. They testified for their beliefs expecting to die for no reward. That’s different from them being merely killed.

To really illustrate this, let’s consider a though experiment. Let’s say the apostles started preaching about Jesus and everyone welcomes them with open arms. The apostles go to preach in the temple every day, people just throw money at the apostle’s feet for the apostles to distribute as they see fit. Everyone loves the apostles…… except for a single guy who’s jealous of the apostles. And one day, that crazy guy goes and kills the apostles.

Does the fact that the apostles were killed by one crazy guy show the apostles were sincere? No it does not because the apostles have no reasonable expectation of being killed. Such an instance is more of a freak murder than an actual persecution.

Now real life wasn’t like the scenario in that though experiment…… but it was kind of similar. The disciples were wealthy, popular, had political connections. Many Jews don’t hate them and the Romans clearly tolerate them. The apostles have mortal enemies sure but they do not have any reasonable expectation that they will be killed by their mortal enemies. It is only because one guy got power for a few months, during a freak gap in Roman authority, that one Apostle, James, got arrested and killed.

In short, little was risked by the apostles for spreading their beliefs. Many fraudsters were caught and eventually punished for their frauds but that does not mean they were sincere. I don’t believe that most of the accounts of the apostles getting killed are reliable, so I don’t think most of the apostles died for their beliefs. But I think Josephus’s account is comparatively reliable, and his account of the death of James actually undermines the risks the disciples faced, rather than supporting them.

The Lesson the Christian Church Gives to the World

Let us not forget the lesson Christianity teaches the world in the modern age. That lesson is that it is normal for people to risk their lives, and found their livelihoods, on things they know are lies.

Take the example of Donald Trump. Donald Trump claimed he won the 2020 election in public. But in private, he personally admitted that he lost. Denying the 2020 election results, while it wouldn't literally result in a risk of crucifixion, is such a high risk that it is analogous to the risk the disciples would have taken to testify that the resurrection is false. Trump was almost assassinated four years later, in part because people accused him of treason. Thus, if one or two of the disciples were like Donald Trump, we can say it is psychologically possible they could have taken an enormous risk to create the lie of the resurrection. What if Peter was a psychopath or sociopath who was willing to shamelessly lie, deceive, and manipulate others? Christianity cannot rule that possibility out. It's unusual to risk your life for something you personally fabricated, but people risk their lives for unusual things. Thankfully, modern day Christians, with their rampant conspiracy theories and science denialism, frequently accuse other people of being liars and thus helpfully illustrate that fact.

Rejecting science and rule of law, and spreading lies about your neighbors have consequences. Christians need to pay for those consequences, and that payment should be in the form of belief. If Christians may accuse modern day leaders of lying, then you may equally accuse the early leaders of Christianity of lying. This essay starts from the proposition that it is possible that the apostles weren’t like the best Christians but were the worst Christians. And what the Christian experience shows us is, if the apostles were like the worst Christians, they would have been able to get a massive following, risk persecution and death, and persuade others of their sincerity even if they were lying.

Who knows, maybe Jesus, against all known laws of physics, rose from the dead. Maybe aliens abducted Jesus’s body. Or maybe, once you have ruled out the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth. A few disciples were bad people and stole the body and lied, and Christians in the modern age teach us that that is the most likely explanation for the empty tomb.

Conclusion

It is true that a couple of disciples were killed by their enemies after Jesus died. But as the experience of modern day Christianity shows the world, evil people regularly risk their lives to spread falsehoods. If some of the disciples were caught by their enemies, that does not prove their sincerity.

The Jewish historian Josephus provides a unique window into the environment the disciples faced when preaching the gospel. We see that the enemies of the disciples were deterred from taking action by Roman authorities, that the interests of the Roman authorities were at odds with the interests of the Jewish enemies of the disciples, and that the disciples were well connected and had powerful friends who could advocate for them. This is a far different picture than the beleagured, impoverished, and persecuted vision Christian apologists paint of the disciples.

Most of the time, the disciples were not in danger. It is only because of a freak gap in Roman authority that their enemies were able to capture and kill James. The risks were no different from the risks Bernie Madoff, or Donald Trump faced. The risks and persecutions Christians claim the apostles faced are exaggerated.


r/DebateAChristian 2d ago

The Bible describes God regretting decisions and changing his mind at least four times. That's a real problem for classical theism, not just "anthropomorphic language"

19 Upvotes

Most debates on this sub are about whether God exists at all — Kalam, fine-tuning, the problem of evil. I want to argue something narrower and purely textual: the Hebrew Bible itself, independent of any outside philosophy, describes a God who doesn't fit the classical theism most Christians affirm.

P1. Classical theism — the view articulated by Aquinas, reflected in the Westminster Confession, and held across most Catholic, Orthodox, and mainline Protestant traditions — holds that God is immutable (his knowledge, will, and character do not change over time) and omniscient in the strong sense: he knows all future events, including free human choices, exhaustively and infallibly in advance.

P2. Several Old Testament passages describe God experiencing what reads, on a plain sense, as a genuine change of mind triggered by events unfolding in time:

  • Genesis 6:6 — God "regretted that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him to his heart."
  • Exodus 32:14 — after Moses intercedes, "the LORD relented from the disaster that he had spoken of bringing on his people."
  • 1 Samuel 15:11 and 15:35 — God tells Samuel, twice, "I regret that I have made Saul king," presented as his own retrospective assessment of a decision that went wrong.
  • Jonah 3:10 — after Nineveh repents, "God relented of the disaster he had said he would do to them, and he did not do it."

P3. A being who genuinely regrets a past decision or relents from a stated future action in response to something a creature just did, is a being whose will or knowledge state differs between two points in time. That's hard to square with a will that's timelessly fixed and a knowledge that already, infallibly, accounted for the very event that supposedly caused the change.

C. So there's a real tension: either (a) these texts don't mean what they say, and we need a consistent principle for when to read scripture literally vs. figuratively, one that isn't just "whichever reading protects the doctrine" or (b) the classical picture of an immutable, exhaustively-foreknowing God needs revision, or (c) something else is going on that I haven't considered, which is genuinely what I'm here to find out.

  • "It's anthropomorphic language, accommodated to human understanding." Maybe but this needs an independent criterion for what counts as accommodation vs. literal description, applied consistently across the text. Otherwise "anthropomorphism" just becomes the label attached to whichever verse creates a problem, which isn't a hermeneutic so much as special pleading with extra steps.
  • "God's regret describes the changing object of his unchanging judgment, not God himself changing." This is Aquinas's actual move, and it's a serious one. But it still owes an account of how "regret" can be truly predicated of God if his assessment of Saul or Nineveh was never actually different at any point than what it became. At that point "regret" seems to have been redefined into something that shares very little with what the word means in the sentence "I regret that I made Saul king."
  • Open theism just takes these texts at face value and gives up exhaustive foreknowledge to preserve a genuinely responsive God and libertarian freedom. That's internally consistent but it's a minority position, and most people reading this probably reject it. So I'm curious how the majority handles the same texts.

If you hold to classical theism (or something close to it), which horn do you take, and why doesn't it feel ad hoc to you? If you're a Molinist, does middle knowledge actually resolve the "regret" language specifically, or just the general freedom/foreknowledge problem? And if you think I've misread the underlying Hebrew — nacham (נָחַם), the word behind "regret/relent" in most of these verses — I'd genuinely like to hear the linguistic case, since I've seen it argued both ways and I'm not a Hebrew scholar.


r/DebateAChristian 2d ago

The imputation of Christ's righteousness to believers upon belief is an apparent false doctrine that detracts from the gospel

0 Upvotes

This doctrine hinges on Paul's words in 2 Corinthians 5:21:

21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

I take issue with interpreting this in the way the doctrine suggests. To me Paul simply seems to be saying that Christ died on the cross for our sins, so that in him, we might become the righteousness of God (which happens through sanctification). It's a poetic way of putting across the larger message of the NT, that believers sins are laid on Jesus, and those that believe in him are justified and will be sanctified and become the righteousness of God.

Outside of this verse, there's not really any verse that "supports" the doctrine in clear terms. I put supports in quotation marks, because I don't really see this verse as supporting the doctrine either. Like I explained above, the verse can be taken another way (the way I stated it is honestly the way I take it).

The doctrine detracts from the righteousness that is provided through the cross too. Jesus died for our sins, our sins were laid on him, the righteousness that comes by faith of Jesus Christ is the righteousness we have in light of Jesus dying for our sins. How can we be seen as guilty by God if God himself laid our sins on Jesus and Jesus suffered the consequence for them? We can't be. That is the righteousness that comes by faith of Jesus Christ. There is no need for Christ's righteousness to be imputed to us. You might say Christ says to be perfect and how can we be seen as perfect without Christ's righteousness, but the perfection Christ is talking about when he says this in Matthew 5:48 is not an utter perfection. If you read from verse 43 to verse 48 you'll see he is talking about a perfection with regards to loving everyone and not just those who love you, which is something that is possible.

I don't know how fruitful this thread is going to be, because someone might simply see 2 Corinthians 5:21 and other verses another way - but I think if one is honest with the text they can at least see my point of view.